HN Explorer

Online Notarization now Legal (notary.signnow.com)

40 points by caseya ↗ HN
This is a great example of a disruptive technology startup. SignNow has created NotaryNow and helped lead the charge to get the online notarization bill passed in Virginia, which came into effect on July 1st so now people can notarize documents from anywhere in just minutes.

25 comments

[ 317 ms ] story [ 591 ms ] thread
aeontech
Very interesting. I would make the "Legal" in intro, and in feature list a link - people will want to know the details, and most of them will not click the tiny link in the footer to the FAQ.
caseya
Appreciate the feedback there. We'll include the link up there for our next push.
Anechoic
Is finding a notary really that much of a hassle these days? Every bank I've had an account at had a notary on staff who would notarize documents for free (my current bank has three branches within three miles of my house, all open 7 days per week, and late hours - however I'm sure not everyone is so fortunate).
vishaldpatel
Have you ever ordered something from Amazon instead of driving 1.5 miles to the Home Hardware down the street? I'm somewhat ashamed to say that I have. Never again!! lol..
devinfoley
I'm very excited about this, but it would be nice to see the price without having to first upload a document.
caseya
We'll be adding pricing to the homepage this week as well. For everybody reading this, it's $14.95 per notarization.
jdelsman
That's pretty expensive considering most banks do it for free, even when you have a free account with them...
hippich
Would you mind telling why it is more expensive than traditional offline notarization (6-7 dollars)? Do you have specific expenses?
mattjaynes
I'm very happy to pay that price. It was annoying though that the pricing was hidden and I had to come to the comments here to discover the price.

I hope you ignore the people that complain and nitpick the price. They may be the most vocal, but there are plenty of us who value our time more than money and 15 bucks is a great deal.

That said, don't make me hunt down the price. It wastes my time and energy. Display the price and you'll generate goodwill with the customers that actually matter.

steve8918
If I receive a document notarized by this service, how can I trust that this service has done its due diligence? From a cursory look, I just can't believe that a document can be notarized online without even knowing if the person exists. Admittedly, I don't know too much about the notarization process, so maybe they verify things like identification given to them? Does the service explain what steps it does in order to verify identity besides uploading documents that could be easily forged?
ben1040
I can't see from a cursory glance how they verify identity.

But I assume they might use one of the schemes used by banks when setting up online accounts, or even by the TSA when you forget your ID and want to board a plane. They look at public/commercial records to come up with questions that only you should be able to answer.

Stuff like "DMV records show you own a Toyota Camry, what is the model year?," "which of these best describes your monthly payment on your mortgage?" or "which of these lenders holds one of your student loans?"

caseya
We use Experian's Knowledge-Based Authentication, which is similar to what ben1040 mentioned above. It is based on your name, address, and sometimes your SSN.

You can read more on Experian's KBA here: https://www.experian.com/products/pdf/knowledge_iq.pdf Or here: https://www.experian.com/esolutions/esolutions/products/frau...

rprasad
Experian's KBA is not adequate to prove identity for legal purposes in any state, or for federal purposes. My banks won't even use it to verify identity for credit purposes.

What incompetent lawyer told you that you could use it for the basis of your service? Moreover, what incompetent lawyer told you that you could offer such a state-specific thing as notarization services nationwide?

rprasad
The credit bureau services used by banks are not intended to verify your identity for notary purposes; they are used to verify your identify for credit purposes. The databases provided by the credit bureaus are so unbelievably error-filled that they frequently fail to perform even this basic task (and if you read the fine print when you agree to allow this type of check, you will see that they acknowledge that their service cannot be relied upon to prove identity).

Moreover, this system of "verification" merely proves that the person being examined knows publicly purchasable facts about the alleged identity they claim. (All of the data used by these systems comes from public records, all of which can be accessed for free or for a fee.)

dfc
Does the full faith and credit clause of the constitution cover notarizations? Or to put it another way will a document with an electronic notarization from Virginia be recognized in the other 49 states?

NB the link to the law is buried a couple clicks in. If you are interested in seeing the law: http://notarynow.signnow.com/virginia-notary-law/

rprasad
No. Different states have different standards for notarization. An online notarization will not satisfy requirements for 49 of the states (since Virginia apparently allows this).

Most states require in-person verification of id, i.e., an actual physical examination of the i.d. presented. The Virginia law requires verification, but does not actually say how such verification would proceed.

In other words...this notary service is only useful if the courts of Virgina have jurisdiction over any legal disputes arising from the transaction.

dfc
So full faith and credit does not extend to notarizations?
rprasad
No., the full faith and credit clause provides: Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state. And the Congress may by general laws prescribe the manner in which such acts, records, and proceedings shall be proved, and the effect thereof.

However, notarization services are not public acts, records, or judicial proceedings. (Strictly speaking, notarization is a public act for state law purposes, but not for federal law purposes.)

EDIT: To clarify, a "public act" for federal law purposes is an act by a publicly elected, or appointed, official of the state. Local officials (county, city, etc.) do not have the power/authority of "public acts" for purposes of federal law. A notary is a state-level bureaucrat, but is not an "official" for federal law purposes because they are not elected or appointed--anyone can be a notary if they pass a simple test. EDIT 2: Note also that Congress gets to say when the FFAC applies, and they have chosen not to apply it to notarization services.

pseingatl
I don't think this is true at all. In Florida, notaries are appointed by the Governor, an elected official. Nevertheless, notarizations are "records" within the meaning of the FFC clause. In Louisiana, notaries keep books of their notarizations. More importantly, the incapacity of a notary will not invalidate the notarization. The fact is, notarization is a historical artifact and is essentially meaningless. Keep in mind that tax returns do not need to be notarized and you can still be prosecuted for perjury if you lie. Need a quick notarization with no notary around? Look at 28 USC 1746: type the language given there on your document, sign and you are good to go for everything except real estate transaction.
[deleted]
(comment deleted)
ghshephard
The first thing that everyone at my office noticed when I forwarded this link - they are only open from 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM EST? Hopefully that that's the first thing that's tweaked, otherwise anybody on the west coast who wants to notarize something after 3:00 PM is still faced with heading out of the office, plunking down $5 and getting their document stamped.

I can see this being very convenient for people who are located in rural locations, though I don't know how much business those people will generate.

Of course - the biggest challenge here will be price competition and a race to the bottom. At $5/notarization, it usually takes 3-4 minutes to get somebody's passport, ID, data, etc...

Watching the video - the one thing going for signnow is it will escrow your notarized document. Maybe the real play here isn't so much notarization as a business, but the brand development of signnow by offering peripheral services.

dfc
You pay for notarization? Does your company have a business account with a local bank?
rprasad
This service is illegal in California. California, and most states, require a person to prove their identity in the physical presence of the notary, and the notary must physically examine the proofs of id used to verify their authenticity.

Link to California Secretary of Website Customer Alert about this service, posted this afternoon: http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/customer-alert.htm

Quoted from the linked page: A private company claims to have the first online notarization website and has sent misleading information and made false claims to California notaries public concerning a new online notarization service. The web-based platform purports to allow a person to submit copies of identification over the Internet and to use a webcam in lieu of a personal appearance in front of a notary public. Appearance via webcam does not meet the requirements for notarization in California.

California notaries public are authorized under current law to perform electronic notarizations as long as all the requirements for a traditional paper-based notarial act are met, including the use of a seal for all but two specific documents used in real estate transactions. California law requires a person to appear personally before a notary public to obtain notarial acts like acknowledgments or jurats. This means the party must be physically present before the notary public. A video image or other form of non-physical representation is not a personal appearance in front of a notary public under current state or federal laws. The technology solution offered by this private company does not comply with California law.

pseingatl
Let's not forget 28 USC 1746 which substitutes for notarization in almost every case except real estate transactions.