Ha, a friend of mine in Austria did the same thing to avoid the draft. They check on you regularly though if you're fit for service, so it takes a man of focus, commitment and sheer fucking will to being morbidly obese till 35 to avoid the draft. No jail time for him though.
Can't they simply refuse on moral/ethical grounds? Like, we had "Service Civique" in France till the 2000-something for those who refused the draft. I spent one year washing the floors of a penitentiary instead and honestly I don't regret it at all.
Maybe it's borderline not "Western", but Turkey famously haven't gotten to allow people to refuse service.
> In 2021 Europe was not a safe place for many conscientious objectors in several countries who faced prosecution, arrests, trials by military courts, imprisonments, fines, intimidation, attacks, death threats, and discrimination. These countries include Turkey (the only CoE Member State who has not yet recognised the right to conscientious objection)
I think I remember talking with some Greek person at some point as well, where "conscientious objection" theoretically exists, but the alternative ends up longer than the military service + basically feels like a punishment, rather than an alternative.
By "Western" I think I meant "stereotypical Western and Northern European"
> I think I remember talking with some Greek person at some point as well, where "conscientious objection" theoretically exists, but the alternative ends up longer than the military service + basically feels like a punishment, rather than an alternative.
Finland too has options of military service, civil service(guaranteed to be equal length to maximum military) or incarceration. Later which usually is mostly not inside institution, but with tracking and quarantine inside home.
Getting too fat would work if you find a doctor to write a paper and you will get away with it during peace time.
Alternatively they can work in care facilities (elderly care, psychiatric hospitals, etc…). I dont have the details but i know a few people who did this
nah you don't need to be in a jail, but you do need to prove this has been a deep seated view, and one you've held for a long time.
the Amish, for example, don't get drafted. same with priests, or folks who can demonstrate a long history of attending Quaker services, or membership in the Humanist league, etc.
>Like, we had "Service Civique" in France till the 2000-something for those who refused the draft.
France doesn't border a totalitarian nuclear power though. Your civil liberties are determined by your place in the geopolitical lottery, not by what your wishes are. Once you border an aggressive and dangerous state, then your (male) body becomes the government's property. Unfortunately.
Technically, I guess one or more of France's overseas territories are near the maritime zones of nuclear-armed countries, but considering direct land or maritime borders, you're right.
Technically you're right, I forgot France is stil running a colonial empire on the side with territories around the world for force projection and tax dodging. That's why France has the foreign legion though. They get cannon fodder and give them citizenship in return.
Not the government's property. It's more that you're a citizen like in a polis.
An element of citizenship is mutual aid and participation in the military and political life of the state. Of course, if you're excluded from part of this, then we do end up in the situation you describe-- maybe doing this properly even requires direct democracy.
For me what seems deeply unethical is that some crooked old politicians/military are able to force young people to kill each other in wars the later had no part in starting.
> For me what seems deeply unethical is that some crooked old politicians/military are able to force young people to kill each other in wars the later had no part in starting.
In countries where drafts are thing, they are a part of the social contract.
Rejecting the social contract means rejecting the primacy of that society.
Furthermore, most countries that retain a draft have active security threats or are in frozen conflicts that can re-ignite at a moment's notice.
By dodging the draft you are essentially freeloading off of the rest of society who did get drafted.
>By dodging the draft you are essentially freeloading off of the rest of society who did get drafted.
The problem I have is with selective enforcement of such social contracts.
In case of the conflict, none of the rich or important people and their kids will be on the front line or even take part in the draft, they'll be chilling in US, UK, New Zeeland, Switzerland, Austria, South of Europe, etc, and yet I and every other Joe Schmoe have to go and die or suffer to fulfil my so called "social contract"? They can eat shit.
Go to any fancy town in Europe and it's full of the Russian and Ukrainian elites living the good life while the poor people in their countries suffer. It was the same in WW1. All of the European plebs were dying in the trenches while Monaco hosted the hottest party and gambling scene of the European monarchies and elites. Go visit Monaco and see for yourself the history.
So until I see the rich people dying in the trenches with the poor, the social contract is a scam and I'll do everything in my power to avoid it since that's what the rich and powerful have always done as that's how they've become rich and powerful in the first place, they never followed the herd.
Social contracts are for gullible people to get scammed easier by the ruling class.
there is a very real possibility that Western Europe gets dragged into that conflict, and Putin has said, unequivocally, that he is at war with the West.
Laws do not define the ethics of a society though. While laws may be informed by ethics, laws are not mutually inclusive or exclusive of one’s cultural ethics. One need simply look at a country’s tax laws to understand the disparity.
While I’m unsure of Singapore’s current situation, I know there was a sizable amount of able-bodied men in both Israel and Ukraine who had left, and an underground railroad of sorts sprouted up to help them. To me, that sounds like the ethics of their society are clashing with the geopolitically-driven laws their governments erected.
I don't understand how you can characterize this as dictatorship. If anything, it's the very normal realization of the representational democracy: The people have voted for representatives, that themselves voted on laws to force everyone to serve, or go to jail.
If the people wish to repeal that law, then they should vote for representatives that will repeal this.
> SK should consider fielding a volunteer force from their ranks to fight on behalf of the Ukrainians in order to do the same
Foreign military deployments are very politically unpopular in South Korea.
Memories of SK's involvement in the Vietnam War and the extreme unpopularity of SK's tiny deployment in Iraq make any sort of "boots on the ground" view politically untenable.
Furthermore, South Korea can better contribute (and is) by providing material, intelligence, and funding.
It was pretty amusing to see the fake news saying we'll deploy spread all over the place in the western media. And then the disappointment and hate we got once they discovered they've been lied to.
Understandable. What might be good for the proficiency of your military is not necessarily what is good for the day to day life (or lives of ) your soldiers, and also not necessarily what is good for the country.
That is why I suggested as a volunteer operation only, especially keeping in mind the state of military conscription in SK.
Whether voluntary or not, foreign deployment is inherently political.
Anyone can identify the significance of it, which is that we're easily coerced into fighting europe's war which europe has no interest in spilling blood. Downright disrespectful and an easy rejection.
The lack of depth of European involvement really rings true and is a totally different (and more meaningful) frame than the one I came in on (nk/SK).
I can definitely see how that would really look like a shit sandwich from a SK perspective.
I was looking at it as more a way to capture and conserve martial proficiency, but you are obviously right on with the political nature, as well as the optics and narrative that would likely become the defining aspect of this kind of involvement.
I find odd this was flagged. To me what this guy tried to do was a fine example of hacking, although not of an electronic device in the digital realm, but of the legal system in the analog world.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 67.0 ms ] threadNope. That's a Western thing.
Conscientious objectors are allowed, but then you must work in a jail.
> In 2021 Europe was not a safe place for many conscientious objectors in several countries who faced prosecution, arrests, trials by military courts, imprisonments, fines, intimidation, attacks, death threats, and discrimination. These countries include Turkey (the only CoE Member State who has not yet recognised the right to conscientious objection)
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/2022-05/EBCO-HRC50...
I think I remember talking with some Greek person at some point as well, where "conscientious objection" theoretically exists, but the alternative ends up longer than the military service + basically feels like a punishment, rather than an alternative.
> I think I remember talking with some Greek person at some point as well, where "conscientious objection" theoretically exists, but the alternative ends up longer than the military service + basically feels like a punishment, rather than an alternative.
Same in Israel and South Korea
Getting too fat would work if you find a doctor to write a paper and you will get away with it during peace time.
the Amish, for example, don't get drafted. same with priests, or folks who can demonstrate a long history of attending Quaker services, or membership in the Humanist league, etc.
France doesn't border a totalitarian nuclear power though. Your civil liberties are determined by your place in the geopolitical lottery, not by what your wishes are. Once you border an aggressive and dangerous state, then your (male) body becomes the government's property. Unfortunately.
An element of citizenship is mutual aid and participation in the military and political life of the state. Of course, if you're excluded from part of this, then we do end up in the situation you describe-- maybe doing this properly even requires direct democracy.
Draft Dodging is unethical.
A draft is a core part of the social contract in plenty of countries, and those who try to evade it are viewed as "freeloading" by the majority.
Try draft dodging in Singapore, Israel, or Ukraine as well and see what happens.
For me what seems deeply unethical is that some crooked old politicians/military are able to force young people to kill each other in wars the later had no part in starting.
In countries where drafts are thing, they are a part of the social contract.
Rejecting the social contract means rejecting the primacy of that society.
Furthermore, most countries that retain a draft have active security threats or are in frozen conflicts that can re-ignite at a moment's notice.
By dodging the draft you are essentially freeloading off of the rest of society who did get drafted.
The problem I have is with selective enforcement of such social contracts.
In case of the conflict, none of the rich or important people and their kids will be on the front line or even take part in the draft, they'll be chilling in US, UK, New Zeeland, Switzerland, Austria, South of Europe, etc, and yet I and every other Joe Schmoe have to go and die or suffer to fulfil my so called "social contract"? They can eat shit.
Go to any fancy town in Europe and it's full of the Russian and Ukrainian elites living the good life while the poor people in their countries suffer. It was the same in WW1. All of the European plebs were dying in the trenches while Monaco hosted the hottest party and gambling scene of the European monarchies and elites. Go visit Monaco and see for yourself the history.
So until I see the rich people dying in the trenches with the poor, the social contract is a scam and I'll do everything in my power to avoid it since that's what the rich and powerful have always done as that's how they've become rich and powerful in the first place, they never followed the herd.
Social contracts are for gullible people to get scammed easier by the ruling class.
You chill out in Western Europe as a refugee till everything blows over. At least for those from Ukraine.
"you can't be neutral on a moving train"
While I’m unsure of Singapore’s current situation, I know there was a sizable amount of able-bodied men in both Israel and Ukraine who had left, and an underground railroad of sorts sprouted up to help them. To me, that sounds like the ethics of their society are clashing with the geopolitically-driven laws their governments erected.
If the people wish to repeal that law, then they should vote for representatives that will repeal this.
Foreign military deployments are very politically unpopular in South Korea.
Memories of SK's involvement in the Vietnam War and the extreme unpopularity of SK's tiny deployment in Iraq make any sort of "boots on the ground" view politically untenable.
Furthermore, South Korea can better contribute (and is) by providing material, intelligence, and funding.
Figured it might make sense as a volunteer only operation. But maybe even that would not be practical.
It was pretty amusing to see the fake news saying we'll deploy spread all over the place in the western media. And then the disappointment and hate we got once they discovered they've been lied to.
That is why I suggested as a volunteer operation only, especially keeping in mind the state of military conscription in SK.
I can definitely see how that would really look like a shit sandwich from a SK perspective.
I was looking at it as more a way to capture and conserve martial proficiency, but you are obviously right on with the political nature, as well as the optics and narrative that would likely become the defining aspect of this kind of involvement.