Yea, my fault; I had written something more inflammatory, but after a bunch of edits I had moderated my tone once I realized I was just ranting against bad FE candidates I had interviewed.
I could not continue reading after the author started apologizing for the computer-science-heavy interview. Simply put, if computer science heavy questions bother you, you are not an A player.
Simply put, if computer science heavy questions bother you, you are not an A player.
And herein lies the problem - the hubris of a SW Dev. So often the more artistic-leaning FE Dev is interviewed by the more pragmatic-leaning SW Dev. The software dev starts asking questions about recursion and collections and then labels the FE as a terrible developer.
What you have to understand is that FE Devs don't care about that stuff. They aren't trained in it, they aren't interested in it. They have a completely different domain knowledge than the SW Dev and that's fine. It's not worse, it's just different.
It doesn't make them a non-'A player'. They could very well be an A player in their particular domain. Watching a good FE Dev sling HTML/CSS/JS is a thing of beauty. It's not as easy as a lot of SW Devs think it is.
Many SW Devs are great at creative front end work. Many FE Devs used to be amazing back end Devs. Many Devs don't care what end or language they work in. Those are A players.
If you've just never worked with a single particular technology, that's fine. If on the other hand you have never touched a lot of technologies.... probably not an A player. If you don't know anything about recursion, you are definitely not an A player.
Frankly, I find saying that FE Devs shouldn't care about recursion insulting to FE Devs.
Watching a good FE Dev sling HTML/CSS/JS is a thing of beauty. It's not as easy as a lot of SW Devs think it is.
If they mess up fundamental computer science concepts while slinging JS around, it's gong to be painful rather than beautiful to watch. And I make no claim it is easy. JS in particular is lovely programing language liked by many SW Devs.
You're saying that just because someone doesn't have a specific set of domain knowledge they can't be an 'A player' in the domain they do have knowledge in. This simply isn't true.
Using an analogy, even though Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan play golf, Michael Jordan can't be an 'A player' in basketball even though that's his domain, not golf.
Are backend developers that have only a cursory domain knowledge of the front end not 'A players'?
A better analogy might be two different positions in basketball: shooting guard and center. To some degree, the two positions specialize: SG doesn't need to block shots (let's say), while the center does.
However, everyone needs to dribble. A simple CS concept like recursion is analogous to dribbling. If you can't dribble, you're not playing basketball. If you don't know what recursion is, you're not a professional. Period.
Are backend developers that have only a cursory domain knowledge of the front end not 'A players'?
I would say that if have no interest in what is literally half of the internet, it does not matter how good you are at the back end, you are not an A player.
And computer science isn't just another domain. We're not talking php vs python here. This is about the fundamental nature of the work you do. Yes, even as a JS slinger, you still have the exact same computing fundamentals to deal with.
It's not like basketball and golf, it's like basic athleticism. No you can't be an A basketball player if you don't have a minimum of athleticism. And the same is true for almost all sports.
The fundamentals of computer science are to developers like cardio is to athletes.
I would say that if have no interest in what is literally half of the internet, it does not matter how good you are at the back end, you are not an A player.
There are very few people who could have enough knowledge of all the domains of CS to be an 'A player' in your definition.
This is about the fundamental nature of the work you do. Yes, even as a JS slinger, you still have the exact same computing fundamentals to deal with.
Not sure if you are literally targeting me, but I am a backend developer who does a fair share of UI. I frankly despise JS but live with it nonetheless.
what was the point of this article?
Where's the hubris?
Bunch of incoherent sentences strung together meandering around a non existent point that is never made.
The negative comments about this post by others are interesting; perhaps it's because I'm also a FE Engineer, but I thought much of what you said was spot-on. I've managed to specialize in FE only because I can also do back-end work; I have a hard time hiring other FEs because so many only know jQuery, and a spot of html and css, and I simply don't have room on my small engineering team unless they can supplement more or are very fast learners.
To be an effective FE, you need to understand the whole stack - not just how to install a jQuery plugin, but also CSS, Javascript the language, html, where these technologies are going (html5, ecmascript 6), what the back end stack looks like, how data gets from the database to the browser, how the browser rendering engine works, pragmatic optimizations, functional and OO concepts, version control, browser quirks, the TCP stack, and deployment. No, you don't have to specialize in these things, but you need to be familiar or willing to get familiar.
And you're right, most companies don't understand what FE engineers need or what they should be.
To be an effective FE, you need to understand the whole stack
I completely disagree. There are a lot of organizations that completely abstract the front end from the rest of the stack and have only UI developers work on a very focused piece.
It doesn't help a UI developer to know the DB schema or the middle tier components. They need to know where they can get the data they need and where to send updates. That's about it. It can be helpful if they know business flow (not necessarily logic).
They don't need to have the schema memorized, but they do need to know the path the data takes from the database to the front-end to appropriately optimize how the front end receives and displays the data; for example, to properly implement Backbone, you want a RESTful API. Is this available (or achievable if not)? You have to know your capabilities in order to appropriately choose a pattern or framework.
You're involved- or should be involved- in coordinating with back-end developers on the interface from the front-end and the back end. The implementation of that interface depends on the structure of the underlying system; different databases, such as document-based vs relational, can have subtle differences in how your interfaces are implemented and effect the flexibility of said interfaces.
You only need to coordinate inputs and outputs. If you need to coordinate more than that you've probably got a very coupled system. Especially with web services - REST, SOAP, etc. - who cares if the front end is connecting to a Java application or a .Net application? Who cares if what the FE dev is building is IOS, Android, JSF, Spring, Flex, etc.?
If it's done right, all the details can be (and should be) abstracted away from the FE.
My entire point is - who defines this REST / SOAP / "who cares" layer? If it's strictly back-end engineers, front-end interoperability is not represented. A FE engineer involved in the development and maintenance of this API layer ensures that concerns are effectively recognized - which requires an FE engineer who knows the whole stack. Yes, these details should be abstracted away from the strict implementation of the actual FE code, but that API has to be created in concert.
Definition of an API isn't about knowing the 'entire stack'.
A front end dev will need to understand the structure of the API and present needs to whoever is maintaining it but it doesn't matter what the API is coded in since that is most likely abstracted away via the different service interfaces.
Frankly, other than what they are developing the front end in, the only aspect a dedicated front end developer needs access to is the document describing the API so they can make changes there and get their needs to the API owner.
I'd argue in theory, no, but in practice this is often helpful.
For example, I was working on a multi-step activation system where I had to get the user in a certain state no a specific UI element showed up. That required spending 5-10 min. every time to set up that user, which would go away once you use that button, and development would have taken days.
That is, until someone showed me what the Activation schema + model looked like and how to just toggle the boolean or attach an expected relation. You could maybe argue that there should be an admin interface for manipulating model state, but nobody else really would need it: BE devs can already change the models, and business types don't care about this particular state of the user.
Pretty spot on. I'm constantly bothered by people who are "Front End" Engineers and only want to slap some html/css around or only do DOM manipulation.
Sure, you should do that stuff better than me (back end), but knowing how you are getting your data, where it's coming from, etc will only make you better.
Requires you to have to ask them less questions when you run into a blocker. Helps you debug issues.
it helps you help them design the interface or design an API.
Are you just missing the fundamental point of why anyone learns anything? You learn more so you can do more and make more effective/informed decisions.
Requires you to have to ask them less questions when you run into a blocker. Helps you debug issues.
Possibly.
it helps you help them design the interface or design an API.
Ugh, that's a disaster waiting to happen. Dedicated backend engineers are usually terrible when it comes to what the user really needs and how to display it.
Are you just missing the fundamental point of why anyone learns anything? You learn more so you can do more and make more effective/informed decisions.
No reason to be condescending.
My point is that a front end engineer can make plenty of informed decisions without needing to know the schema of the database or the code in the MT. Does the API return what is expected? Yes = bug in UI. No = bug in server. Does the UI need something the API doesn't provide? Talk to the backend dev to get that into the API. It should be that simple.
HTML/CSS is a small piece of a stack that is fairly easy to pick up. There are hardly ever reasons to hire someone who is FE only (at small companies) and I often find that people who are FE only don't have the kind foundation that would allow them to venture into complicated JS code.
The author seems to be implying that SEs given front end responsibilities will struggle with them but that's only true in the way that they struggle with anything else new (the struggle is short lived because we're talking about markup with quirks).
Also, OP, if you read this, your footnotes link to the original text but it's covered by your huge fixed header.
Ah, thanks - I guess I should just get rid of the fixed header...
But to your first point, I don't think it's just learning HTML and CSS syntax. For example, I've never seen a SE break out XScope and measure the exact pixels between two elements, obsess about the opacity of a drop shadow, or spend a few hours to tweak the bezier curve of an animation. It's like saying that SEs will just struggle with design initially.
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[ 5.3 ms ] story [ 69.7 ms ] threadWhich is more about Web design than FE, but still.
And herein lies the problem - the hubris of a SW Dev. So often the more artistic-leaning FE Dev is interviewed by the more pragmatic-leaning SW Dev. The software dev starts asking questions about recursion and collections and then labels the FE as a terrible developer.
What you have to understand is that FE Devs don't care about that stuff. They aren't trained in it, they aren't interested in it. They have a completely different domain knowledge than the SW Dev and that's fine. It's not worse, it's just different.
It doesn't make them a non-'A player'. They could very well be an A player in their particular domain. Watching a good FE Dev sling HTML/CSS/JS is a thing of beauty. It's not as easy as a lot of SW Devs think it is.
Many SW Devs are great at creative front end work. Many FE Devs used to be amazing back end Devs. Many Devs don't care what end or language they work in. Those are A players.
If you've just never worked with a single particular technology, that's fine. If on the other hand you have never touched a lot of technologies.... probably not an A player. If you don't know anything about recursion, you are definitely not an A player.
Frankly, I find saying that FE Devs shouldn't care about recursion insulting to FE Devs.
Watching a good FE Dev sling HTML/CSS/JS is a thing of beauty. It's not as easy as a lot of SW Devs think it is.
If they mess up fundamental computer science concepts while slinging JS around, it's gong to be painful rather than beautiful to watch. And I make no claim it is easy. JS in particular is lovely programing language liked by many SW Devs.
Using an analogy, even though Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan play golf, Michael Jordan can't be an 'A player' in basketball even though that's his domain, not golf.
Are backend developers that have only a cursory domain knowledge of the front end not 'A players'?
However, everyone needs to dribble. A simple CS concept like recursion is analogous to dribbling. If you can't dribble, you're not playing basketball. If you don't know what recursion is, you're not a professional. Period.
I would say that if have no interest in what is literally half of the internet, it does not matter how good you are at the back end, you are not an A player.
And computer science isn't just another domain. We're not talking php vs python here. This is about the fundamental nature of the work you do. Yes, even as a JS slinger, you still have the exact same computing fundamentals to deal with.
It's not like basketball and golf, it's like basic athleticism. No you can't be an A basketball player if you don't have a minimum of athleticism. And the same is true for almost all sports.
The fundamentals of computer science are to developers like cardio is to athletes.
There are very few people who could have enough knowledge of all the domains of CS to be an 'A player' in your definition.
This is about the fundamental nature of the work you do. Yes, even as a JS slinger, you still have the exact same computing fundamentals to deal with.
Not sure if you are literally targeting me, but I am a backend developer who does a fair share of UI. I frankly despise JS but live with it nonetheless.
To be an effective FE, you need to understand the whole stack - not just how to install a jQuery plugin, but also CSS, Javascript the language, html, where these technologies are going (html5, ecmascript 6), what the back end stack looks like, how data gets from the database to the browser, how the browser rendering engine works, pragmatic optimizations, functional and OO concepts, version control, browser quirks, the TCP stack, and deployment. No, you don't have to specialize in these things, but you need to be familiar or willing to get familiar.
And you're right, most companies don't understand what FE engineers need or what they should be.
I completely disagree. There are a lot of organizations that completely abstract the front end from the rest of the stack and have only UI developers work on a very focused piece.
It doesn't help a UI developer to know the DB schema or the middle tier components. They need to know where they can get the data they need and where to send updates. That's about it. It can be helpful if they know business flow (not necessarily logic).
You're involved- or should be involved- in coordinating with back-end developers on the interface from the front-end and the back end. The implementation of that interface depends on the structure of the underlying system; different databases, such as document-based vs relational, can have subtle differences in how your interfaces are implemented and effect the flexibility of said interfaces.
If it's done right, all the details can be (and should be) abstracted away from the FE.
Definition of an API isn't about knowing the 'entire stack'.
A front end dev will need to understand the structure of the API and present needs to whoever is maintaining it but it doesn't matter what the API is coded in since that is most likely abstracted away via the different service interfaces.
Frankly, other than what they are developing the front end in, the only aspect a dedicated front end developer needs access to is the document describing the API so they can make changes there and get their needs to the API owner.
For example, I was working on a multi-step activation system where I had to get the user in a certain state no a specific UI element showed up. That required spending 5-10 min. every time to set up that user, which would go away once you use that button, and development would have taken days.
That is, until someone showed me what the Activation schema + model looked like and how to just toggle the boolean or attach an expected relation. You could maybe argue that there should be an admin interface for manipulating model state, but nobody else really would need it: BE devs can already change the models, and business types don't care about this particular state of the user.
since you mentioned, could anyone point me in the direction of good resources for learning exactly this?
Sure, you should do that stuff better than me (back end), but knowing how you are getting your data, where it's coming from, etc will only make you better.
How will it make any difference if they aren't actually making changes to the backend?
it helps you help them design the interface or design an API.
Are you just missing the fundamental point of why anyone learns anything? You learn more so you can do more and make more effective/informed decisions.
Possibly.
it helps you help them design the interface or design an API.
Ugh, that's a disaster waiting to happen. Dedicated backend engineers are usually terrible when it comes to what the user really needs and how to display it.
Are you just missing the fundamental point of why anyone learns anything? You learn more so you can do more and make more effective/informed decisions.
No reason to be condescending.
My point is that a front end engineer can make plenty of informed decisions without needing to know the schema of the database or the code in the MT. Does the API return what is expected? Yes = bug in UI. No = bug in server. Does the UI need something the API doesn't provide? Talk to the backend dev to get that into the API. It should be that simple.
The author seems to be implying that SEs given front end responsibilities will struggle with them but that's only true in the way that they struggle with anything else new (the struggle is short lived because we're talking about markup with quirks).
Also, OP, if you read this, your footnotes link to the original text but it's covered by your huge fixed header.
But to your first point, I don't think it's just learning HTML and CSS syntax. For example, I've never seen a SE break out XScope and measure the exact pixels between two elements, obsess about the opacity of a drop shadow, or spend a few hours to tweak the bezier curve of an animation. It's like saying that SEs will just struggle with design initially.