I'm really tempted to get another one for use with my laptop, but I'm currently using a left-handed Elecom trackball that is wireless - it's fine, but not the sheer luxury of a Ploopy.
Most of the Ploopy trackballs are designed for fingering(!). The one shown in the article looks to me like the Adept model which I have too and is not a thumb-designed one.
(My Elecom left-handed wireless trackball on the other hand is a thumb-oriented one. They take more getting used to as thumbs aren't quite as dextrous)
Same reason for me I only buy laptops who's displays can open nearly 180 degrees (so no MacBooks): it allows for a wider choice of more ergonomic postures looking straight ahead instead of down on the desk.
Ironically for ergonomics, I need to look down. I significantly increased my daily pain by trying to follow standard ergonomic advice because I failed to take into account my unique needs.
I like the newest design! The hook and loop for the power adapter in particular really is a great idea for something that needs to be removed so frequently.
This does look very cool. But my advise for anyone suffering from pain to their arms, hands, backs, and any other body parts that usually hurt for people working on computer all day: Do modest, but regular mobility and strength exercises.
While having an ergonomic (and cool looking at that) setup is important, it wont save you from muscle atrophy. A physical therapist might help you find the right kind of exercises for you.
This is often not obvious, because the muscle you need to reinforce / train are often not actually the one hurting. And you need to do it regularly. But if you stick to it, the payoff is much better than any setup I ever had.
> This is often not obvious, because the muscle you need to reinforce / train are often not actually the one hurting.
As someone who has done physical therapy for different issues, this is spot on. Lower back issues were actually due to weak hamstrings, and ankle issues due to weak calves.
Doing daily mobility and strength exercises as part of my mourning routine improved my health as a whole. A couple months in, and all random aches, pains, and soreness that i'd feel upon waking up or during the day were simply gone. And it only takes me 30 minutes a day. It's a pretty awesome alternative to doom scrolling.
Not the commenter, but AFAIK, people with some condition might have to put significantly more effort, at least at the beginning, to get equivalent result.
The typical case would be for overweight/obese people. While mobility and strength always help, it won't counter balance all the strain that the extra weight put on your body.
It will be more efficient to focus on getting lean first, and then focusing on strength/mobility. Although it is possible to do both (and maybe recommended ? But i am way out of my depth here).
a little regular exercise helps with weight loss, at least in anecdotal stuff. not that you can burn away a bad diet with exercise but the cardio and exertion help with the stress of dieting (lots of nice endorphins in a runners high!) and seem to aid metabolism a little.
doing a half hour at the gym 5 nights a week was like half of my weight loss routine basically.
AIUI there are two other factors that are important with strength training and weight loss:
- Increased muscle mass raises your BMR, enabling the same weight loss rate at a higher caloric intake
- Strength training combats your body's tendency to burn muscle as well as fat when in a calorie deficit, focusing the weight loss on the body component you want to get rid of (the fat).
Adjusting for equivalent level of activity, people carrying around a lot of extra weight tend to have commensurately more muscle from carrying that extra weight around (try wearing a 40kg weight vest day and night for a few weeks - you too will have to put on muscle just to get through the day).
It's generally considered to be a lot easier for an overweight person to get lean as a side-effect of getting strong, rather than the other way round.
I just have a lot of things I have to do in my program, and I have to do them twice a day, every day. I thought it might be better not to do it every day, and asked that, but was told no by two separate physios and my care team and so twice a day every day it remains. I also do in person physio and pilates on top of this three days a week.
It's obviously good for me (what kind of exercise isnt I suppose) but id probably feel better if I was getting out of it what I wanted, which i'm not and i've now been told I probably never will. But I cant stop because even though im not getting what I want, if I stop, in the long run, i'm probably even worse off. (Though, isnt everyone really.)
Id far prefer to move over to something like a bodyweight fitness program on a three day a week rotation, but I just cant do it physically until I undergo further evaluation and likely surgery, and would not have the energy to fit it in on top of my current physio regieme even outside of that.
I didnt mean "I wish it was only 30 minutes" in that I hate doing it, i'm just tired and it takes a lot of my time. I think at 30 minutes a day, it would just feel a whole lot easier to fit into my life, as opposed to building my life around it. I need a minimum now of about 1h30m before work, and after. Which means everything else in my life has to bend to accomodate that.
I do miss sessions occasionally, but I try not too because i'm only cheating myself, nobody else. I have a spreadsheet I use to keep myself honest.
I am in the same situation. Disc herniation, post surgery, doing pt every day and no material improvement in 3 years. Ive tried many pt programs. My time is under extreme pressure.
I need to stop sitting, and revert to a hunter gatherer movement pattern of walking, running and crouching. Unfortunately i live in nyc and my desk job may kill me.
If we can use AI+VR/AR to put an end to desk work, it will dramatically benefit billions of souls.
> I am in the same situation. Disc herniation, post surgery, doing pt every day and no material improvement in 3 years. Ive tried many pt programs. My time is under extreme pressure.
Ah, we’re in very similar situations. I’m sorry to hear of your struggles. I unfortunately know too well what you’re enduring. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.
I had severe cervical myelopathy where my spine severely compressed my spinal cord, causing permanent damage. I underwent a cervical decompression and ACDF, but I’ll live with an incomplete spinal cord injury and its consequences for life.
On top of that, I have a herniated disc and Tarlov cysts in my lower lumbar spine. As if the cervical issues weren’t enough, I now fall randomly, making staying upright a constant challenge. The pain from both issues is so severe and relentless, I struggle to even explain it other than to note that it is "life altering."
I’m a few years out, and we’ve now discovered that my cervical spine is compressed again, along with nerves on the right side of my body. I started another physio program through my pain management team, but its not helping, more surgery is the only real solution. Still, I have to stick with physio because, as my medical team says, I need to be fitter than most people to manage my condition. Things are difficult enough that I don’t have the energy to question their guidance. What little energy I do have goes toward trying to stay employed.
> I need to stop sitting, and revert to a hunter gatherer movement pattern of walking, running and crouching.
I have a sit-stand desk and alternate between standing and sitting throughout the day for pain management. I’ll stand and pace for an hour, then sit for a while. It helps with pain in the moment, but I’m not sure it does much more than that.
This is great advice! It took me 2 years and many doctors before I wound up at a physical therapist who figured out my nerve issue in 10 minutes. It was wild how they could move my shoulder and reproduce it. Now I’m working on strengthening stuff to make it better—and keeping the setup for a defense in depth against other issues
Just jumping on this to say: I had chronic lower back and wrist pain for a long time. Had the whole ergonomic setup. Adjustable desk, Kinesis keyboard, vertical mice, etc. What fixed me was starting to squat. Took like 3 weeks of squatting and I haven't had back or wrist pain since (it's been 10+ years). Now I just use the standard (and very nonergonomic) Apple keyboard and mouse.
Huge +1 to this, but I would also add walking _at least_ 8000 steps per day. I still had some minor, nagging pain until I started walking more. Turns out humans are not meant to sit all day!
I can highly recommend a book called _Built to Move_ [0]. It tells you to do a lot of things that many people consider common sense, like walk every day, eat vegetables, sleep 8 hours, etc. However, it also explains _why_ to do these things pretty concisely. The most impactful argument it made to me was you can't counteract sitting for 12 hours a day with any amount of exercise. You have to sit less and move around more.
It appears that the problem is not in sitting too much, but rather in sitting in chairs specifically. Apparently, hunter-gatherer people also spend about 10 hours a day sitting. But they sit on the ground. Or kneel or squat. And they don't have the issues we get from sitting too much:
Given the tables in the results section, it would seem that the people in the study don't have long periods where they don't move. "average sedentary bout lengths" hover between 15 and 20 minutes.
So the problem with "sitting in chairs specifically" is probably not the chair, but the fact that the chair facilitates longer "sedentary bout lengths". If this is correct, then the commenter suggesting to get up and move every so often is probably on point.
Makes sense. That said, fidgeting and moving around is spontaneous when on the floor, you don’t have to be reminded to do it. Also, no chair is cheaper than an expensive chair.
> fidgeting and moving around is spontaneous when on the floor, you don’t have to be reminded to do it
Indeed, it's actually what prompted me to go look over the document.
I remember, as a kid, when out and about and before getting into the habit of sitting in a chair all day every day, I would sit on the floor or on random objects, like stones or tree trunks in the countryside. I wouldn't be able to sit still for long periods of time and would need to at least change positions.
Whereas now, in my "ergonomic chair", I can sit for more than one hour at a time with minimal, if any, changes in position. Ditto for my couch (which wasn't marketed as "ergonomic" in any way).
That being said, I've tried using a computer in other positions, like putting the laptop on a coffee table and squatting or sitting on the floor in front of it, or having it rest on my thies while squatting. It gets tiring very quickly, especially in the shoulders and neck area.
So, in my case, what seems to work best is to get up regularly and walk around the room for a bit.
Even though the weight is carried by the shoulders, you are still stabilising with the wrists, and working on some arm flexibility that isn't much exercised in other contexts
See my response. It was actually air squats, not barbell squats, so couldn’t have been this. Though my hunch is that weighted squats would work better, due to the mechanism you outline.
It was actually air squats that solved it for me, though I did start doing compound lifts with a barbell shortly afterwards.
Two hypotheses:
1. I was just incredibly weak due to being sedentary and even a tiny amount of strength training released enough “get stronger” juice to my system that other muscles also got stronger.
2. Pain is a complex phenomena that relies on our bodies being properly calibrated and lack of any kind of strenuous activity mis-calibrated my pain system.
I’m more inclined toward hypothesis 2. Further life experience has led me to believe that our physical and psychological systems are very much dependent on existing in a specific, narrow milieu to function properly.
Yup, can confirm. Had forearm pain for years (started in the wrists when I started using a laptop at school), did the whole round of ergonomic keyboards, joystick-mouse, etc. Eventually went to a personal trainer who had me try pushups, couldn't do them because of wrist pain. He then made me do deadlifts, which were tricky at first because my grip strength wasn't great, but after just a few sessions it improved markedly, and with it, my wrist/forearm pain. Long-term relief, too. I'm only now (seven, eight years later?) starting to feel it again.
I had a similar experience. Until I started exercising, I had very bad pain in my shoulders and neck from too much desk work. Every couple of weeks I would develop a "stiff neck". I also had pain in my wrists occasionally.
Lifting weights for one hour twice a week has alleviated my problems completely. I feel healthier than ever!
Word for word the same for me. Ergonomic interfaces helped a bit but their effectiveness was eclipsed by strength training. Lifting weights outperforms any ergonomic setup, no contest.
My theory is that because your muscles are a little bit tensed for a long period of time, there's not enough movement to move the blood and lactic acid around, and eventually it builds up and becomes painful.
So even just doing a little bit of mobility exercises with light weights helps a lot.
No it's literally just atrophy and weakness. Supporting muscles not being strong enough, etc. The increased strength relieves a lot of misplaced physical stress
Full agree. My wife is a physical therapist (DPT, Northwestern) and the owner of a PT practice. I say this with some (very limited) authority, repeating things she has said to me:
1) Absolutely seek the advice of a good PT. It's not like going to a chiropractor where you'll get signed up for the "forever plan". You go, pay for a few visits or even just 1 and they will evaluate and give you things to do on your own. You're empowered directly to change your trajectory vs being reliant upon them week after week. In many states PTs have what is called "direct access" meaning they can see and treat you without any MD referrals being required. Also if you can afford it (HSA/FSA accounts are fine here), try to go to a "cash pay" PT that isn't burdened by death grip of our insurance system. You'll get better 1:1 attention and probably a much less overburdened PT.
2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour (I know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
3) Sit on an exercise ball while at your desk and simultaneously think about your posture on a background thread. This will help you with core strength quite a bit over time. This is something most of us with desk jobs (and even most of us period) could use improvement on. She sees serious athletes who even have weak <random latin word> muscles hidden in spots they'd never think about.
4) Sometimes, like when it comes to pain in hands/wrists, you would want to seek out an occupational therapist (OT) instead of or in addition to a PT, who don't specialize in treating those types of dysfunctions.
Good luck getting/staying well!
disclaimer: This is not medical advice and I have zero formal training in any physical or medical science. Consult a professional. :)
> 2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour (I know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
This is the easy bit. Just drink A LOT. Pick a drink, any drink. Caffeinated or not, carbonated or not. Whatever you like drinking and fits your diet. Keep drinking it at the appropriate temperature. You can geek out on the drinkware, I got a Stanley Stein, which will keep an iced beverage cool for 8 hours easily.
Nature will make sure you have to get up more than once during the day =)
For those of you who don't have 2 minutes for some balance and proprioception work, I practise putting on pants and other stuff in the morning with one hand, usally my non-dominant, whilst brushing my teeth. It is hard at first, don't kill yourself with your toothbrush in case you fall over, but it gets easier after a few weeks.
Come to think of it, I should start practising brushing my teeth with my non-dominant hand, but it might take 30 mins instead of 2, and waste a lot of toothpaste.
I bought an exercise ball for this purpose, but then learned that exercise balls can rupture under you with disastrous consequences. It may happen rarely, but I would rather not risk it.
Last time I saw my physio, I asked about the exercise ball sitting thing because it had come up in a recent conversation. She smirked, got a ball from the other room and then proceeded to sit down on it with the biggest hunch I've ever seen. You can have bad posture sitting on anything, for most people having the option to support their back is better, because then you're not screwed once your back inevitably does get tired.
I’ve had wrist pain from mouse use for about 15 years now. The first big win was a vertical mouse, but I still had pain when working excess hours or playing video games. I tried various workouts and hand exercises and they usually left me in pain
What I discovered this year is hitting golf balls is the right amount of gentle strengthening and accidental PT. I started going to the driving range regularly like 4 months ago and my wrist pain is almost entirely gone.
So mostly this is to say everyone should keep trying and not give up. Every body and injury is different. You just have to experiment and stay active.
I imagine we'll be seeing more personalized setups as time progresses. Custom keyboards have been pretty feasible and affordable for a good while now, with things like QMK and even custom PCB designers. It can still be a bit fiddly, so it's mostly keyboard nutters such as myself who go down that rabbit hole.
Custom trackpads/mice/trackballs haven't gained as much traction, they're not quite as simple as keyboards, and maybe fewer people realise they could benefit from one. I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand, but then I'm so glued to my keyboard that it hardly seems worth the effort.
As a child I always wanted a chair with a split keyboard built into the armrests. Probalby inspired by Palpatine's fancy chair. Maybe I'll make that investment one day ...
>> I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand
I use a Logitech MX Vertical mouse for work, and actually love it for pretty much all non-gaming/pixel-perfect tasks. It feels like it naturally fits my hand in terms of shape and size, which adds up over 40h weeks.
I've tried them, but something about the button placement feels off for the shape of my hand. I recommend them to people quite often, and they're usually well received.
How far are we with brain control interfaces though? I've seen some people playing games with off-the-shelf-ish non invasive eeg devices. Although there seemed to be some delay and crudeness to it.
If the signal to noise level is acceptable it has to be doable to improve it until you can type with it right?
> If the signal to noise level is acceptable it has to be doable to improve it until you can type with it right?
Fairly sure the signal to noise level isn't acceptable, unless you are willing to have electrodes permanently implanted in your skull. External BCI is a very basic at the present time.
Does it? The "good enough" Dell keyboard is made by a multi-billion dollar corporation in extremely large quantities. Economies of scale bring the price all the way down, and they skimp on parts (e.g. no real mechanical keys).
The cost isn't in "splitting the PCB in half", it's in designing and connecting two halves. In sourcing (usually) high quality mechanical keys. Due to the small batch sizes there's also a good chance these are installed by hand, which is pretty labour intensive. Labour ain't cheap.
I work for a U.S. company that makes ergonomic 3D printed keyboards. We design specifically for the individual user's hand. Almost all the keyboard shells (the 3d files) are designed custom for the individual.
Labor is pretty cheap. It takes on average about 2 hours to build a keyboard. If there are no issues, it takes 1 hour. That costs about $25 total on average for labor.
The main cost is the 3d printed shells. We print PLA ourselves for cheap, but we outsource Nylon and Resin to China. These can cost anywhere from $150 to $200 for the entire thing.
The next highest cost are the PCBs. Our connectors, PCB columns for the switches, trackball PCBs, and the "brain" PCB, where all the logic processing happens, end up costing over $100-$150 total.
The total cost to build them ends up being anywhere from $250 (the absolute minimum barebones keyboard) to $400 for higher end boards.
I get what you mean, but that is assuming that you know exactly which one to get and you only need to buy one. In reality, you'll probably need to try at least 3-4 keyboards to find the right one, and they're not always easy or cost-free to return since they're often only available on specialty sites or kickstarters.
I love that the desk in the shots is a coffee bar. Thinking of how customized my coffee setups are it is a clear analogy for ergonomics. Adapting an activity to one's biology.
This feels familiar. I lug my Lenovo laptop, the Logitech ergonomic mouse, aluminium laptop stand and external Keychron keyboard (thinking about buying the Q10 with Alice layout), mostly to have convenient setup on the go, not primarily for ergonomics. Carrying all this stuff plus the extra other things in the daily backpack is certainly not ergonomic, however I think about it as training for some long hikes.
I also use the LG DualUp display at home, like it very much. Similarly, my home setup has the rain design mStand next to it.
Now, if the espresso machine could be also carried with the computer setup..
You may be interested in one of my current projects, I’ll post details when it’s done, but I stripped down a Crossland CC1 and am rebuilding it in an enclosure I can travel with.
Well, I don't the intention is to spend more time using the computer. When your work consists of using the computer, it is "rational" to do whatever is possible to minimize the undesirable effects and any harm. Now, if you are suggesting that OP should change his work (or his hobby) then your I don't think your comment is helpful. Regards.
Balls ever worked for me. Makes my hands cramped. Bar or rollermouse (rollermice?) has worked wonders for me though. Keeps the elbows tucked in, and makes both hands able to share the work load.
That being said with that amount of effort in making an ergonomic workstation, perhaps the first move should have been a dock and a proper screen than can be positioned correctly.
OP, you have a comment there about mouse support in the Keyboardio. I've been using a Keyboardio since 2019 and haven't much tried the mouse support -- any advice? How did you set it up?
Not OP, but I have a Model 100 and I just assigned mouse keys in Chrysallis. It used to be the case that you had to build your firmware to change the speed, but now that's possible through Chrysallis too.
I don't use them very often because I don't mind using a trackpad, but it is useful sometimes.
For those wondering about the tiny amount of keys, you definitely can get used to it.
I have a similar sized keyboard, and the trade off is basically - I move my hands around the keyboard much less, and in return I have to to press more keys. IE, to make the ( symbol I have to press 3 keys, and on a regular keyboard it's 2 keys (shift + 9), but you have to move your hand up and right to a place in the keyboard I don't even have. I'm basically on the home row all the time.
There's also various timing based mechanisms to get around this (ie, hold a key and it does something different if you tap it), but I find it all a bit fiddly and just do basic chording. YMMV.
I don't understand why one wouldn't just limit their time using the computer. If using a computer is giving you pain, stop using it. You can do most of your programming in your mind anyways.
Always like to see what ergonomic tricks work for others. A few thoughts.
Corne doesn't have mouse support? My Lily58 does. (I thought they were basically the same expect mine has number keys.)
Cool mouse. I have a CST mouse, which is similar and works for me.
I wonder if there is some way to make the wood monitor mount/tray skimmer or more portable. The first search on Amazon for "desktop laptop stand" pulls up an Amazon basics stand that gives a little more confidence than the wood stand. Of course, it isn't diy.
All I need is a mac with the screen at the right height (at my eye level). So far the best setup I came up with is long car mount for my 12inch iPad. The iPad sits above my macbook screen. I use this on planes and at tables without monitors.
it's a cool setup, though I wonder if it might be more compact if one designed a new case for the framework (laptop), given that the built-in keyboard and trackpad will go unused
one complaint: I initially had no idea what a "hook and loop fastener" was, and even then I had to google it to confirm it was velcro
A reminder that you want to take a break every half an hour or so from your desk if possible, even with the best ergonomic setup in the world. People often start with a good posture and then slouch over time, and an ergonomic setup alone cannot fix it. Taking regular breaks also helps your eyesight.
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[ 0.27 ms ] story [ 220 ms ] threadand cheers to another lefty mouse user!
(My Elecom left-handed wireless trackball on the other hand is a thumb-oriented one. They take more getting used to as thumbs aren't quite as dextrous)
As someone who has done physical therapy for different issues, this is spot on. Lower back issues were actually due to weak hamstrings, and ankle issues due to weak calves.
Doing daily mobility and strength exercises as part of my mourning routine improved my health as a whole. A couple months in, and all random aches, pains, and soreness that i'd feel upon waking up or during the day were simply gone. And it only takes me 30 minutes a day. It's a pretty awesome alternative to doom scrolling.
doing a half hour at the gym 5 nights a week was like half of my weight loss routine basically.
- Increased muscle mass raises your BMR, enabling the same weight loss rate at a higher caloric intake
- Strength training combats your body's tendency to burn muscle as well as fat when in a calorie deficit, focusing the weight loss on the body component you want to get rid of (the fat).
Adjusting for equivalent level of activity, people carrying around a lot of extra weight tend to have commensurately more muscle from carrying that extra weight around (try wearing a 40kg weight vest day and night for a few weeks - you too will have to put on muscle just to get through the day).
It's generally considered to be a lot easier for an overweight person to get lean as a side-effect of getting strong, rather than the other way round.
It's obviously good for me (what kind of exercise isnt I suppose) but id probably feel better if I was getting out of it what I wanted, which i'm not and i've now been told I probably never will. But I cant stop because even though im not getting what I want, if I stop, in the long run, i'm probably even worse off. (Though, isnt everyone really.)
Id far prefer to move over to something like a bodyweight fitness program on a three day a week rotation, but I just cant do it physically until I undergo further evaluation and likely surgery, and would not have the energy to fit it in on top of my current physio regieme even outside of that.
I didnt mean "I wish it was only 30 minutes" in that I hate doing it, i'm just tired and it takes a lot of my time. I think at 30 minutes a day, it would just feel a whole lot easier to fit into my life, as opposed to building my life around it. I need a minimum now of about 1h30m before work, and after. Which means everything else in my life has to bend to accomodate that.
I do miss sessions occasionally, but I try not too because i'm only cheating myself, nobody else. I have a spreadsheet I use to keep myself honest.
I need to stop sitting, and revert to a hunter gatherer movement pattern of walking, running and crouching. Unfortunately i live in nyc and my desk job may kill me.
If we can use AI+VR/AR to put an end to desk work, it will dramatically benefit billions of souls.
Ah, we’re in very similar situations. I’m sorry to hear of your struggles. I unfortunately know too well what you’re enduring. I wouldn’t wish this on anyone.
I had severe cervical myelopathy where my spine severely compressed my spinal cord, causing permanent damage. I underwent a cervical decompression and ACDF, but I’ll live with an incomplete spinal cord injury and its consequences for life.
On top of that, I have a herniated disc and Tarlov cysts in my lower lumbar spine. As if the cervical issues weren’t enough, I now fall randomly, making staying upright a constant challenge. The pain from both issues is so severe and relentless, I struggle to even explain it other than to note that it is "life altering."
I’m a few years out, and we’ve now discovered that my cervical spine is compressed again, along with nerves on the right side of my body. I started another physio program through my pain management team, but its not helping, more surgery is the only real solution. Still, I have to stick with physio because, as my medical team says, I need to be fitter than most people to manage my condition. Things are difficult enough that I don’t have the energy to question their guidance. What little energy I do have goes toward trying to stay employed.
> I need to stop sitting, and revert to a hunter gatherer movement pattern of walking, running and crouching.
I have a sit-stand desk and alternate between standing and sitting throughout the day for pain management. I’ll stand and pace for an hour, then sit for a while. It helps with pain in the moment, but I’m not sure it does much more than that.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger
/i
I can highly recommend a book called _Built to Move_ [0]. It tells you to do a lot of things that many people consider common sense, like walk every day, eat vegetables, sleep 8 hours, etc. However, it also explains _why_ to do these things pretty concisely. The most impactful argument it made to me was you can't counteract sitting for 12 hours a day with any amount of exercise. You have to sit less and move around more.
[0] https://thereadystate.com/built-to-move/
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1911868117
So... the end-game of ergonomic chairs might be no chair at all.
So the problem with "sitting in chairs specifically" is probably not the chair, but the fact that the chair facilitates longer "sedentary bout lengths". If this is correct, then the commenter suggesting to get up and move every so often is probably on point.
Indeed, it's actually what prompted me to go look over the document.
I remember, as a kid, when out and about and before getting into the habit of sitting in a chair all day every day, I would sit on the floor or on random objects, like stones or tree trunks in the countryside. I wouldn't be able to sit still for long periods of time and would need to at least change positions.
Whereas now, in my "ergonomic chair", I can sit for more than one hour at a time with minimal, if any, changes in position. Ditto for my couch (which wasn't marketed as "ergonomic" in any way).
That being said, I've tried using a computer in other positions, like putting the laptop on a coffee table and squatting or sitting on the floor in front of it, or having it rest on my thies while squatting. It gets tiring very quickly, especially in the shoulders and neck area.
So, in my case, what seems to work best is to get up regularly and walk around the room for a bit.
Two hypotheses:
1. I was just incredibly weak due to being sedentary and even a tiny amount of strength training released enough “get stronger” juice to my system that other muscles also got stronger.
2. Pain is a complex phenomena that relies on our bodies being properly calibrated and lack of any kind of strenuous activity mis-calibrated my pain system.
I’m more inclined toward hypothesis 2. Further life experience has led me to believe that our physical and psychological systems are very much dependent on existing in a specific, narrow milieu to function properly.
Lifting weights for one hour twice a week has alleviated my problems completely. I feel healthier than ever!
So even just doing a little bit of mobility exercises with light weights helps a lot.
1) Absolutely seek the advice of a good PT. It's not like going to a chiropractor where you'll get signed up for the "forever plan". You go, pay for a few visits or even just 1 and they will evaluate and give you things to do on your own. You're empowered directly to change your trajectory vs being reliant upon them week after week. In many states PTs have what is called "direct access" meaning they can see and treat you without any MD referrals being required. Also if you can afford it (HSA/FSA accounts are fine here), try to go to a "cash pay" PT that isn't burdened by death grip of our insurance system. You'll get better 1:1 attention and probably a much less overburdened PT.
2) Stand up and walk around at least a couple times an hour (I know, not practical for many of us) for 5 mins or so.
3) Sit on an exercise ball while at your desk and simultaneously think about your posture on a background thread. This will help you with core strength quite a bit over time. This is something most of us with desk jobs (and even most of us period) could use improvement on. She sees serious athletes who even have weak <random latin word> muscles hidden in spots they'd never think about.
4) Sometimes, like when it comes to pain in hands/wrists, you would want to seek out an occupational therapist (OT) instead of or in addition to a PT, who don't specialize in treating those types of dysfunctions.
Good luck getting/staying well!
disclaimer: This is not medical advice and I have zero formal training in any physical or medical science. Consult a professional. :)
This is the easy bit. Just drink A LOT. Pick a drink, any drink. Caffeinated or not, carbonated or not. Whatever you like drinking and fits your diet. Keep drinking it at the appropriate temperature. You can geek out on the drinkware, I got a Stanley Stein, which will keep an iced beverage cool for 8 hours easily.
Nature will make sure you have to get up more than once during the day =)
Come to think of it, I should start practising brushing my teeth with my non-dominant hand, but it might take 30 mins instead of 2, and waste a lot of toothpaste.
I bought an exercise ball for this purpose, but then learned that exercise balls can rupture under you with disastrous consequences. It may happen rarely, but I would rather not risk it.
https://ergify.com/aeris-swopper/
What I discovered this year is hitting golf balls is the right amount of gentle strengthening and accidental PT. I started going to the driving range regularly like 4 months ago and my wrist pain is almost entirely gone.
So mostly this is to say everyone should keep trying and not give up. Every body and injury is different. You just have to experiment and stay active.
Custom trackpads/mice/trackballs haven't gained as much traction, they're not quite as simple as keyboards, and maybe fewer people realise they could benefit from one. I think I might like an upright ergonomic mouse that's shaped to my hand, but then I'm so glued to my keyboard that it hardly seems worth the effort.
As a child I always wanted a chair with a split keyboard built into the armrests. Probalby inspired by Palpatine's fancy chair. Maybe I'll make that investment one day ...
Looked amazing; IIRC the tricky part was how to wire it back to the computer when the chair was on wheels.
I use a Logitech MX Vertical mouse for work, and actually love it for pretty much all non-gaming/pixel-perfect tasks. It feels like it naturally fits my hand in terms of shape and size, which adds up over 40h weeks.
If the signal to noise level is acceptable it has to be doable to improve it until you can type with it right?
Fairly sure the signal to noise level isn't acceptable, unless you are willing to have electrodes permanently implanted in your skull. External BCI is a very basic at the present time.
The cost isn't in "splitting the PCB in half", it's in designing and connecting two halves. In sourcing (usually) high quality mechanical keys. Due to the small batch sizes there's also a good chance these are installed by hand, which is pretty labour intensive. Labour ain't cheap.
Labor is pretty cheap. It takes on average about 2 hours to build a keyboard. If there are no issues, it takes 1 hour. That costs about $25 total on average for labor.
The main cost is the 3d printed shells. We print PLA ourselves for cheap, but we outsource Nylon and Resin to China. These can cost anywhere from $150 to $200 for the entire thing.
The next highest cost are the PCBs. Our connectors, PCB columns for the switches, trackball PCBs, and the "brain" PCB, where all the logic processing happens, end up costing over $100-$150 total.
The total cost to build them ends up being anywhere from $250 (the absolute minimum barebones keyboard) to $400 for higher end boards.
Just some insight.
My take is that ergonomics are personal. Split keyboards work for me.
If your body is complaining, don't ignore it. Take actions. Split keyboard might be one action that helps.
I also use the LG DualUp display at home, like it very much. Similarly, my home setup has the rain design mStand next to it.
Now, if the espresso machine could be also carried with the computer setup..
You may be interested in one of my current projects, I’ll post details when it’s done, but I stripped down a Crossland CC1 and am rebuilding it in an enclosure I can travel with.
I think we’d get along.
I just hope the ingenuity will run out before their body reaches an unrecoverable state.
Their arms and neck hurt from using computers (specifically laptops) in their factory configuration.
They have reconfigured the physical layout to no longer cause pain when used.
That being said with that amount of effort in making an ergonomic workstation, perhaps the first move should have been a dock and a proper screen than can be positioned correctly.
Having multiple desks and desk heights and possibly multiple keyboards is probably what is needed. Not to mention stretching and strengthening.
I'd recommend OP go to physical therapy.
I don't use them very often because I don't mind using a trackpad, but it is useful sometimes.
I have a similar sized keyboard, and the trade off is basically - I move my hands around the keyboard much less, and in return I have to to press more keys. IE, to make the ( symbol I have to press 3 keys, and on a regular keyboard it's 2 keys (shift + 9), but you have to move your hand up and right to a place in the keyboard I don't even have. I'm basically on the home row all the time.
There's also various timing based mechanisms to get around this (ie, hold a key and it does something different if you tap it), but I find it all a bit fiddly and just do basic chording. YMMV.
The big trade-off is layout complexity. My layout[0] is extremely complicated...
[0]: https://www.jonashietala.se/blog/2024/11/26/the_current_cybe...
Corne doesn't have mouse support? My Lily58 does. (I thought they were basically the same expect mine has number keys.)
Cool mouse. I have a CST mouse, which is similar and works for me.
I wonder if there is some way to make the wood monitor mount/tray skimmer or more portable. The first search on Amazon for "desktop laptop stand" pulls up an Amazon basics stand that gives a little more confidence than the wood stand. Of course, it isn't diy.
one complaint: I initially had no idea what a "hook and loop fastener" was, and even then I had to google it to confirm it was velcro