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Can anyone help me make an e-ink laptop? Is there a rake on my lawn?

11 points by singlepaynews ↗ HN
I think this is ultimately a pretty simple project, ~$3000 and some soldering/bios-ing.

The plan is to buy these:

- https://www.eink.com/product/detail/EC133UJ1

- https://shopkits.eink.com/en/product/detail/CONCERTODrivingBoard

- https://www.costco.com/macbook-pro-13.3-inch-%E2%80%93-apple-m2-chip-8-core-cpu%252C-10-core-gpu-%E2%80%93-256gb-ssd-.product.100806152.html

And hire someone to help me write a display driver that supports partial updates similar to the DASUNG’s 25” monitor. Can any embedded engineers weigh in on how big of an ask that display driver would be?

Is there a rake on my lawn? I have flashed cards before to hack a GoPro 8, soldered on breadboards, and partitioned drives, but always as a hobbyist, never professionally; and the dream here is to have an end product that I can use professionally.

Update/Edit: Useful feedback from replies:

- 1. The age of Thinkpad Hackintoshes is sunsetting, and the chips that support it are getting long in the tooth. You can't buy recent Intel chips and expect them to work flawlessly, and the laptops old enough to work are slow and hot.

- 2. the limitations and quirks in changing e-ink pixels are enough that regular laptop software would make for a bad user experience. So you'd spend a lot of time creating workarounds like a a separate LCD line-display showing what characters someone is typing until they hit enter, etc.

- 3. You could find a properly sized USB-C based eink screen and do some very tricky rewiring and not mess with macOS software at all

- 4. Alternatively: consider finding one of these on Ebay if you can for an "official" E-ink Thinkpad: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkbook/thinkbook-plus/lenovo-thinkbook-plus-gen-4-13-inch-intel/len101b0031

And my responses:

(1) This was my primary concern, thank you. I’ll update OP with new plan accordingly—Buy a 13” M2 MacBook and get help writing a display driver

(2) IMO the limitation is no longer in the display; DASUNG’s 25” monitor satisfies my display needs perfectly, my itch is/would be scratched successfully by cramming the 13” version of that Kaliedo 3 screen into a 13” MacBook. I know it can be done in theory because this is exactly how I used the DASUNG 25” monitor—it was just HDMI’d to the MacBook, and #justworked. I’m trying to figure out how I would do it in practice though, and assuming there’s more steps involved when buying the display/driver chip and soldering them in.

(3) yes you’re understanding my intent perfectly, but the only plug-and-play screen I’ve been able to find is [B&W only](https://www.amazon.com/DASUNG-Paper-Front-Light-Touch-Monitor/dp/B09VLDK58C/), and I’d like to support color.

(4) This is very likely the best idea. In my perfect world though I’m running OSX to support iMessage, etc. Maybe this is my sign to get off of iPhone though; there are many phone-sized e-ink devices running android that I could start building on. My general theory of useability is that A4 paper and 3x5 index cards were popular before computers for a reason, and one of each of those sizes as an e-ink screen is the longer-term ideal.

22 comments

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slater
> Is there a rake on my lawn

Not sure what you mean by that. Is it akin to "am i about to shoot myself in the foot?"

Also might wanna trim that lenovo link from all the tracking junk ;)

https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadx/le...

singlepaynews
Yes exactly—I’m looking at my own “pretty simple project” statement and thinking famous last words. I have just enough disposable income to try it, and if my foot gets shot I’ll be a sad camper.

Also ty for the link trim; I’ll edit OP

Terr_
IIRC the limitations and quirks in changing e-ink pixels are enough that regular laptop software would make for a bad user experience.

So you'd spend a lot of time creating workarounds like a a separate LCD line-display showing what characters someone is typing until they hit enter, etc.

Random idea: Have the e-ink isplay as an additional device one on the opposite side of the regular screen. When the laptop is open, you can show things like " do not disturb" to others, and when closing the litter shutting it down, it can put up things you can read like upcoming meetings or whatever.

singlepaynews
I’m in the “viability valley” of e-ink applications; happy to give up video, not happy to give up vsCode. I do not care about pen-based notetaking, but I care immensely about installing 3rd-party software outside of an App Store.

I’ve been very pleased with the DASUNG 25” monitor that uses the same Kaleido 3 as the 13” display available from e-ink, which gives me hope, but as the market stands for someone to have a real laptop instead of a tablet there’s going to be a screwdriver involved.

ThrowawayR2
Seems doubtful that you'd get the same refresh rate out of the evaluation e-Ink driver board as the Dasung products? That's a development / evaluation board intended for product development teams with actual engineers to experiment with, not a consumer or even a hobbyist product. IIRC Dasung does a lot of customization to get the performance they do out of their displays.
talldayo
There are a few rakes there, yeah.

1. The age of Thinkpad Hackintoshes is sunsetting, and the chips that support it are getting long in the tooth. You can't buy recent Intel chips and expect them to work flawlessly, and the laptops old enough to work are slow and hot.

2. The refresh rate of E-ink screens is painfully slow and also visually distressing (since the screen inverts color temporarily). This effect isn't a real issue on Kindles or digital signage, but will absolutely be a problem for professional development.

All I'll say is this - many a fool has set out on the road to make E-ink living room televisions just because color E-ink exists. You will find no success stories on YouTube or HN or Reddit because the tech just isn't there yet (sadly).

Alternatively: consider finding one of these on Ebay if you can for an "official" E-ink Thinkpad: https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkbook/thinkbook-p...

singlepaynews
Thank you—#1 is what I was most concerned about, especially with M1/2/3/4 chipsets making hackintoshing less viable. I’m confident enough that if there’s a git repo I can install an OS, but if I need to write the driver personally then I’m going to be up a creek. How much would it cost to hire an OS Engineer to write a new hackintosh package? Would it be possible to do in 9 months of full time work? Could 9 women make a baby in a month?

Re: #2, I’m setting the upper bar for my performance expectation at the DASUNG 25” monitor, which I did love, but couldn’t fit in a backpack.

My use case is in the “viability valley”—I’m happy to give up on video, but not happy to give up on vsCode. COTS e-ink devices don’t fit my professional needs, even though the e-ink screens themselves wouldn’t have an issue.

Alternatively to hackintoshing, how viable would it be to simply buy a 13” M2 MacBook and just install the screen? I’m sure a driver needs to be written, but I imagine “write a display driver” is a more common job description than “write a hackintosh package”?

talldayo
> I’m setting the upper bar for my performance expectation at the DASUNG 25” monitor, which I did love, but couldn’t fit in a backpack.

I haven't used one, so I can't speak specifically to how good it is. I can say that most of the e-ink displays you will find will not have a comparable refresh rate and be absolutely useless for any form of text editing. Your only choice will be sourcing a sketchy knock-off Chinese panel or hacking together some form of overclocked solution, similar to what DASUNG appears to have done.

> I imagine “write a display driver” is a more common job description than “write a hackintosh package”?

I dunno man, you're using MacOS. None of this stuff comes with any warrants or guarantees. What works with SIP enabled today might break the system and require SIP disabled next week. I'm not making any confident assessments on what the scale of work is because you're asking a lot here. Especially if professional use is your goal. I haven't seen people running custom Mac hardware at work in half a decade at least.

singlepaynews
You clearly know more than me about it—can I pay for an hour of your time to noodle on what DASUNG appears to have done? Based on my use of the 25” monitor, whatever they did is adequate, so if it can be replicated with a 13” panel (which based on specs uses the same driver chip: https://shopkits.eink.com/en/product/detail/CONCERTODrivingB...) and bolted to a 13” M2’s hinge then we’re off to the races.
fragmede
You could find a properly sized USB-C based eink screen and do some very tricky rewiring and not mess with macOS software at all.
singlepaynews
I think USB-C is the bridge between this [driver chip](https://shopkits.eink.com/en/product/detail/CONCERTODrivingB...) and the motherboard; that said yes you’re understanding my intent perfectly, but the only plug-and-play screen I’ve been able to find is [B&W only](https://www.amazon.com/DASUNG-Paper-Front-Light-Touch-Monito...), and I’d like to support color.
fragmede
https://www.ebay.com/itm/267086324420 seems like such a display, and wires over to a raspberry pi hat, which at least means it's drivable, though I don't know what kinds of resolution and refresh you'd get over that.
singlepaynews
You’ve got the right idea, that’s a similar-but-different screen manufactured by the same company; the on I’m linking to in OP has a faster refresh rate with the tradeoff of less color saturation.

Edit: importantly, the screen you’ve linked(spectra) has been announced to have a new version with a backing plate of the same material as the one I linked in OP(Kaledo); which would allow a higher voltage and therefore a similar refresh rate to Kaledo with the higher color saturation of the Spectra panel. Would you be available to buy a panel and write a driver this upcoming year?

singlepaynews
Re: Alternatively buy an “official” e-ink thinkpad (and the Lenovo link):

This is very likely the best idea. In my perfect world though I’m running OSX to support iMessage, etc. Maybe this is my sign to get off of iPhone; there are many phone-sized e-ink devices running android that I could start building on. My general theory of useability is that A4 paper and 3x5 index cards were popular before computers for a reason, and one of each of those sizes as an e-ink screen is the longer-term ideal.

decide1000
I have a "e-ink" tablet from Daylight Computer. It has the refresh rate of a normal screen but the look and feel of an ereader. Works without backlight. I searched for the screen on several places, even mailed the manufacturer. But I am not able to buy one.
singlepaynews
In addition to being sold out; I’d like to support color.
catchmeifyoucan
I'm working on this project right now - and I'm looking at everything from chassis to screen from scratch. (unfortunately, v0.1 here is probably going to be B&W). Hoping to have a working prototype in the next few months.

WavShare is probably my rec for e-ink screens and drivers (https://www.waveshare.com/13.3inch-e-paper.htm). You can find those with partial refreshes and HDMI driver boards.

For the driver - the Glider project has some good progress to drive the display and how-tos. See https://gitlab.com/zephray/glider

Agree with other comments - MacOS and other existing software aren't designed for this - I'm writing my own. Scrolling, mouse-dragging and dark mode are just a few of the annoyances. (I have the Dasung 25" as well and it gets frustrating).

Also happy to hop on a call and chat more about this stuff

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vunderba
I've always wanted to try an external e-ink mounted vertically as a side monitor for documents / code views / etc. Honestly I'd be fine with an exceptionally low refresh rate if it would mean a reasonable reduction price - right now I just can't justify > $1200 for a single monitor.

On another note - unlike "streets ahead", I don't think "rake on my lawn" is going to catch on. I had to scratch my head and even after I understood what you were going for - I'm not sure how it makes sense. What's wrong with having a rake on your lawn?