I don't think Ireland has the pub culture you have in mind. Honestly not much to do besides pubs here, and unless you have an established friend group, good luck making one. Locals are in their own bubbles.
Irish people are quite famous for how not lonely they are, so much so that the tiny island only has 2 or 3 subreddits dedicated to making friends and meeting people.
I don't think that is really fair and not restricted to Ireland either. I have visited the Emerald Isle a couple of times, North and South, from the UK.
I found a culture that is definitely different in some ways but just as familiar in most ways. Just as I do in Wales and Scotland.
For example we all share a strange obsession with the weather. Obviously we don't really but the standard rules of chatting about the weather enables an easy start and disengagement from a social encounter. We also suffer from an inability to stop saying goodbye ...
Pub culture as a whole is changing massively. I remember when Ireland banned fags in pubs (a fag is a cigarette). I used to smoke and found it a bit odd having to go outside. Then the UK followed suit. With hindsight, I don't miss quite a lot of the "good old days" of smoke filled rooms that even a tabber's eyes would nearly be bleeding. Brown stained wooden chairs with plum or mustard upholstery and worryingly sticky floors and tables.
I remember chatting to a landlord of my local at the time around 1998. The boozer was called the Globe Trotters (Yeovil, Somerset, UK). It was formerly a cider house called the Globe and now its a modern effort called ... the Globe and Crown. The landlord described how he had to get rid of the "old boys" who would sit in the corner and quietly piss themselves whilst talking bollocks.
Anyway, I'm not sure what pub culture is these days. It probably died of COPD a few years ago.
Despite all that, I do think that the Stammtisch ideal is alive and well in our very odd corner of Western Europe. We just don't give it a name. Perhaps we should. The nearest thing I can think of is pub sports - darts, pool, snooker etc.
I've been playing pool badly for a team for a good 25 years now.
> I don't think Ireland has the pub culture you have in mind. Honestly not much to do besides pubs here, and unless you have an established friend group, good luck making one. Locals are in their own bubbles.
I've been to Ireland many times. So cannot really confirm this.
After a night in a pub I know everyone in the town. Or almost.
I miss the pubs in the UK, but they’re nothing without your mates. In Germany, I have no way of making friends or meeting people, it’s a real struggle. Too broke to go out to Meetups, and at my age it’s hard anyway.
Search for "sozial treff <your city>". Call there and talk to someone. The churches are also good places to ask. German churches organize a lot of social events. If I interpret "at my age" correctly you mean that you are too old. Let me tell you, especially for older people there exists tons of stuff in your city.
Thanks for the tipp - I’ve been trying to volunteer at the refugee centre ON MY ROAD for months but my application is going nowhere. I’m not super old, just entered my sixth decade, but bogged down in parenting instead of socializing.
EDIT: Super Tipp, danke. Habe gleich zwei Treffpunkte in der Nähe gefunden und werde diese im neuen Jahr besuchen.
>In Germany, I have no way of making friends or meeting people, it’s a real struggle
I used to hear this quite a bit from people who work here, as the article hints at we're a country of clubs and associations, most of them free. Be it chess, football, poetry slams, the church choir, the local CCC given that you're on HN, etc. Most unis will let you sit in for free as well. I also wouldn't worry about age. We're not really that age conscious, very few people I know care if they're around people twice their age.
People tend to bash their head in trying to make friends at work but it's probably the worst country to do this, we just work 9 to 5 and go home.
I’m in the middle of Hamburg but ironically in a completely dead spot with nothing going on nearby and surrounded by light industrial parks. I wouldn’t mind improving my guitar skills and finding a jam, even a ukulele jam, but Google searches went nowhere. I don’t have a job, and it’s not looking good either, plus I’m focusing on launching something in the UK, but doesn’t help with severe loneliness here. Thanks for the pointers, will do some more searching for these things.
The first one event mentions regular meetings but not whether they are still happening. I would suggest reaching out to the Vorstand and asking if they know where to look for a jam, they excplicitly write that they see themselves as a networking platform for guitarists in Hamburg.
And as a German I would like to echo what others said about clubs in germany: I have met half of my friendgroup and my long-term partner in a Verein. Nearly every person I know is or was involved in one. Its not always easy to find the right one for you, but I believe it is the most straightforward way to expand ones social circle in Germany.
Thanks for those, hadn’t found them, but I’ll get in touch to see if things are still running. Great tips.
Good tip on CCC too from previous poster, they’re not far from me, they’re near to stuff I know in Altona, I will grab a mask and head to an Open Chaos night. I passed my B1 earlier this year so my German sucks less than it used to but is still terrible.
This year has honestly speaking been terrible, but all I can try to do is either go back home or find some people to talk to here. You gotta work with what you’ve got.
I also live in Hamburg and yeah it’s extremely difficult to meet people here considering it’s such a huge city, especially if you live south of the Elbe
Yes, South seems to be South of the Ganges, where nothing happens and nobody goes.
For my part, I find the city tiny as I can cycle to the other side in less than forty minutes, which I love, it’s so fast to get around. I’ve been to a few non-tech meetups but they are short and fleeting and quite insubstantial. Still, here we are, send me an email/dm if you want to connect for a cup of tea somewhere equally inconvenient in the Mitte, like one of those Treffpunkts!
Hey, you two! I'm also in Hamburg. I'm also up for a beverage. You can reach me at canolcer@hey.com. We can also meet up the three of us if we manage...
quick advice, i would remove the email address from you post while you still can edit it, and instead point to your profile where you can remove or change the email address later if need be.
> quick advice, i would remove the email address from you post while you still can edit it, and instead point to your profile where you can remove or change the email address later if need be.
Too late, but it's fine. I have been posting my email address publicly for a while and not much spam.
> i used to live in hamburg, i would totally join up if i was there.
It's a swedish game where you take zones with GPS irl. There aren't many german turfers yet but the ones around seems very social. Chat in game and on Discord, starting to organize meetups too. The added benefit is everyone can see where you are and meet up for a chat just there :-)
We joined a boardgame group when we lived in Berlin. We made a couple of friends, which was great, but even without that it was a good social experience. And I don't speak German, so we had to only play people whose English was up to it, which was limiting (but not as much as you'd expect). If your German is acceptable then you'll do much better.
the nice thing about boardgames is that they also work for introverts. you don't have to be chatty or engage in conversation topics that you find boring. you can use the game as a proxy to interact with people and allow you to become comfortable with each other. more so if you are a cooperative and helpful player. if you are engaged in the game noone will notice if you haven't said a word all evening.
if language is an issue you can find a translation of the rules of most games online to help you out with learning a more complex game.
I was explaining this to younger friends over the weekend - before everyone had phones in their pockets, we would head to the pub. Every Friday and Saturday evening, same pub, same time. A bunch of us would be there, and the night would progress from there. If you couldn't make it, you didn't turn up, simple as.
If we were feeling sociable on a weeknight, we headed to the same pub. There'd usually be one or two others that felt the same, and they'd introduce us to others, and the circle spread.
Go to the pub more than 3 times over a couple of weeks and you'd start to be known as a regular, and introduced to the other regulars. Over time, those random introductions became the core of your social life.
Now, of course, we don't need to do this because we can tell the group chat which bar we're meeting at. I'm not sure it's an improvement.
agreed, but it became self-sustaining because we didn't have the option to do otherwise; getting hold of everyone to change the venue for next Friday was really painful, so we just stuck to going to the same place each week.
As a UK resident who's recently given up alcohol, the pub culture part is the thing I miss the most. The quick pseudo-answer is non-alcoholic drinks, but it creates a weird dynamic when most of the group gets slowly inebriated over the evening, and you sip lemonade
I've never drunk and find pubs awkward and generally un-fun. Some of that is I maybe want one small soft drink a day at most anyway, and I'm quickly just standing/sitting without a drink, worrying I've got nothing to say, and seeing no good reason to be there. 100% on me, and I only mention it as context to the below:
I've seen a lot of people drinking the modern zero/low alcohol beers (lucky saint maybe?) and it largely just works. They're happy, and get to engage feeling pretty much like normal. Obviously if the goal is to get drunk quickly then it sucks, but observationally you've got a fair few rounds before it appears to be a barrier.
I agree. Bars around me also play loud music and/or have sports on TVs all the time, and quickly get too loud to have a coherent and comfortable conversation. Places quiet enough are not set up to have tables pushed together and a longer dwell time as people come in and out.
As a kid I joined my dad at a regular stammtisch that met at a Starbucks in the evening. That worked well, but I do think it would have benefited not just by having typical Starbucks drinks but also a few beers (giving the choice to the patrons).
As noted in the article, a coffee shop works well. But it can be tough to find a place where again it’s possible to pull a big table together. So many cafes now cater to laptop users plugging in for hours, but not necessarily for getting groups together who want to talk.
I'm part of a group that regularly meets at a pub and some only drink water. There's zero issue with that. The goal is not to get drunk: it's to have fun and discuss all together while enjoying two or three beer for those who like beer.
also my experience, when meeting with friends on austria i was often the only one who didn't drink alcohol. i can't remember a single time that anyone would notice or say anything about it.
Even in a small-ish city, the meanings of "drinks" and "drinking" can vary enormously, depending on the group of people.
I had a "burgers and beers" meal at a pub with some friends on Saturday. Our maximum alcohol consumption was 1 beer; minimum was 0. Several decades ago, I might have had a second beer. Maybe a dessert, too.
In the U.S. the name Stammtisch has often been co-opted by German-speaking clubs. I myself helped usher the Philadelphia one through a low point 20 years ago. They are much bigger now, with at least 4 weekly meeting around the Philly area (I have since moved out of the area):
That's a nice thing to have. Although since marriage and especially child birth I usually need to fight for loneliness instead. Maybe I'll do it when I'm old, you know, alone.
you want alone time but also time away from family, which can be filled by meeting others. i know it's not easy, but i would try at least once a month. also arrange the same for your partner.
you want friends that allow you to share and open up on problems that you face. as soon as you have your first fight you'll want some else to talk to.
a psychologist also told me that putting all your companionship needs on your partner can be burdensome. for example if i like to play board games and my wife doesn't then i better keep meeting others to play instead of giving up playing
I think you've hit on the solution for most people going forward: prioritise getting married and starting a family while you're young. Don't leave it to chance or assume it's impossible. It's not the burden that our culture is making it out to be whereas loneliness is a large and growing problem.
In an era when humanity is more connected than ever in history, loneliness is decidedly a "you" problem unless you have some sort of medical condition that inhibits socializing.
Americans are more socially disconnected than ever in my lifetime, and I'm pretty old and have lived all over. There's a well-studied epidemic of loneliness and confusion. So perhaps you could refine your terms.
In what world are you living in where humanity is connected? If anything, technology has only driven us further apart. Those mission statements from social media companies are nothing but empty platitudes.
The loneliest I’ve ever been was as a new parent with an abusive and distant spouse. I went years without any positive interactions or connection with another adult.
This was also a thing in Alsace (France), under the same name. However I only ever heard of it from my mother, as it is was a thing people did when she was young, but isn't a thing anymore since decades. Maybe in a few villages?
Dumb American moment: I once visited Germany for a conference in Munich. My hotel was out in a rural town on the train line. One night my colleagues and I walked out the door for an adventure and into the first restaurant we found, a tiny little place.
We sat down at the Stammtisch.
The waitress kindly told us that we should move. Then everybody in the place was kind of cold to us, until someone picked up from our conversation that we were from the US. The waitress tentatively asked: "Are you Americans?" Yes. "Oh, we thought you were English." All of the sudden the whole place warmed up to us, and they even brought us complimentary glasses of the house liqueur, which I can tell you was quite potent.
I don't know why they liked Americans better than English, and we didn't press the matter.
Not from Europe, but it reminds me of how Amsterdam has been actively discouraging young men from the UK from visiting because they have a reputation for being rowdy and getting in trouble.
I haven't been there in 20 years but I'm not surprised.
Back then there was a tidal wave of drunk, loud men from the UK whenever they had a bank holiday.
My unsolicited advice to people wanting to visit the city has always been to not go during UK long weekends and if they're only looking for drugs and sex, that both can be sourced closer to home.
Once in France, a bouncer wouldn't let me in a club because I wasn't dressed properly -- so I was waiting outside while my friend went inside to look for someone.
After about a minute the bouncer asked "English?".
I said "Well I speak english but I'm American, from Tennessee". He immediately smiled broadly and opened the door for me to enter.
Usually a couple Brits can't behave themselves at larger events (Oktoberfest, Euros) and make it into the news cycle - commonly paired with a backhanded comment like "The British underestimated the potency of German beer yet again".
There's also a large rivalry in soccer and balconing; combined with history and Brexit it really isn't a mystery.
From what I understand from my European friends is that English vacationers have a bad reputation for getting belligerently drunk when on "holiday" that dates back many years.
"thug; hoodlum," first found in British newspaper police-court reports in the summer of 1898, almost certainly from the variant form of the Irish surname Houlihan, which figured as a characteristic comic Irish name in music hall songs and newspapers of the 1880s and '90s.
You don’t know history, it’s been like that for centuries. It’s also something a cheeky English chap might do while on holiday in Germany. The history of that area of the world runs deep.
While in Europe, there's no extensive beefs with the Americans in sports like there are between football (soccer) fans from any two given countries in Europe.
Many brits cannot behave when they are on vacation, mostly because of alcohol. Not all of them, but a significantly high portion of them compared to other countries. But german have similar reputation regarding being drunktards especially when in large groups.
Other nationalities may have their own reputations and clichés. Spanish people are loud, french people complain about everything and don't make a single effort to speak the local language, etc.
As always it is always about statistics and the biggest groups tend to have the more stereotypes and generalizations. But clichés often exist for a reason.
They dress loud, but AFAICT that's only a Spaniards in Berlin thing. They guy with the top hat, circus vest, short shorts and tights and golden wings on his sneakers, very likely Spanish.
hamburg is different. due to its harbor there is a long history of trading with england and other places, which i think has allowed the english and other foreigners to develop a different and in particular long standing reputation going back centuries, and also locals getting used to them, as opposed to elsewhere where foreigners only started showing up once tourism became more common.
Why does everybody thinks first this has something to do with your nationality? This is the Stammtisch. I'm from Germany and when I come with my little son to a restaurant we also can not sit there. Same right for all
They might have been offended assuming that Englishmen in Germany would have some basic knowledge of German pub culture. So they took you sitting down at that table as a deliberate or clumsy faux pas. But then they immediately regretted their hasty generalization and how cold they were to you once they figured out you were American. And then they had to make it up to you. Because they knew that expecting Americans to have any cultural understanding while in Europe/Germany is completely unreasonable.
Every Friday night, a bunch of us friends (usually men) get together, and have dinner at some local joint.
We actually interact with each other at other times, during the week, but the Friday dinner is kind of special.
I'm fortunate to be involved in an organization that includes a great deal of interaction with others, but I know that the norm for men my age, is sitting on the recliner, remote in hand.
Had a small circle that did the same every Friday evening. But as time passes, members have gotten more commitments, and the whole thing got dispersed.
I'd like to believe that I was one of the more avid members, but waiting alone for up to hours for the next guy to pop up, made me quit too.
Last I heard, only two to three members are left, and its a somewhat odd lunch held around 3-4pm.
I think successful groups almost always have a core of devoted people who will show up on time, rain or shine, enough for the event to succeed. If you were alone for hours waiting for other people, that was a really bad sign IMO.
Switching from weekly to monthly helped revitalize a group I meet up with. Getting together every week was becoming too much for folks with kids and attending randomly resulted in sparse attendance. Consolidating on all meeting the same week of the month restored critical mass which made people want to attend more.
I meet with a few men every 6 or 7 weeks in a similar fashion to a Stammtisch. We talk about nothing and everything. It’s more about creating the space for things to come out than any individual meeting.
I’m gradually finding that my mission in life may be to fight the widespread atomization we all feel by any means necessary.
> It seemed like a typical bar hang — until one of the guys planted a little flag on the table: an insignia for their group.
That seemed a bit odd: Why do these pals have a flag? Turns out, this was no random meetup for a pint. It was a Stammtisch.
"It was a Stammtisch" doesn't explain why there was a flag placed on the table other than that maybe it's common for a flag to be part of this kind of gathering group. But still....why? There are plenty of groups that meet regularly. It's unusual to plant a flag like that. Book clubs, bridge game meetups, regular pints with a friend group (that isn't a Stammtisch), Sunday brunch group, etc. None of these kinds of groups plant flags.
Book clubs and other discussion-focused groups that are open to new attendees often put up a "flag" so the new people can find the group in a public place. It's just not a literal flag, but some other kind of sign.
If the group's activity is easily visible and distinct from what everyone else is doing, it's not necessary.
Stammtisch can be used like that, but it can also mean the physical table ("Tisch" means table) where a specific group meets. Meaning, in some pubs, a table marked as such is effectively reserved only for this specific group of regulars. I think this is getting rarer, but I still see it from time to time.
This article really hits home. I've experienced the same struggle with loneliness in a new city. The idea of a structured social gathering, like a Stammtisch, makes a lot of sense. Maybe I should find a local group or even start one myself.
I heard about these decades ago when studying German in college. Always wondered how the bar/pub deals with these. Is there one stammtisch per establishment? Otherwise it seems like a place could be full of groups not "turning over tables" in the metaphorical sense.
In Kolkata where I was born but didn't grow up, this is called "Adda" culture[1] at coffee houses. I guess in Germany they would call this Kaffeekränzchen. Super interesting how this pops up organically in most urban settings. Would love to join a new movement around this in my town.
I live in PNW right now, and man, oh man, I dearly miss even a watered down version of a "3rd place bar culture" of the east coast. Would be so awesome to have a designated place to just have a drink and chat with your neighbours. There are bunch of coffee shops, but most people are free in the evening. And getting just a tiny bit loose and shooting the shit is definitely more of a bar thing.
I know financially it would never make sense, but having a local pub with extremely cheap membership ($5/month) with discounts to the neighbourhood residents (maybe based on postal code on your ID?) would do wonders to me. Use that tiny bit of cash to host small events, advertise it as the meeting place for anyone who wants to come, be a bit strict against unruly people who makes others uncomfortable... I can only dream!
Problem is the funding. I can't really afford to risk at the bare minimum of $300K and try to grow it from there myself. Maybe one day, or if I find someone who shares the passion. If only there could be some weird AI angle to throw in to get some funding, am I right?!
The second you start serving alcohol, you start being liable for things people do after they leave your establishment. Or even in your establishment. Your personal assets are at stake, and at that point, it doesn’t make sense to run something as a charity.
Yeah, I wouldn’t even enjoy running it as a charity, as that would be an enormous sacrifice. I wonder if someone did a cost analysis of Costco-style membership analysis for a bar.
I personally know people who avoid specific bars because specific patrons have been jerks, and they’re making others uncomfortable. Some sort of simple membership could keep them out.
tokyioyoyo was writing about making a place with the goal of having people meet and hang out. A bar doesn’t necessarily have that goal, it may have a goal of meeting a certain amount of revenue, most easily accomplished by incentivizing turnover.
Yeah, I wasn't talking about a "meetup group". I was talking about a spot where I could go on any given day, sit down, have a drink and just chat with whoever is sitting nearby, with the chances that they also live somewhere nearby. Think of British pub culture, but imported to PNW. In my area, we have exactly 0 of those spots, despite having a decent amount of bars and restaurants in the area.
As it was mentioned in the comments, it usually boils down to regulation and financial problems to have a place like that, unless you've been grandfathered in.
I guess your only choice is to vote for representatives that remove stupid zone rules and/or stop living in suburbia, and move to a city or a small town or to a different country. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I was chatting with a guy running a bakery/board game store. He was saying how hard the finances were (the store eventually folded), and he mentioned the price of alcohol insurance. The store didn't serve alcohol, so I asked why he had it. He said that (at least in Pennsylvania), if a visibly intoxicated customer left his store and got into an accident, he could be sued. Maybe not successfully, but it wouldn't necessarily be thrown out by the judge. It's why there are so many stores with BYOB around me: if they have to get insured anyways, might as well invite the business.
The US has an enormous problem with the costs of litigation gumming up society’s gears. From healthcare to police to even just having a neighbor’s kid get injured in your backyard.
Anyone that has an option to earn good W-2 income would need a huge carrot to incentivize them to forego that low liability lifestyle and instead opt to start their own business, especially one where you invite people into your premises.
Until you are making good money (and this can take 10+ years) and can afford lawyers, you are at the mercy of the legal system.
I feel this so strongly. same story as you, and the postal code idea is brilliant.
I've traveled to the Northeast US a fair bit and am so surprised at how many drinking establishments those towns can support (or not, if the bars are in decline).
Take Manayunk, a town that got amalgamated into present day Philadelphia. It's on a commuter rail line that leads to Center City. A pretty little town with humble homes on small roads nearby. The name of the town means "the place to drink" in the Lenape language. You couldn't design a more idyllic small-town so close to a heavily urbanized area, in my opinion. But I digress.
While walking around with a tomato pie I was trying to finish before taking the train downtown, I counted about 12 bars full of who looked to be regulars, all on a weeknight. laughs a plenty, no banging club music. just the sound of life from townsfolk who probably go back a few generations at least.
in contrast, the PNW has always had transient worker populations, but even homeless people here often exude friendliness and a willingness to talk to strangers. it may be because they rely more on networks of goodwill than those with salaries and lease agreements. it may be because their living quarters are closer together, whether in the shelter or on the street. whatever the reason, there is a noticable dearth of that human connection with my life in the PNW, and it's such a recurring point of conversation that the horse has now been beaten to a pulp.
the way you long for the pub culture of the Northeast US is all too familiar to me. it's my Disneyland, because it's basically a fantasy when our cities are designed the way they are.
Glad to hear someone else shares these feelings! I've met very kind and amazing people in the area, yet there is just nothing that brings people together. You'll hear from the people in local facebook groups about some small gatherings, but it's just still all "planned". It doesn't replace that "ah, i'm done with work, i'll quickly grab a drink and see who's around!" chats.
I've had incredible nights through just going to the same bar a couple of times during my travels, and people all around the world made me feel welcome. Yet here? No such thing, yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere.
Seeing the place where you have lived for years and decades, and the people who you met a million times, with the eyes and openness of a traveler, would be such a gift. I wonder if it could be practiced somehow.
> yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere
But how hard it is to just tell a person you vaguely know (like neighbors or people who you know from work or venues) "I feel a bit lonely, wanna do something?".. we always have to have a "better" reason than just that. I wonder how many people chat with people they bump into, and then both go home lonely wishing they had a "good reason" to hang out with that other person, like in some weird ass prisoner's dilemma where the punishment is losing face. Probably a lot. But we hear so much about how people are more lonely and isolated, it shouldn't be that embarrassing admit being to be one of those who aren't quite content with their social connections.
If in doubt, I'd suggest finding something to volunteer or help out with. You never have to justify helping out with something where help is needed -- that is, nobody is going to ask if you're not really just there because you're lonely -- and you tend to run into social people. And even when it doesn't spark a friendship it's usually time well spent, and in the rare cases where it's not, just don't go to that particular thing again.
But how hard it is to just tell a person you vaguely know (like neighbors or people who you know from work or venues) "I feel a bit lonely, wanna do something?".. we always have to have a "better" reason than just that.
i think it helps to phrase it differently.
don't say "i am lonely", say, "i work alone and i like to sozialize". or "i am a very social person and i don't get enough interaction at work". to a coworker you could say: " i enjoy talking to you, want to hang out after work" or something like that.
i agree that "i am lonely" potentially comes across as needy, so i would focus on the general positive aspects of socializing.
i should note that i didn't have any opportunity to apply these myself but i was occasionally on the receiving side being invited to join others without any specific reason other than hanging out together. which is actually another approach. look for existing groups and see if you can join them
One issue is that the "local pub" is less local, since building places like that (or even cafes) in the neighbourhoods where people live is illegal. I loved having a corner pub when I lived in Dublin.
Though regarding membership - maybe check out an Elks club?
I live in one of the densest neighbourhoods in NA, and I definitely agree with you how it's mostly illegal to open a pub in extremely residential zone. That being said, there are like 10 bars I can think of that's around me. But none cater for that "local pub" atmosphere.
What's Elks club? My googling only led me to something in New Westminster, if that's the thing you're talking about.
He means the elks fraternal club or other similar clubs. There used to be a bunch of these clubs for getting together often with secret or fake mystic symbols like the Freemasons. Many of them started charities and volunteer activities but are also a club you can identify with (like a sports fandom) and often drink with other members at their lodge building.
And since its a national organization with local chapters I think you could probably join a diferent chapter after you move. Sure your friends won't be there but being at the same meetings/drinking together maybe volunteering together and having the fraternal order as part of your shared identity might make making new friends easier.
Of course since most of these orgs are old and were started by old white dudes many used to be male only and ban minorities (although most probably haven't in decades that history may dissuade many). Also many are dying out/largely full of seniors although I found this article which claims some recent growth due to people seeking third places and friendship. Also note I have never been a member of any of these and may have gotten some things wrong.
> But it’s also part of a national phenomenon: For the first time in 35 years, the Elks are growing. Average member age is down from 69 to 61. Membership is exploding in San Francisco, the Florida Keys, North Carolina, and dozens of other areas, including the bedroom communities of New Jersey, where Eli Manning was just voted to membership. Each of those lodges has a story of where that growth is coming from, yet the impulse remains constant: seeking connections, with people who are not necessarily like them, in dusty old buildings with $2 drafts and animal heads hanging over the doorway.
...
> The Elks and similar fraternal organizations were part of a broad trend of “joining” and civic engagement that started in the 1880s, dropped off during the Great Depression, and surged following World War II. “Fraternal organizations,” writes historian Robert D. Putnam, “represented a reaction against the individualism and anomie of this era of rapid social change, asylum from a disordered and uncertain world.” Many provided “material benefits” like life and health insurance, as well as “social solidarity and ritual”; by 1910, more than one-third of adult males over the age of 19 were a member of at least one.
>Some, like the Jaycees, the Rotary Club, the Kiwanis, and the Lions, were more explicitly business-oriented; others, like the Odd Fellows, were more invested in providing care for their members; while the Black Elks, Black Moose, and dozens of others developed similarly robust organizations segregated from their white counterparts. The Elks were officially desegregated in 1973, but black members were routinely denied membership through the 1980s. Today, most lodges have diversified: While many, especially in rural areas, remain largely white, there are dozens of clubs whose membership is almost entirely black; in Charlottesville, Virginia, the Elks Club has become “the only real place for black folks to go.”
...
> The specific lore of the early Elks has filled books, but the bare facts, as presented during a recent Ballard new member orientation, are easier: “Some actors wanted to drink on Sundays, which wasn’t allowed at the time, so they put together a private club so they could succeed at that. Gradually that group started doing more with charity, and a lot more with veterans, but it was pretty much a men’s organization.”
> The group voted to name itself the Elks, narrowly defeating the Buffaloes, and borrowed much of ...
They have "lodges" (clubs) which I would assume are quite variable but many have bars in them. They do a lot of community-service work.
I went to an event in an Elks Lodge a long time ago, I think it was Thanksgiving. My grandfather was an Elk. (Yes, that sounds funny if you don't know who the Elks are.) I didn't see the bar, if there was one, but the atmosphere was really nice: older folks but very outgoing and friendly.
Membership criteria, from their home page:
* Be at least 21 years of age.
* Believe in God.
* Be a citizen of the United States who pledges allegiance to and salutes the American Flag.
* Be of good character.
If you meet these criteria I think it'd be worth looking into a membership, even if just as a hedge against loneliness in case things don't work out as you planned.
Oh, and I see the Canadians have their own version, with a more modern website:
Ah, I see. Thank you, sounds interesting! Unfortunately, I don’t think I would be welcome in such clubs. But hope they’re doing well, and I’m sure the members are great people as well!
Yeah, I’ve never been, I just remembered reading about these places where you had a monthly dues to a social club and just hung out. It sounds fun except for the baggage.
The citizenship requirement is asinine (immigrants are great at conversation, almost by necessity!) and the god thing would be off putting….
people who live there don't want a bar (which here, often means drunk, yelling, rowdy, drunk-driving, publicly-urinating people) going up right next door to their house/condo. Other example of zoning laws would be auto repair shops (15 broken-down oil-leaking cars parked down the street). each city can decide these things.
there are some but only ones which have kept going from before zoning came in in the 40s-60s. that's why they always look old; since then the overhead of zoning means that generally only commercial / managed places have the capital to fight the regulations to just build a little corner where you and some local friends can spend money
note that hanging out and drinking w/out money IS legal, but as soon as you sell a hot dog or a beer, boom now the state has some lawyers for you to talk to and you're 100% blocked until we are satisfied you have done everything we want.
Yeah, I’m on the younger side, compared to the old timers I’ve met at the bars. But from what I’ve gathered, nowadays, people want to choose their friends and curate their circles. There’s much less importance given to serendipity and just local connections. Some sort of easy activity (weekly grab-a-drink at a pub) would be great, but convincing people that it is a great way to spend time might be a challenging (but fun!) mission.
Was in London recently, and my friend dragged me to her watering hole on the first night… made me jealous instantly.
> be a bit strict against unruly people who makes others uncomfortable...
That's the crux of the issue. Since the rise of individualism, everyone has a different definition of "fun", which means that everyone has different expectations, and it becomes impossible to organize anything that is actually fun for everyone. Case in point: why work parties are so dry? Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator.
A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.
> Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator.
I know bartenders who have a customer list that they never serve for various reasons. It’s easier to implement it in a neighbourhood level, as there’s an implied “we’re a part of the same group, so try to behave” understanding.
> Case in point: why work parties are so dry?
I get what you’re saying, but my work parties have been nothing but dry (and definitely, very far from dry) up until my current job. I just changed a few months ago though, and until I relocate, can’t really experience what they have to offer.
Agreed about the party hosting part though. It’s pretty tough to get some of my friend circles to do something together for the same reason. We can usually muster up for our big traditions though, which I think can be done in a local level too.
> there’s an implied “we’re a part of the same group, so try to behave” understanding.
Ok but why would I go to places where I need to behave, if I can just drink at home instead, without needing to behave? I've been behaving the entire week already, give me a break.
There's a very big range between "behave like a 10 year old school child on their first day at school" and "get absolutely plastered, and start sexually harassing your neighbours". And no, I'm not making things up, I've seen this happen, personally. If the latter is a 10, an establishment could kick anyone out above the level of 8. Get drunk, misbehave to a point, break a pint or two throughout a year, that's fine.
The problem is, you can't objectively measure the unacceptableness of particular behavior. You can't tell a guy "you see, our unacceptableness meter shows 8.1 unacceptableness units, while our limit is 8, so you're out". It's all relative to social dynamics of particular group. Learning and following those dynamics costs energy, and if I'm spending my energy on something, I want a return on my investment. That's why I don't hang out with random people, but rather with people whose views on social norms align with mine.
As a guest I'm feeling less confortable when the host is organizing something specially for me: I'm coming to have time with you, probably talking. Eating, smoking or whatever is a nice plus if we happen to share the same interest and if we don't that's fine, I won't have a bad time if you didn't prepare my favorite meal. I'm not the birthday kid.
I understand some people fun is to organise for other folk's fun, that's a generous motivation. But sometimes just behaving/organizing the way you likes it yourself makes other more confortable. Just tell them what food you'll prepare, if smoking inside/window is allowed and at what time you'll be ready. If they're grown up they'll manage to have fun by themselves, they come to see you not for your food.
> Since the rise of individualism, everyone has a different definition of "fun"
I don't think this is anything new. Back one or two centuries ago there were clubs and societies for people having common interests, social classes and behaviors.
> A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.
I think you overthink it. The one who organize is the one who decides. You define a place, people adapts or don't come. Simple as that.
In any group of friends or acquaintance, there are those that comes since the beginning, other who are always late, some who always leave early, some who are heavy smokers and spend all their time smoking outside, others who can't handle the smoke and stay inside and some who adapt and spend time in both area. Some people who always disappear for a while. In that group, some people barely spend time together. That is fine, you don't have to be the all of us together from start to finish.
I was in Iran 5 years ago and the "3rd place" was the tea/coffee places full of men mostly talking and playing chest during the hotter part of the day. Women gathered at home on their huge sofas. At Friday/Saturday night (IIRC) all the cities families go out and gather in public parce for night picnics. It's a fantastic experience to have. People make music, kids plays together, and families talk to each other over the shoulder. There's many wrong things with that country but ho boy they know of to gather. People bring their huge carpets and some food/drinks. Sometime they're walking merchants or a small kiosk.
I now live in suburb of Paris, there's probably more muslims that in the average French city (but they're still a strict minority) but no coffee place neither an alcool one and definitely not collective picnics at night.
Canadian Iranian here , yes it’s a common name, even my dad was called “Ali” short for his full name “Alireza”.
Also I agree with everything parent said, we always go out, we even have trips with the 2-3 families and sometimes friends join as well.
Chess and Soccor are huge in Iran, you see kids running around in the street playing all the time and in the evening we have “parties” where people come to share food and then go out.
It’s very different from the West, I don’t even know what western nations would look like with that setup, it can get chaotic and there are many regulations that prevent these anyway like making noise outside after dark or kids being lowed to run in the streets with cars passing; not to mention the subtlies of not invading people’s personal spaces or coming off as a “creep” / annoying person here. In Iran no one cares and you just chat with anyone..
Really interesting stuff - also goes some way to explaining the absolutely massive gatherings you see on Iran on occassion.
As a probably permanent expat with kids, I've been looking for some sort of more social and family oriented culture to raise them, and stuff like that sounds amazing. If we could just pick and choose the parts that each culture excels at!
Though with Alireza I was referring to Alireza Firouzja - a top 10 chess player in the world who also ended up in France like the earlier poster.
From may to October, you should go to the 'quai de seine', between the Seine and Jussieu/jardin des plantes. It's young, but you'll see families, a lot of people learning to danse and picnic. With the occasional rose/wine seller. Probably the Parisian place I hate the less, with 'Chez Amel' near Canal st Martin (La station is fine also but too snob for me).
Old (American) geezer PoV - that sounds very similar to any number of fraternal and veterans organizations of a half-ish century ago. And not dissimilar to what many municipalities are trying to do with senior citizens' centers. And ...
Financially, the secret to the old fraternal and veterans halls was that they were built when it was (relatively) cheap & easy to build in America. And their membership was dedicated enough to pay for that, then do most of the work of running the place.
These days...a few such place and organizations persist. But mostly, relentless capitalism has optimized away American's willingness to undertake any activity which fails to enrich Wall Street.
These small local bars are usually illegal in the US unless they’ve been grandfathered in. The solution probably isn’t some fancy new membership scheme, just literally allowing them to exist in the first place. At least, we should try that first.
They're discussing relatively urban areas. As an American who has lived in the middle of nowhere, every little town still has a pub. I've been in many towns with nothing but a post office and a bar to servic the under 100 residents.
I would bet it is simply an emergent phenomenon of individual interests coalescing. Everyone wants commercial establishments near them, but not next to them.
Same as having lots of space for yourself, but also living near everything.
In the US especially post WW2 we implemented a zoning system which mostly groups the same type of building (residential, commercial, industrial) together.
In a place with residential zoning you can't just build a pub without getting an exception to that zoning approved.
So many Americans living in residential suburban houses have to get in their car and drive 5-20 minutes to get to some sort of commercial center, strip mall, shopping area, etc. that has stores, bars, and restaurants.
There is starting to be a major pushback on this as people realize that having nice towns (not even necessarily cities) with dense mixed-use centers of walkable apartments, townhouses, shops, restaurants, bars, etc. is actually both pleasant and good for business. In the strict separate-zoning model you tend to get more chain establishments and fewer interesting local options because things are spread out and there isn't enough foot traffic in any given place to win over new business.
We used to have some of these. Back when rents were much lower.
eg The Last Exit on Brooklyn (near Univ of Wash campus). Just show up. Very diverse clientele. All tables were open (no bogarting open seats). Cribbage, go, chess, boardgames, whatever. Mostly with strangers. There was also regular poetry slams, open-mic, music, whatever.
Is it because we banned indoor smoking? People used to just hang out and smoke, taking in the vibe. (Gods, as a non-smoker, I loved cigs and espresso and cribbage and talking shit. Not that I'd ever want to allow indoor smoking again...)
Is it because places like Mox require merch sales to remain viable? Alcohol sales are way down, so venues need something.
Any way. As an old, if my local public library served espresso, I'd never leave. Our book club has tried to meet at libraries a few times, but it always sucks. Our libraries are definitely not "third places".
I absolutely agree with every single sentence. I've tried some group meet ups as well, but it just doesn't pan out. Going out by myself is also boring in the area, because for whatever reason, everything feels like a "destination for a group". I enjoy going out for drinks with friends, sure, but would be nice to have the "sit at the bar, shoot the shit, and have a drink by myself" option.
From my previous experiences, that culture is still alive in parts of Europe, Hong Kong, Japan and so on. But it just doesn't work here...
My guess is the alcohol prices, as convincing yourself that paying $13 for a drink + tip, is not a good idea if you do it a couple of times a week. Ideally, you'd want people without money to be able to afford it as well, as they tend to be the "culture makers" because of the time and availability. Alas, it's hard to make that happen in current economy.
Oh well, we're stuck in this weird predicament, i guess.
Come to Harry's on 15th on Thursdays (8:30 pm + ). It's where the local hackers (2600 and DEFCON crowd) usually hang out and socialize. Ask Will (the bartender, who's great) for the hacker crowd and he'll point you in the right direction.
I moved up here 6 months ago, and it's been a great group of people to hang out with. The conversations are tech/tech-adjacent for the most part, but I've also spent hours chatting about Magic The Gathering, Seattle Public Transit, and Neal Stephenson. I got my HushCon invite just from showing up regularly enough that people recognized me.
I actually found out about this because of another meetup on Thursdays: Black Lodge Research up in Redmond has an open night from 7:00 pm onwards. Great little makerspace, and a welcoming community. But it's definitely a schlep up there, especially after a workday so I haven't been back in a couple of months.
I'm not a big drinker, but it's nice to have a constant event on Thursday evenings that I can look forward to having a beer or two at (I actually have a custom drink that I came up with Will called "Pondwater" -- building up some lore like that is fun and is a sign of setting down some roots). I'd say Harry's is my "local bar" since I live about a 15 minute walk away. On the note of social drinking, there's a few sober people who come as well, and there's no compulsion at all to drink alcohol to be a part of the in-group. Hope I see you there sometime and I'd be happy to introduce you to the crowd; look for the Indian guy :)
> Don’t you already need to know the people before you are part of the Stammtisch?
You do. And the classical eponymous Stammtisch isn't really inviting to newcomers. I've spent time in German Wirtshäuser (but maybe it's more extreme in Bavaria) sitting at a table next to the Stammtisch alone but they would never invite you to their table.
It's just not how it works, at least in Bavaria. Usually the Stammtisch is an extremely tightly-knit group of locals that frown upon everything new. Somehow over many years you might earn your right to an invitation.
Also if you go to a Wirtshaus it is easy to spot the Stammtisch (the actual table - it always has a bell) and even if it is empty you may not just sit there without permission just like in some kind of religious ritual.
Of course everyone is free to use the term to their liking and you call a regular meeting in different locations a "Stammtisch" but that is not how it is traditionally.
I worked in Nuremberg for a while and was kindly invited along to the English Stammtisch which at the time was in different bars on a few nights throughout the month. Lots of English people but also lots of German folk who wanted to work on their English language skills. I made some good friends on those boozy nights and tons of fascinating conversations were had.
Similar thing in Belgium: "stamcafé" or "stamkroeg" in Dutch. It just refers to your local pub which you (and maybe some of your friends) frequent often enough to be a regular. Not to a table. Mine isn't even local, I regularly travel 60km by train for beers and good company in a nice atmosphere.
The flag thing sounds like a very German thing to do. Maybe that's why German tourists are notorious for using towels to try to reserve chairs in tourist resorts the world over? Like draping a flag over a Stammstuhl.
We always liked to organize in fraternities and "Vereine" (club) since the Kaiserreich. Everyone and their mom had a specialised frat or club for identity and community. And they had flags, colors, songs, customs and all of that to show belonging. You have things like the Wandervogelbewegung (think boy scouts), Pfadfinder (actual boy scouts), Bündische Jugend, Schützenvereine and things like that. I really mean there was a (is) community for everyone, complete with uniforms and stuff.
Typing this I get a bit sad that these communities are missing nowadays and didn't really made it into modern life. Hitler used a lot of them for his purposes and after WWII it was just old people is what I think about them nowadays. It's too conservative and traditional for me.
Got a bit off track with the comment, but I was replying to the flag thingy. As a German it makes total sense.
> Maybe that's why German tourists are notorious for using towels to try to reserve chairs in tourist resorts the world over?
Perhaps the Germans started it, but they are by no means the only nation doing this anymore. They may not even be leading in this discipline anymore. Over 20 years ago, I already observed English people reserving the best poolside loungers with towels before sunrise.
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[ 2247 ms ] story [ 7562 ms ] threadA socially accepted central meeting place where people can go and talk to each other. Of course also to eat and drink.
It's the social glue there and has a very very old history there.
Irish people are quite famous for how not lonely they are, so much so that the tiny island only has 2 or 3 subreddits dedicated to making friends and meeting people.
I found a culture that is definitely different in some ways but just as familiar in most ways. Just as I do in Wales and Scotland.
For example we all share a strange obsession with the weather. Obviously we don't really but the standard rules of chatting about the weather enables an easy start and disengagement from a social encounter. We also suffer from an inability to stop saying goodbye ...
Pub culture as a whole is changing massively. I remember when Ireland banned fags in pubs (a fag is a cigarette). I used to smoke and found it a bit odd having to go outside. Then the UK followed suit. With hindsight, I don't miss quite a lot of the "good old days" of smoke filled rooms that even a tabber's eyes would nearly be bleeding. Brown stained wooden chairs with plum or mustard upholstery and worryingly sticky floors and tables.
I remember chatting to a landlord of my local at the time around 1998. The boozer was called the Globe Trotters (Yeovil, Somerset, UK). It was formerly a cider house called the Globe and now its a modern effort called ... the Globe and Crown. The landlord described how he had to get rid of the "old boys" who would sit in the corner and quietly piss themselves whilst talking bollocks.
Anyway, I'm not sure what pub culture is these days. It probably died of COPD a few years ago.
Despite all that, I do think that the Stammtisch ideal is alive and well in our very odd corner of Western Europe. We just don't give it a name. Perhaps we should. The nearest thing I can think of is pub sports - darts, pool, snooker etc.
I've been playing pool badly for a team for a good 25 years now.
I've been to Ireland many times. So cannot really confirm this.
After a night in a pub I know everyone in the town. Or almost.
EDIT: Super Tipp, danke. Habe gleich zwei Treffpunkte in der Nähe gefunden und werde diese im neuen Jahr besuchen.
I used to hear this quite a bit from people who work here, as the article hints at we're a country of clubs and associations, most of them free. Be it chess, football, poetry slams, the church choir, the local CCC given that you're on HN, etc. Most unis will let you sit in for free as well. I also wouldn't worry about age. We're not really that age conscious, very few people I know care if they're around people twice their age.
People tend to bash their head in trying to make friends at work but it's probably the worst country to do this, we just work 9 to 5 and go home.
https://www.hamburgergitarrenforum.de/ https://gitarrehamburg.de/
The first one event mentions regular meetings but not whether they are still happening. I would suggest reaching out to the Vorstand and asking if they know where to look for a jam, they excplicitly write that they see themselves as a networking platform for guitarists in Hamburg.
And as a German I would like to echo what others said about clubs in germany: I have met half of my friendgroup and my long-term partner in a Verein. Nearly every person I know is or was involved in one. Its not always easy to find the right one for you, but I believe it is the most straightforward way to expand ones social circle in Germany.
Good tip on CCC too from previous poster, they’re not far from me, they’re near to stuff I know in Altona, I will grab a mask and head to an Open Chaos night. I passed my B1 earlier this year so my German sucks less than it used to but is still terrible.
This year has honestly speaking been terrible, but all I can try to do is either go back home or find some people to talk to here. You gotta work with what you’ve got.
Edit: Looks like it's completely sold out. Maybe next year?
Thanks for the intel, definitely one for next year!
For my part, I find the city tiny as I can cycle to the other side in less than forty minutes, which I love, it’s so fast to get around. I’ve been to a few non-tech meetups but they are short and fleeting and quite insubstantial. Still, here we are, send me an email/dm if you want to connect for a cup of tea somewhere equally inconvenient in the Mitte, like one of those Treffpunkts!
there recently was post about a site for hn readers to share their location to enable meetups: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42410582
quick advice, i would remove the email address from you post while you still can edit it, and instead point to your profile where you can remove or change the email address later if need be.
Too late, but it's fine. I have been posting my email address publicly for a while and not much spam.
> i used to live in hamburg, i would totally join up if i was there.
Cool!
> there recently was post about a site for hn readers to share their location to enable meetups: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42410582
Yes, I have seen that and added myself to that map. Also, I'm meeting up with somebody from there tomorrow, actually =P
It's a swedish game where you take zones with GPS irl. There aren't many german turfers yet but the ones around seems very social. Chat in game and on Discord, starting to organize meetups too. The added benefit is everyone can see where you are and meet up for a chat just there :-)
[1] https://turfgame.com/
Lycra optional :)
if language is an issue you can find a translation of the rules of most games online to help you out with learning a more complex game.
Music venues with smaller concerts are way better to get in touch with people.
If we were feeling sociable on a weeknight, we headed to the same pub. There'd usually be one or two others that felt the same, and they'd introduce us to others, and the circle spread.
Go to the pub more than 3 times over a couple of weeks and you'd start to be known as a regular, and introduced to the other regulars. Over time, those random introductions became the core of your social life.
Now, of course, we don't need to do this because we can tell the group chat which bar we're meeting at. I'm not sure it's an improvement.
I've seen a lot of people drinking the modern zero/low alcohol beers (lucky saint maybe?) and it largely just works. They're happy, and get to engage feeling pretty much like normal. Obviously if the goal is to get drunk quickly then it sucks, but observationally you've got a fair few rounds before it appears to be a barrier.
As a kid I joined my dad at a regular stammtisch that met at a Starbucks in the evening. That worked well, but I do think it would have benefited not just by having typical Starbucks drinks but also a few beers (giving the choice to the patrons).
As noted in the article, a coffee shop works well. But it can be tough to find a place where again it’s possible to pull a big table together. So many cafes now cater to laptop users plugging in for hours, but not necessarily for getting groups together who want to talk.
I had a "burgers and beers" meal at a pub with some friends on Saturday. Our maximum alcohol consumption was 1 beer; minimum was 0. Several decades ago, I might have had a second beer. Maybe a dessert, too.
https://www.meetup.com/netzwerkphiladelphia/
you want friends that allow you to share and open up on problems that you face. as soon as you have your first fight you'll want some else to talk to.
a psychologist also told me that putting all your companionship needs on your partner can be burdensome. for example if i like to play board games and my wife doesn't then i better keep meeting others to play instead of giving up playing
Loneliness does not need to relate to the number of people you talk to or that you know.
Adda: The secret to Bengali conviviality - https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20210812-adda-the-secret-...
Friendship and Fraternity: The Cultural Nostalgia of Adda in Modern Bengal by Nabamita Das - https://internationalconference.net/program/detail/215
I believe it's still done, but it's mostly too old people. In big cities in Germany you will often seen youth that no longer do it.
We sat down at the Stammtisch.
The waitress kindly told us that we should move. Then everybody in the place was kind of cold to us, until someone picked up from our conversation that we were from the US. The waitress tentatively asked: "Are you Americans?" Yes. "Oh, we thought you were English." All of the sudden the whole place warmed up to us, and they even brought us complimentary glasses of the house liqueur, which I can tell you was quite potent.
I don't know why they liked Americans better than English, and we didn't press the matter.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65107405
My unsolicited advice to people wanting to visit the city has always been to not go during UK long weekends and if they're only looking for drugs and sex, that both can be sourced closer to home.
After about a minute the bouncer asked "English?".
I said "Well I speak english but I'm American, from Tennessee". He immediately smiled broadly and opened the door for me to enter.
There's also a large rivalry in soccer and balconing; combined with history and Brexit it really isn't a mystery.
TIL. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balconing
https://www.balcon.ing
https://glosbe.com/en/de/football%20hooliganism
rowdytum:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/german-english/r...
rowdy:
hooligan (n.):"thug; hoodlum," first found in British newspaper police-court reports in the summer of 1898, almost certainly from the variant form of the Irish surname Houlihan, which figured as a characteristic comic Irish name in music hall songs and newspapers of the 1880s and '90s.
Many brits cannot behave when they are on vacation, mostly because of alcohol. Not all of them, but a significantly high portion of them compared to other countries. But german have similar reputation regarding being drunktards especially when in large groups.
Other nationalities may have their own reputations and clichés. Spanish people are loud, french people complain about everything and don't make a single effort to speak the local language, etc.
As always it is always about statistics and the biggest groups tend to have the more stereotypes and generalizations. But clichés often exist for a reason.
They dress loud, but AFAICT that's only a Spaniards in Berlin thing. They guy with the top hat, circus vest, short shorts and tights and golden wings on his sneakers, very likely Spanish.
We actually interact with each other at other times, during the week, but the Friday dinner is kind of special.
I'm fortunate to be involved in an organization that includes a great deal of interaction with others, but I know that the norm for men my age, is sitting on the recliner, remote in hand.
I'd like to believe that I was one of the more avid members, but waiting alone for up to hours for the next guy to pop up, made me quit too.
Last I heard, only two to three members are left, and its a somewhat odd lunch held around 3-4pm.
But the “glue” that keeps us together, is the organization we’re all members of.
I’m a Christian and have always been so thankful for the rich community and sense of shared values and mission I experience with my church.
Churches provide many of the same benefits. For most of my friends that attend churches, the congregation is more important to them, than the pastor.
I’m gradually finding that my mission in life may be to fight the widespread atomization we all feel by any means necessary.
Hey! I'm in the same boat, shoot me an email!
"It was a Stammtisch" doesn't explain why there was a flag placed on the table other than that maybe it's common for a flag to be part of this kind of gathering group. But still....why? There are plenty of groups that meet regularly. It's unusual to plant a flag like that. Book clubs, bridge game meetups, regular pints with a friend group (that isn't a Stammtisch), Sunday brunch group, etc. None of these kinds of groups plant flags.
If the group's activity is easily visible and distinct from what everyone else is doing, it's not necessary.
Stammtisch can be used like that, but it can also mean the physical table ("Tisch" means table) where a specific group meets. Meaning, in some pubs, a table marked as such is effectively reserved only for this specific group of regulars. I think this is getting rarer, but I still see it from time to time.
[1]: https://www.telegraphindia.com/my-kolkata/places/from-colleg...
I know financially it would never make sense, but having a local pub with extremely cheap membership ($5/month) with discounts to the neighbourhood residents (maybe based on postal code on your ID?) would do wonders to me. Use that tiny bit of cash to host small events, advertise it as the meeting place for anyone who wants to come, be a bit strict against unruly people who makes others uncomfortable... I can only dream!
I personally know people who avoid specific bars because specific patrons have been jerks, and they’re making others uncomfortable. Some sort of simple membership could keep them out.
What is there to fund? You just have to advertise a bit a meetup in some social medias and choose a place.
During the actual event, you aren't the one serving alcohol, there is nothing to be liable with and people are free to order non alcohol drinks.
It is just random people meeting at a bar.
As it was mentioned in the comments, it usually boils down to regulation and financial problems to have a place like that, unless you've been grandfathered in.
Anyone that has an option to earn good W-2 income would need a huge carrot to incentivize them to forego that low liability lifestyle and instead opt to start their own business, especially one where you invite people into your premises.
Until you are making good money (and this can take 10+ years) and can afford lawyers, you are at the mercy of the legal system.
I've traveled to the Northeast US a fair bit and am so surprised at how many drinking establishments those towns can support (or not, if the bars are in decline).
Take Manayunk, a town that got amalgamated into present day Philadelphia. It's on a commuter rail line that leads to Center City. A pretty little town with humble homes on small roads nearby. The name of the town means "the place to drink" in the Lenape language. You couldn't design a more idyllic small-town so close to a heavily urbanized area, in my opinion. But I digress.
While walking around with a tomato pie I was trying to finish before taking the train downtown, I counted about 12 bars full of who looked to be regulars, all on a weeknight. laughs a plenty, no banging club music. just the sound of life from townsfolk who probably go back a few generations at least.
in contrast, the PNW has always had transient worker populations, but even homeless people here often exude friendliness and a willingness to talk to strangers. it may be because they rely more on networks of goodwill than those with salaries and lease agreements. it may be because their living quarters are closer together, whether in the shelter or on the street. whatever the reason, there is a noticable dearth of that human connection with my life in the PNW, and it's such a recurring point of conversation that the horse has now been beaten to a pulp.
the way you long for the pub culture of the Northeast US is all too familiar to me. it's my Disneyland, because it's basically a fantasy when our cities are designed the way they are.
I've had incredible nights through just going to the same bar a couple of times during my travels, and people all around the world made me feel welcome. Yet here? No such thing, yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere.
> yet everyone, including me, complains how we yearn for such a social atmosphere
But how hard it is to just tell a person you vaguely know (like neighbors or people who you know from work or venues) "I feel a bit lonely, wanna do something?".. we always have to have a "better" reason than just that. I wonder how many people chat with people they bump into, and then both go home lonely wishing they had a "good reason" to hang out with that other person, like in some weird ass prisoner's dilemma where the punishment is losing face. Probably a lot. But we hear so much about how people are more lonely and isolated, it shouldn't be that embarrassing admit being to be one of those who aren't quite content with their social connections.
If in doubt, I'd suggest finding something to volunteer or help out with. You never have to justify helping out with something where help is needed -- that is, nobody is going to ask if you're not really just there because you're lonely -- and you tend to run into social people. And even when it doesn't spark a friendship it's usually time well spent, and in the rare cases where it's not, just don't go to that particular thing again.
i think it helps to phrase it differently. don't say "i am lonely", say, "i work alone and i like to sozialize". or "i am a very social person and i don't get enough interaction at work". to a coworker you could say: " i enjoy talking to you, want to hang out after work" or something like that.
i agree that "i am lonely" potentially comes across as needy, so i would focus on the general positive aspects of socializing.
i should note that i didn't have any opportunity to apply these myself but i was occasionally on the receiving side being invited to join others without any specific reason other than hanging out together. which is actually another approach. look for existing groups and see if you can join them
Though regarding membership - maybe check out an Elks club?
What's Elks club? My googling only led me to something in New Westminster, if that's the thing you're talking about.
He means the elks fraternal club or other similar clubs. There used to be a bunch of these clubs for getting together often with secret or fake mystic symbols like the Freemasons. Many of them started charities and volunteer activities but are also a club you can identify with (like a sports fandom) and often drink with other members at their lodge building.
And since its a national organization with local chapters I think you could probably join a diferent chapter after you move. Sure your friends won't be there but being at the same meetings/drinking together maybe volunteering together and having the fraternal order as part of your shared identity might make making new friends easier.
Of course since most of these orgs are old and were started by old white dudes many used to be male only and ban minorities (although most probably haven't in decades that history may dissuade many). Also many are dying out/largely full of seniors although I found this article which claims some recent growth due to people seeking third places and friendship. Also note I have never been a member of any of these and may have gotten some things wrong.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/annehelenpetersen/new-world-orders
> But it’s also part of a national phenomenon: For the first time in 35 years, the Elks are growing. Average member age is down from 69 to 61. Membership is exploding in San Francisco, the Florida Keys, North Carolina, and dozens of other areas, including the bedroom communities of New Jersey, where Eli Manning was just voted to membership. Each of those lodges has a story of where that growth is coming from, yet the impulse remains constant: seeking connections, with people who are not necessarily like them, in dusty old buildings with $2 drafts and animal heads hanging over the doorway.
... > The Elks and similar fraternal organizations were part of a broad trend of “joining” and civic engagement that started in the 1880s, dropped off during the Great Depression, and surged following World War II. “Fraternal organizations,” writes historian Robert D. Putnam, “represented a reaction against the individualism and anomie of this era of rapid social change, asylum from a disordered and uncertain world.” Many provided “material benefits” like life and health insurance, as well as “social solidarity and ritual”; by 1910, more than one-third of adult males over the age of 19 were a member of at least one.
>Some, like the Jaycees, the Rotary Club, the Kiwanis, and the Lions, were more explicitly business-oriented; others, like the Odd Fellows, were more invested in providing care for their members; while the Black Elks, Black Moose, and dozens of others developed similarly robust organizations segregated from their white counterparts. The Elks were officially desegregated in 1973, but black members were routinely denied membership through the 1980s. Today, most lodges have diversified: While many, especially in rural areas, remain largely white, there are dozens of clubs whose membership is almost entirely black; in Charlottesville, Virginia, the Elks Club has become “the only real place for black folks to go.”
...
> The specific lore of the early Elks has filled books, but the bare facts, as presented during a recent Ballard new member orientation, are easier: “Some actors wanted to drink on Sundays, which wasn’t allowed at the time, so they put together a private club so they could succeed at that. Gradually that group started doing more with charity, and a lot more with veterans, but it was pretty much a men’s organization.”
> The group voted to name itself the Elks, narrowly defeating the Buffaloes, and borrowed much of ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_and_Protective_Orde...
https://www.elks.org/
They have "lodges" (clubs) which I would assume are quite variable but many have bars in them. They do a lot of community-service work.
I went to an event in an Elks Lodge a long time ago, I think it was Thanksgiving. My grandfather was an Elk. (Yes, that sounds funny if you don't know who the Elks are.) I didn't see the bar, if there was one, but the atmosphere was really nice: older folks but very outgoing and friendly.
Membership criteria, from their home page:
* Be at least 21 years of age.
* Believe in God.
* Be a citizen of the United States who pledges allegiance to and salutes the American Flag.
* Be of good character.
If you meet these criteria I think it'd be worth looking into a membership, even if just as a hedge against loneliness in case things don't work out as you planned.
Oh, and I see the Canadians have their own version, with a more modern website:
https://www.elksofcanada.ca/about
The citizenship requirement is asinine (immigrants are great at conversation, almost by necessity!) and the god thing would be off putting….
note that hanging out and drinking w/out money IS legal, but as soon as you sell a hot dog or a beer, boom now the state has some lawyers for you to talk to and you're 100% blocked until we are satisfied you have done everything we want.
Was in London recently, and my friend dragged me to her watering hole on the first night… made me jealous instantly.
That's the crux of the issue. Since the rise of individualism, everyone has a different definition of "fun", which means that everyone has different expectations, and it becomes impossible to organize anything that is actually fun for everyone. Case in point: why work parties are so dry? Because in order to be inclusive, we boil down to the lowest common denominator.
A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.
I know bartenders who have a customer list that they never serve for various reasons. It’s easier to implement it in a neighbourhood level, as there’s an implied “we’re a part of the same group, so try to behave” understanding.
> Case in point: why work parties are so dry?
I get what you’re saying, but my work parties have been nothing but dry (and definitely, very far from dry) up until my current job. I just changed a few months ago though, and until I relocate, can’t really experience what they have to offer.
Agreed about the party hosting part though. It’s pretty tough to get some of my friend circles to do something together for the same reason. We can usually muster up for our big traditions though, which I think can be done in a local level too.
Ok but why would I go to places where I need to behave, if I can just drink at home instead, without needing to behave? I've been behaving the entire week already, give me a break.
I understand some people fun is to organise for other folk's fun, that's a generous motivation. But sometimes just behaving/organizing the way you likes it yourself makes other more confortable. Just tell them what food you'll prepare, if smoking inside/window is allowed and at what time you'll be ready. If they're grown up they'll manage to have fun by themselves, they come to see you not for your food.
I don't think this is anything new. Back one or two centuries ago there were clubs and societies for people having common interests, social classes and behaviors.
> A few days ago I organized a party for a few friends of mine, and even from organizational perspective it was a nightmare: this guy likes burgers while that guy is vegan. This guy wants to get wasted, that guy only smokes weed, while the other one needs to stay sober. This guy can come at 21:00 at earliest, while the other needs to leave at 22:00 at latest.
I think you overthink it. The one who organize is the one who decides. You define a place, people adapts or don't come. Simple as that.
In any group of friends or acquaintance, there are those that comes since the beginning, other who are always late, some who always leave early, some who are heavy smokers and spend all their time smoking outside, others who can't handle the smoke and stay inside and some who adapt and spend time in both area. Some people who always disappear for a while. In that group, some people barely spend time together. That is fine, you don't have to be the all of us together from start to finish.
I now live in suburb of Paris, there's probably more muslims that in the average French city (but they're still a strict minority) but no coffee place neither an alcool one and definitely not collective picnics at night.
Also I agree with everything parent said, we always go out, we even have trips with the 2-3 families and sometimes friends join as well.
Chess and Soccor are huge in Iran, you see kids running around in the street playing all the time and in the evening we have “parties” where people come to share food and then go out.
It’s very different from the West, I don’t even know what western nations would look like with that setup, it can get chaotic and there are many regulations that prevent these anyway like making noise outside after dark or kids being lowed to run in the streets with cars passing; not to mention the subtlies of not invading people’s personal spaces or coming off as a “creep” / annoying person here. In Iran no one cares and you just chat with anyone..
As a probably permanent expat with kids, I've been looking for some sort of more social and family oriented culture to raise them, and stuff like that sounds amazing. If we could just pick and choose the parts that each culture excels at!
Though with Alireza I was referring to Alireza Firouzja - a top 10 chess player in the world who also ended up in France like the earlier poster.
Can’t find Chez Amel, is it Chez Adel? Looks like an unpretentious casual and cosy bar, exactly my type thanks!
Financially, the secret to the old fraternal and veterans halls was that they were built when it was (relatively) cheap & easy to build in America. And their membership was dedicated enough to pay for that, then do most of the work of running the place.
These days...a few such place and organizations persist. But mostly, relentless capitalism has optimized away American's willingness to undertake any activity which fails to enrich Wall Street.
I would bet it is simply an emergent phenomenon of individual interests coalescing. Everyone wants commercial establishments near them, but not next to them.
Same as having lots of space for yourself, but also living near everything.
In a place with residential zoning you can't just build a pub without getting an exception to that zoning approved.
So many Americans living in residential suburban houses have to get in their car and drive 5-20 minutes to get to some sort of commercial center, strip mall, shopping area, etc. that has stores, bars, and restaurants.
There is starting to be a major pushback on this as people realize that having nice towns (not even necessarily cities) with dense mixed-use centers of walkable apartments, townhouses, shops, restaurants, bars, etc. is actually both pleasant and good for business. In the strict separate-zoning model you tend to get more chain establishments and fewer interesting local options because things are spread out and there isn't enough foot traffic in any given place to win over new business.
eg The Last Exit on Brooklyn (near Univ of Wash campus). Just show up. Very diverse clientele. All tables were open (no bogarting open seats). Cribbage, go, chess, boardgames, whatever. Mostly with strangers. There was also regular poetry slams, open-mic, music, whatever.
I've long wondered how to recreate such venues.
Places like Mox are great. https://www.moxboardinghouse.com/seattle/ I've been many times along with my son's crew (gamers, artists, slackers).
But the qwan is just a bit off.
Why?
Is it because we banned indoor smoking? People used to just hang out and smoke, taking in the vibe. (Gods, as a non-smoker, I loved cigs and espresso and cribbage and talking shit. Not that I'd ever want to allow indoor smoking again...)
Is it because places like Mox require merch sales to remain viable? Alcohol sales are way down, so venues need something.
Any way. As an old, if my local public library served espresso, I'd never leave. Our book club has tried to meet at libraries a few times, but it always sucks. Our libraries are definitely not "third places".
/ramble
From my previous experiences, that culture is still alive in parts of Europe, Hong Kong, Japan and so on. But it just doesn't work here...
My guess is the alcohol prices, as convincing yourself that paying $13 for a drink + tip, is not a good idea if you do it a couple of times a week. Ideally, you'd want people without money to be able to afford it as well, as they tend to be the "culture makers" because of the time and availability. Alas, it's hard to make that happen in current economy.
Oh well, we're stuck in this weird predicament, i guess.
I moved up here 6 months ago, and it's been a great group of people to hang out with. The conversations are tech/tech-adjacent for the most part, but I've also spent hours chatting about Magic The Gathering, Seattle Public Transit, and Neal Stephenson. I got my HushCon invite just from showing up regularly enough that people recognized me.
I actually found out about this because of another meetup on Thursdays: Black Lodge Research up in Redmond has an open night from 7:00 pm onwards. Great little makerspace, and a welcoming community. But it's definitely a schlep up there, especially after a workday so I haven't been back in a couple of months.
I'm not a big drinker, but it's nice to have a constant event on Thursday evenings that I can look forward to having a beer or two at (I actually have a custom drink that I came up with Will called "Pondwater" -- building up some lore like that is fun and is a sign of setting down some roots). I'd say Harry's is my "local bar" since I live about a 15 minute walk away. On the note of social drinking, there's a few sober people who come as well, and there's no compulsion at all to drink alcohol to be a part of the in-group. Hope I see you there sometime and I'd be happy to introduce you to the crowd; look for the Indian guy :)
That means you already aren’t lonely you just have a common spot in a pub with your friends - HIMYM vibes incoming.
You do. And the classical eponymous Stammtisch isn't really inviting to newcomers. I've spent time in German Wirtshäuser (but maybe it's more extreme in Bavaria) sitting at a table next to the Stammtisch alone but they would never invite you to their table.
It's just not how it works, at least in Bavaria. Usually the Stammtisch is an extremely tightly-knit group of locals that frown upon everything new. Somehow over many years you might earn your right to an invitation.
Also if you go to a Wirtshaus it is easy to spot the Stammtisch (the actual table - it always has a bell) and even if it is empty you may not just sit there without permission just like in some kind of religious ritual.
Of course everyone is free to use the term to their liking and you call a regular meeting in different locations a "Stammtisch" but that is not how it is traditionally.
The flag thing sounds like a very German thing to do. Maybe that's why German tourists are notorious for using towels to try to reserve chairs in tourist resorts the world over? Like draping a flag over a Stammstuhl.
Typing this I get a bit sad that these communities are missing nowadays and didn't really made it into modern life. Hitler used a lot of them for his purposes and after WWII it was just old people is what I think about them nowadays. It's too conservative and traditional for me.
Got a bit off track with the comment, but I was replying to the flag thingy. As a German it makes total sense.
Perhaps the Germans started it, but they are by no means the only nation doing this anymore. They may not even be leading in this discipline anymore. Over 20 years ago, I already observed English people reserving the best poolside loungers with towels before sunrise.