This is probably driven by the ongoing energy crisis and other economic factors. If we look at electricity use [0] in Germany we see the same old evidence can be seen accross the Western world. Germany is producing the lowest amount of electricity in 40 years. Last time I checked their $/kW was also awkwardly high.
If the amount electricity available is dropping, are people really going to be adding large new energy-hungry appliances like electric vehicles? I'd suggest not. Shutting off all the nuclear plants still looks pretty dumb, even in hindsight.
No. It's due to widespread anti US-American sentiment. There's been a
spate of vandalism of Tesla vehicles, scratching, daubing with
slogans, smashing windows and arson. Sad for those who bought an EV to
"help the planet" and are so cruelly judged by reactionary prejudice,
but these cars have become a symbol of something utterly rotten. I
know it's painful but perhaps you are underestimating how much
visceral hatred there is out there toward Elon Musk?
The photo montages certainly demonstrate that static images can be very easily taken out of context. The Musk salute can be shown as a video, in context and still be a nazi salute.
If you look at videos of the other poses, it is clear that they are not intended as any kind of salute.
It's insane that you keep repeating in lockstep what's been told to you. Like a Nazi apologist parrot, the line "taking gestures out of context. Have you seen the photo montages of left wing leaders being caught with the same pose?" is something I've read here, on reddit, on Instagram comments.
And yet you don't even seem to realise the bamboozle, you just repeat the messaging passed down to you.
Exhausting to have to deal with the torrent of bullshittery, you just want an excuse for the side you, for some reason, are identifying with. Because the reality that you might be supporting a proto-fascist state of affairs is too bad for your ego, you need to defend it to justify you aren't a bad person, so you just repeat in lockstep the bullshit excuse to feel better about yourself.
You are not on the good side of history, and unfortunately I don't think there's any way to show you that, you are entrenched and up to defend it... It's really sad to watch that happening, good luck on realising how bamboozled you've been.
> Because far left loonies jump on any bandwagon to label people far right. Even taking gestures out of context. Have you seen the photo montages of left wing leaders being caught with the same pose?
I pose to you the same question senator Murphy posed:
“Does it concern you that those elements of the neo-Nazi and white supremacist element in the United States believe that what they saw last night was a neo-Nazi salute?”
> [...] amid a consumer backlash against Elon Musk’s political activism and meddling in regional politics.
Hmm, not sure they can attribute the drop entirely to that. In the UK at least there's been a wave of Chinese brands launching (BYD, Omoda, GWM, etc.), fuel prices have fallen from the high in mid-2022[0], and EVs will soon start paying vehicle tax (£195/year, previously £0).
It's pretty clear that he did not do any sort of "fascist salute" but he is learning that in politics reality does not matter, only perception does and how often something is repeated so politicians are usually very careful...
Edit: "look exactly like" (reply below) is a QED to my point, really.
How is that clear? The videos that I have seen look exactly like a deliberate nazi salute and I have heard that far right groups (of which I have no contact) interpreted it as such and celebrated it.
In 40 years I have never, outside of documentations about the second world war and fictional movies in that area, seen this salute. It is 100% a Nazi salute, that starts by hitting the heart and then stretching the arm. Nothing else comes even close to this that could explain such a behavior. If you don't see it you are either very ignorant or plain ... .
Also meeting the AFD that is under investigation because of it's Nazi ideologies makes it clear that he has a very good understanding of what that salute means.
Election results across Europe and America have shown that accusing people of being "far right" or "Nazi", and to call them ignorant or stupid because they want other policies does not work and only increases polarisation.
It is much more productive and useful to try to understand people's concerns but it is also not as easy.
There being support for fascists does not mean fascists are not fascists. In US in particular, Republicans and conservatives were systematically given too much benefit of doubt.
Its very well known that if somebody says something extreme, such as radical views, they tend to assume other people who dont oppose them, agree with them. The only possibility is to take your stance and give contra.
Also it‘s a difference to be against immigration versus the open salutation and worshipping of a mass murderer millions of europeans and americans have died for to stop.
For me it’s disgusting that this tabu is now broken and everybody still tries to loudly ignore it!
> accusing people of being "far right" or "Nazi", and to call them ignorant or stupid because they want other policies does not work and only increases polarisation.
This is true but this is not what's happened here. The discussion is about whether Musk's gesture is a Nazi salute. OP called ignorant people who do not see it as such. They said nothing about those people's opinions and did not accuse them of being far right or Nazis themselves. In fact OP didn't even call Musk a nazi in their post. To conclude that it was their hidden intention to do so is a leap in logic that is not obvious.
Calling someone ignorant for not interpreting what Musk did in the most extremely politically orientated way is a cheap ad hominem attack but unsurprising in the current climate, as I pointed out. Bye.
Calling someone ignorant is indeed an ad-hominem, as is calling them Nazi or fascist (or, on the other side of the political spectrum, calling them woke or commie) unless they provably profess those opinions.
Given how tense the current political climate is, it's all the more important to avoid resorting in using fallacies. Name calling is one such trap, and misrepresenting one's opponent's arguments is another one.
A political guy made a gesture during public political event. The gesture looked like a well known political gesture. Is it really unfair to interpret that gesture in a political way?
The whole "it is wrong to observe peoples politics and behavior and call them what they are" thing was already absurd, this is really stretching it.
> It's pretty clear that he did not do any sort of "fascist salute"
O RLY
I guess this is basically our era's version of "point to a deer, call it a horse" (指鹿爲馬) [1]:
> Zhao Gao was contemplating treason but was afraid the other officials would not heed his commands, so he decided to test them first. He brought a deer and presented it to the Second Emperor but called it a horse. The Second Emperor laughed and said, "Is the chancellor perhaps mistaken, calling a deer a horse?" Then the emperor questioned those around him. Some remained silent, while some, hoping to ingratiate themselves with Zhao Gao, said it was a horse, and others said it was a deer. Zhao Gao secretly arranged for all those who said it was a deer to be brought before the law and had them executed instantly. Thereafter the officials were all terrified of Zhao Gao. Zhao Gao gained military power as a result of that.
Not sure if replies purposely ignore the point, thereby proving it, or if I am expressing it badly (Edit: OK, so it is indeed the former...)
If we want to use fancy proverbs to show our deep wisdom, I think the following French proverb is more apt to the situation: "If you want to kill your dog, accuse him of having rabies."
I don't think there's ever a good time for that. I'm saying it's not clear that their drop in sales is because of him, or competition, or other factors.
I see also a general loss of interest of the population towards EVs. The technology is kinda new, yet they already arrive enshittified from the factory. Who wants touch screen hot air controls?
Besides, range concerns and a lack of charge stations are another nail in the coffin for EVs in the EU.
Here in Germany, the somewhat paradox situation is that the right-wing party AfD has been pro-diesel and anti-ev for a long time, while it's usually the more progressive and/or left-leaning people who have been buying EVs.
But now that Musk has done something which looked very much like a Nazi salute on stage and also meddled in German politics by endorsing the AfD, nobody on the left wants to be seen in a Tesla anymore, while the right-wingers still prefer German diesel cars.
I was thinking the same looking at France's numbers. Who's more likely to buy a Tesla and who's more likely to hate Trump and Musk? (Also taking into account that some of France's very right wing politicians were invited at Trump's inauguration) Probably more overlap than Tesla would like... Especially now that you can buy something totally alien to this alleged ideology like a Volkswagen EV...
That's the risk when getting into politics while running a business.
50 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 112 ms ] threadEdit: this one is now flagged
If the amount electricity available is dropping, are people really going to be adding large new energy-hungry appliances like electric vehicles? I'd suggest not. Shutting off all the nuclear plants still looks pretty dumb, even in hindsight.
[0] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/electricity-prod-source-s...
> Tesla’s drop came as the German EV market in January grew more than 50 per cent year on year, pushing its market share down from 14 to 4 per cent.
So to answer your question, it seems like people don't mind buying new electric vehicles. They just have a problem with Tesla in particular.
"Tesla’s drop came as the German EV market in January grew more than 50 per cent year on year, pushing its market share down from 14 to 4 per cent."
If you look at videos of the other poses, it is clear that they are not intended as any kind of salute.
And yet you don't even seem to realise the bamboozle, you just repeat the messaging passed down to you.
Exhausting to have to deal with the torrent of bullshittery, you just want an excuse for the side you, for some reason, are identifying with. Because the reality that you might be supporting a proto-fascist state of affairs is too bad for your ego, you need to defend it to justify you aren't a bad person, so you just repeat in lockstep the bullshit excuse to feel better about yourself.
You are not on the good side of history, and unfortunately I don't think there's any way to show you that, you are entrenched and up to defend it... It's really sad to watch that happening, good luck on realising how bamboozled you've been.
Yes, I did.
Did you do any follow up on those claims?
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/musk-kamala-harris-salute/
Still images are different from video, and the guy did it twice.
What is more pressing to me is that it seems “far right loonies” also jumped on that “bandwagon”.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=50&v=F8Hy-ZQdGiQ
I pose to you the same question senator Murphy posed:
“Does it concern you that those elements of the neo-Nazi and white supremacist element in the United States believe that what they saw last night was a neo-Nazi salute?”
Wow.
Hmm, not sure they can attribute the drop entirely to that. In the UK at least there's been a wave of Chinese brands launching (BYD, Omoda, GWM, etc.), fuel prices have fallen from the high in mid-2022[0], and EVs will soon start paying vehicle tax (£195/year, previously £0).
[0] https://www.racfoundation.org/data/uk-pump-prices-over-time
When buyers have a lot of choice of EV, why will they choose to buy a swasticar?
Edit: "look exactly like" (reply below) is a QED to my point, really.
Also meeting the AFD that is under investigation because of it's Nazi ideologies makes it clear that he has a very good understanding of what that salute means.
It is much more productive and useful to try to understand people's concerns but it is also not as easy.
Also it‘s a difference to be against immigration versus the open salutation and worshipping of a mass murderer millions of europeans and americans have died for to stop.
For me it’s disgusting that this tabu is now broken and everybody still tries to loudly ignore it!
This is true but this is not what's happened here. The discussion is about whether Musk's gesture is a Nazi salute. OP called ignorant people who do not see it as such. They said nothing about those people's opinions and did not accuse them of being far right or Nazis themselves. In fact OP didn't even call Musk a nazi in their post. To conclude that it was their hidden intention to do so is a leap in logic that is not obvious.
Given how tense the current political climate is, it's all the more important to avoid resorting in using fallacies. Name calling is one such trap, and misrepresenting one's opponent's arguments is another one.
The whole "it is wrong to observe peoples politics and behavior and call them what they are" thing was already absurd, this is really stretching it.
https://www.thecanadianpressnews.ca/national/auschwitz-survi...
He lies constantly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42902603
They were and remain two full on fascist salutes. There's no minimizing it or explaining it away: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc
O RLY
I guess this is basically our era's version of "point to a deer, call it a horse" (指鹿爲馬) [1]:
> Zhao Gao was contemplating treason but was afraid the other officials would not heed his commands, so he decided to test them first. He brought a deer and presented it to the Second Emperor but called it a horse. The Second Emperor laughed and said, "Is the chancellor perhaps mistaken, calling a deer a horse?" Then the emperor questioned those around him. Some remained silent, while some, hoping to ingratiate themselves with Zhao Gao, said it was a horse, and others said it was a deer. Zhao Gao secretly arranged for all those who said it was a deer to be brought before the law and had them executed instantly. Thereafter the officials were all terrified of Zhao Gao. Zhao Gao gained military power as a result of that.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhao_Gao
If we want to use fancy proverbs to show our deep wisdom, I think the following French proverb is more apt to the situation: "If you want to kill your dog, accuse him of having rabies."
It's always best to see things as they are.
Hadn't realised this one had such a direct antecedent.
It couldn't be more clear to me that's exactly what he did. More than once. I saw it with my own eyes.
What difference do you see between them?
[1] https://x.com/BartoSitek/status/1882081868423860315?t=8F0hL-...
Besides, range concerns and a lack of charge stations are another nail in the coffin for EVs in the EU.
But now that Musk has done something which looked very much like a Nazi salute on stage and also meddled in German politics by endorsing the AfD, nobody on the left wants to be seen in a Tesla anymore, while the right-wingers still prefer German diesel cars.
That's the risk when getting into politics while running a business.
To start with, ensure that you're using well configured ssl certs and redirect to https