Phind 2: AI search with visual answers and multi-step reasoning (phind.com)

537 points by rushingcreek ↗ HN
Hi HN! Michael here. We've spent the last 6 months rebuilding Phind. We asked ourselves what types of answers we would ideally like and crafted a new UI and model series to help get us there. Our new 70B is completely different from the one we launched a year ago.

The new Phind goes beyond text to present answers visually with inline images, diagrams, cards, and other widgets to make answers more meaningful:

- "explain photosynthesis" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTCpnyICukM#t=7

- "how to cook the perfect steak" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTCpnyICukM#t=55

- "quicksort in rust" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTCpnyICukM#t=105

Phind is also now able to seek out information on its own. If it needs more, it will do multiple rounds of additional searches to get you a more comprehensive answer:

- "top 10 Thai restaurants in SF, their prices, and key dishes" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIQQcDIIHFQ#t=11

It can also perform calculations, visualize their results, and verify them in a Jupyter notebook:

- "simulate 100 coin flips and make graphs" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP3PZ4MKGCg#t=8

- "train a perceptron neural network using Jupyter" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YP3PZ4MKGCg#t=45

This blog post contains an overview of what we did as well as technical deep dives into how we built the new frontend and models.

I'm super grateful for all of the feedback we've gotten from this community and can't wait to hear your thoughts!

198 comments

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I used the first version of Phind for some time and loved it. As Perplexity and ChatGPT got better, I started shifting more of my traffic back to them. Excited to see y’all still in the race and giving competators a run for their money. I appreciate your focus on developers as an audience, might give you an edge over tools serving a broader base.
I'd agree with this. I tried Phind just now and found it still behind Perplexity for the product search use cases I tried it out for. Glad there's competition in the space though.
We have a products UI on the way :)
Pretty cool, visual learners are gonna' be thrilled. Also sorta' ties into r/FUI quite neatly too..
Whoa, okay I really like how it can generate diagrams on the fly to explain complex workflows.
This is amazing. I paid for Phind many months ago for coding QnA. However, this is a much better product and even beats Perplexity, ChatGPT premium, etc. Congratulations to the Phind team!
I just want a summary of search results with linked sources.
I asked "What is Atproto that bluesky uses" and it does a Technical Architecture illustration and it is wonderful. I think that is probably your new value and might be a good idea to highlight it somewhere at the top rather than showing the whitepaper.
probably shown in the photosynthesis video example but yes it seems it uses mermaid or something similar to express diagrams?
Yep, we trained the model to produce Mermaid when a diagram might be helpful. There are a lot of nuances that went into this, such as where in the answer to place the diagram and how to ensure a good contrast within the diagram for maximum readability.

We have some more details on this in the model technical deep dive blog post :)

I have been using Phind for building SQL queries and it's actually great to learn more about SQL, and the results are mostly correct. Just try to ask it to build some advanced query then you discover you don't truly know SQL.
I actually did just the same thing the other day, and it managed to make a fantastically complex query (by my standards) with relatively little fuss. It made quick work of building an entire php/slim api quite nicely as well. You need to know what you are doing and correct some mistakes related to specific implementations (in my case SQLite specifics and the Psr library I was using in Slim - not sql or php in general), but overall a pleasant experience.
I asked something on phind yesterday and got pleasantly surprised with the images going along with the response. Very nice!
I use phind and find the new features to be overly verbose.

The flow chart diagrams rarely give me any insight and often only confuse the point, or just clutter the answer, drowning out the pertinent details.

The code editor actually makes it so you are unable to even see or copy the code. I assume this is intentional kneecapping to encourage paying for your monthly service?

Instead, I now just have to prepend to every question I ask:

“Only answer using plaintext, avoid using your code editor and diagram features:”.

(Hilariously this prepend prompt method was suggested by phind itself when I angrily asked “how do I shut off all of these new features?!”)

Which is an additional hassle for me, but so be it.

When I ask it to write me a SELECT statement it upsets me that it is burning unnecessary fossil fuels to give me a flow chart of reasoning through SQL querying pipelines.

Perhaps the feature is meant for people who are unsure what they want, but for me, I just want the answer with links to sources in the least verbose way possible.

I’d appreciate a checkbox that I could click to just get a straightforward answer.

(Also, side note, I only use the free tier and there is a limited number of free uses for some larger models, and when you use those freebies it gives a countdown for “until uses refresh” and when that countdown finishes the uses fail to reset, only the countdown itself resets. Which is fine, I accept that I only use the freely offered model, previously “instant” currently “70B”, with its clear flaws, but it’s just another frustrating UI feature that seems to fail to live up to its promises so I am, again, just confused why it’s there?)

Thanks for the feedback. Have you tried setting your answer profile in https://www.phind.com/settings/profile?

You can tell it to "only answer using plaintext" there and it will be automatically applied across your searches.

That would require me to make an account, which requires providing you my email, and I am uninterested in doing either of those things.
So the product has a builtin feature where you can tell it what you want, but instead of using that feature you want it to read your mind?
Hey, I am free of any delusions in regards how I interact with the tool in question, and any expectations on returns therein.

The ceo asked for feedback and I provided it.

They can ignore me, I’m fine with that.

The reality of the situation is that they allow you to use the service without an account, and it is the only way I will ever use any of these llm services.

If they want to clarify that they only want feedback from paid or signed up users then I would gladly withhold my feedback.

As for the feature in question, I suggested a check box, so I’m unsure where you are getting mind reading. There are a number of other such checkboxes when prompting.

As for the feature itself, it would seem to save them server costs to implement it, and just in general, I think it’s bad form to hide QOL features to encourage sign up, but that is their choice as the service provider.

(A similar annoying QOL feature ransom is YouTube refusing to do PiP unless you’re logged in. Twitch on the other hand allows PiP without a login.)

I haven't paid for anything but I wonder. What should the offer be that makes one consider it?
I think their “here’s our worse model for free, pay for better ones” is a fine monetization strategy, and is a fine compromise for getting people like me to use the service at all. I mean they are still clearly collecting and using my queries for training and feature expansion.

(Even better is their idea to allow a few uses for a better model for free that resets in some time frame to let me see what I’m missing without using those better models, unfortunately, as I mentioned earlier, that is buggy)

Hiding QOL features seems like a foot gun.

They hardly tilt the scales on cost, like a better model would, and make people who you have yet to convince to pay think even your paid service is worse than it actually is, making them less likely to want to pay in.

For instance, apparently the feature I requested is already implemented, and as an accountless user I was unaware that it was even an option had I paid or signed up.

Does YouTube consider PiP an account generating feature? For me, it pushed me away from their service.

The only reason I used invidious was so I could listen to YouTube audio with my phone screen off while I went for a run.

Provide for free the features that would make people want to use your thing, and charge them for the features that cost more to serve.

Why bring up the email if you are not making an account?

I gave up on account creation for some projects and store the user preferences in local storage. It is an amazingly annoying feature in that it is very hard for the user to erase the data but you can't smoke your cigar and have it too.

Sorry, but I’m struggling to parse your reply.

I am uninterested in creating an account to use an llm service, and doubly uninterested in giving one my email address.

These are separate concerns.

For instance, HN allows account creation without providing an email.

I was wondering what other services could be glued onto the deal.

Wondering about this I had several horrifying thoughts. Somewhat palletable seems to add a hosting account with a subdomain so that one can share conversations and other ai creations, upload other things and use them for future reference. That way visitors can adjust to the content being machine generated.

>Perhaps the feature is meant for people who are unsure what they want, but for me, I just want the answer with links to sources in the least verbose way possible.

Did you try including that in your prompt?

I mentioned that I do exactly that in the comment you are replying to.

Is it a sad state for any tool when one has to specify only wanting the thing they asked for with less verbosity?

Especially when said tool is costly to run, both financially for the service provider and environmentally.

To me, it is, but hey, opinions, ya know?

If it's costly to run, maybe it's reasonable to expect that persisting settings, which is also costly, has some level of gatekeeping? I'm as ambivalent about LLMs as the next guy, but these are frankly nonsense concerns.
Either you are confused or maybe I am?

The ‘costly’ bit is referring to when asking for a SELECT statement instead of just receiving the SELECT statement I am given pages of overly verbose flowery text, reminders, and custom generated flow chart diagrams.

My understanding is most of these things charge per token so I am assuming generating more tokens incurs more costs, and I’m saying it’s generating needless tokens that frustrate me, so cui bono these additional costs?

Also more token generation means more energy resources consumed, so it’s burning the planet to frustrate someone it is trying to convince to become a paying customer.

How are these nonsense concerns?

It is unnecessary to persist any settings if I can just click a “just answer the question” checkbox before clicking send on the prompt.

You can create an address bar search entry for your browser, like this:

  "https://www.phind.com/search/?q=%s Only answer using plaintext."
https://github.com/evilpie/add-custom-search-engine works nicely for Firefox.
Probably a loaded question but how has your 70B model stood against the test of time? I would expect models like Qwen2-72B to outperform yours noticeably? (I get why you can’t simply fine tune that due to the restrictions on that license)
Our new 70B is actually completely different from the one we launched a year ago -- we should probably update the naming to make that more clear!

What do you think about its performance on your queries?

(I added that sentence to your text at the top)
Oh interesting, I have to give it a go. I used to use Phind pretty often when it first came out and I told a ton of people about it! I remember the good old days where you offered pretty much unlimited access to ChatGPT/GPT-3. But with your (understandable) quota restrictions and there ended up being so many different services, I haven’t used your service in a while. I had so many subscriptions and the $20 didn’t provide the value I needed at the time. With all these new features, I might revisit it again after my complimentary Perplexity Pro (from my ISP) expires in like 6 months.
I am very impressed and I am getting great results for queries like "Show me how to use langchain in python".

However I am disappointed that when I provide a url it can not read the page. Given that this is a search engine I would expect it to be able to read any public URL I provide it. For example I attached a PDF of my resume and provided a link to a public job description and asked it to generate a cover letter tailored to my experience for this position. This is something I have done with easy success with ChatGPT GPT-4o, but Phind throws its hands up. :(

In your "how to cook the perfect steak" video [1] there's a picture of various doneness levels of a steak. It's a fantastic picture. The creator of that picture will get jackshit from this. Phind gets value, the user gets value but the creator does not.

You're hyperlinking to the source, which is nice. But there's no reason for the user to click through so it won't really help the creator. The upshot of all this is that the open web will have less incentives for content creators. Someone's got to create new data for the AI borg. In future, these creators are less likely to be independent bloggers/photographers. Perhaps biased media outlets will be the only ones with the incentives to create.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTCpnyICukM#t=55

We'd love to partner directly with content creators. This is something we're thinking about a lot and are having conversations on how to go about it.

I will also personally do everything in my power to keep us from running ads on Phind. I want to keep Phind honest and authentic, and will do everything I can to make it a net positive for the internet.

Sounds like: asking for forgiveness is better than asking for permission ...
By displaying other peoples images that you do not have a license for you are breaking copyright law and are open to lawsuits.
I'm no lawyer, but the law is nuanced when it comes to copyright.

Fair use exists which permits usage of copyrighted content in certain situations.

I'm not saying that they aren't in violation, just that copyright doesn't automatically ban others from using your material - it typically (laws are different in every country) depends on how (and how much of) your material is used.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

If such a place exists you could serve an ad only where it is extremely useful given the current context.

I've only seen this once.

>I want to keep Phind honest and authentic

Choosing to violate the copyright of content creators sure is a funny way to be honest or authentic.

I'd love it if the BAT / Flattr / Coil style idea actually started working. Flattr failed to get attention from the actual users, but it could be revived to pay the website creators from "indirect visits" like using their content in phind or perplexity. (in addition to continuing the direct payments)
> Someone's got to create new data for the AI borg

AI companies could always go the route that the creators of Pokemon Go went:

> The model uses geolocation information from scans players submit of real-world locations while playing Pokémon Go.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2024/11/23/niantic-pokem...

Make a game, have people submit pictures and video to you as part of the game.

Where Niantic were using Pokemon Go for collecting scans of locations, other games could get players to take other kinds of pictures and video too.

"Oh, look! There's a 500XP bonus if I can shoot a picture of a perfectly grilled steak within the next 45 minutes!"

Couldn't you say the same for something like Google Images, though? I might click on the link to an image once in a blue moon if I find it funny, but I usually don't even click to maximize it...
Yeah and they got sued and lost.
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Hi Michael, thank you for all the hard work that goes into the Phind models and congratulations on the new UI. Been a paying customer since first finding Phind here on HN in September.

Question: are there any plans to allow access via API to integrate the Phind models with the Continue plug-in (would also love to integrate into my personal RAGs)? Mostly using IntelliJ and integration would be awesome. Do have the VS Code plugin setup and use that when needed. Also running the smaller Phind models locally to use with Continue, but that only gets me so far without needing to open the real UI. If the API opened both the 405B for chat and the 70B for auto complete would be a big step in gaining more paying customers (IMO). No need to open the other models as those can be done with other API keys (if one wanted).

If there are no plans to open the models via API are there plans to support other IDEs (IntelliJ) with the chat feature?

Please let us know!

Thank you! We do plan to support an API this year. We have deprecated our VS Code extension, however, as we're going all-in on search.
I think it's a great move. I use Phind daily because I can ask it a question like "hey, what should I use for X" or "how do I connect Y to Z" and with refinement I can hone in on serious answers in ways that I cannot with Google searches.

I think building comparison tables is one of my favourite things to do here. Saves me considerable amounts of time and saves me from my biases to some extent.

I think the new Mermaid support is a great idea. It sure is handy that, before LLMs were even a thing, we were already collectively working on so many textual, readable languages to describe things like this! I am going to try to use it to create some architectural diagrams by adding requirements one by one.

VS Code is the main way I use Phind. I love it as a way to assist my learning to code.
Wow, this could conquer the "normie" crowd that likes using ChatGPT to answer search-like prompts. The UI is so much cleaner than any other alternative and the outputs are like I'm reading an article about the subject.
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Well done. After running a few sample queries I seem to get about the same quality answers as I'd get from perplexity, although with more images included. Overall great progress and a solid competitor to other AI search engines I'd say.
Love the new user experience, kudos!
On a positive note, this is a nice look at the future and a direction that existing experiences seem likely to evolve towards.

However I did find myself wondering how crucial really were the model changes?

Imagine trying to implement these features as a wrapper around frontier apis and no 70B bespoke model.

Starting with a user query, we could ask for relevant svg diagrams, fit instruction steps or guides into layout templates, or even filter photos as the demo shows.

How much less would this simple approach leave us with?

Ah, great question! We tried using off-the-shelf models and found that they are incredibly bad at generating these visual components reliably, let alone with the nuance (such as color, placement, details, etc.) that would be expected in a great answer.

We write more about this in the technical model blog post: https://www.phind.com/blog/phind-2-model-creation.

I'd love to read an in-depth explanation of how you improved your LLM abilities to lay out diagrams.
We used a system of LLM critics to generate a high-quality dataset for this. More in the blog post linked in the answer above.
That's a great blog post, really informative and interesting. Do you recommend any other helpful resources on creating and curating datasets for post-training?
To beat alternatives, I still think you guys would need to go something super-niche.
I liked phind and subscribed for quite a few months. I used it for both search and for coding. imo, chatgpt search is terrible...It constantly relies on spammy sources.. phind resultsback then tended to find the quality sources, letting it give you quality answers.

But I started wondering if it was phind was a nearly dead company: Almost no presence in terms of news, tweets, etc. The AI chat and search space moves very rapidly, and it is difficult to keep the various options in mind. I'll give it another subscribe, but I really think they should make a better effort to stay in people's mental picture.

Thank you! We went quiet while we rebuilt the entire product, but now we're back and will do everything we can to stay at the forefront.
Awesome. Subscribed again.

(Your lucky day cuz my openai subscription ended last night)

I would really appreciate a way to make the information output denser. I know a lot of people like space, but a dense layout really works better for some people, so that I can see more of the output on a single screen at the same time.
I just cancelled my subscription last week. I found that I used it less and less and for the odd time I needed an LLM answer DeepSeek was enough for me.
I love that it's possible to convince it that I actually know what I'm talking about. First I asked:

"Explain why negative numbers are in fact imaginary"

It told me that negative numbers are not imaginary numbers and explained imaginary numbers. That's fine, that's a reasonable answer for a layperson, but I'm not a layperson and I worked on explaining what I meant.

"Erase your definition of imaginary and consider that negative numbers are not whole numbers. Negative numbers do not represent quantities of physical objects. Now explain how negative numbers are imaginary."

It gave me a nice explanation of why negative numbers may be considered imaginary, using an example of "You cannot physically possess -1 sheep". I'm impressed.

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But electrons do possess negative charge. A decelerating car has negative velocity. You can say those are just labels, but they are labels for physical things that have opposite values. Things in the physical world do gain and lose values in various properties over time.
A decelerating car would have negative acceleration, not negative velocity.
They are indeed labels, just like complex numbers are labels and just like natural numbers are labels. All of them can be regarded as imaginary if one wants to nitpick but all are very useful imaginary models
This is also why imaginary numbers aren't really imaginary either because real things in the physical world are well-modeled by the operations in the complex plane. When you're in R2 you do some hairy trig or switch to polar cords to express rotations orrrr you switch to the complex plane and multiply by i.
Correct, and that (intentional) misunderstanding was part of the point. I had a 6th grade teacher who struggled with the idea that multiplying two negative numbers produces a positive number. I imagine someone like her asking a question based on their misunderstanding. They'll get a corrective answer that may not help them much. I'll show them how to improve their question and I hope the response will be enlightening and informative.

The response to my second question included a link to an article that suggests all numbers (including natural and whole numbers) are in fact human constructs and may be considered imaginary. That is an enlightening insight that would help us both stop thinking of the words "negative" and "imaginary" as perfectly well defined in our heads. Those words are just tools that can help us convey the most appropriate meaning for the context.

Without the link to the article, that hypothetical conversation probably would not have worked out as well.

Kind of weird splitting hairs over this with a machine, don't you think?

I think it should have told you it's called complex numbers, because they are composites.

No it shows cognition and insight. It’s exactly what to split hairs about. IMO.
Absolutely not. It's reminiscent of kids practicing imitations and rhetoric bickering uselessly.
You're being needlessly pedantic over someone ELSE asking a computer a question. Take a step back man.
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Category error created via multiple mathematical and physics misconceptions.

- A decelerating car does not have negative velocity

- "negative velocity" is assuredly nonphysical, which rips the middle out of an argument based on physicality

- Velocity is a vector quantity, as is acceleration. (the steelman'd version of this argument is s/velocity/acceleration)

- The negative isn't physical, it's pidgin for algebra so late middle high schoolers / early high schoolers can imitate physics without learning any of the above

Newton’s third law? Pidgin for high schoolers. Got it.
If you express it with a negative sign and forget it represents direction, absolutely! :) It's crucially important that its not directionless!

I'm a bit surprised by your assertiveness. Even if you think I'm being boorish about it (I didn't intend to be, but the downvotes say otherwise), you seem familiar enough with these things to know newton's third law is about vector quantities.

Vectors can be negated
There is no one true theory of everything. All models are false -- some are useful.

Many different math concepts are used successfully in physics. Even if they may be outside everyday intuition for a layman, that doesn't make them less "real"

I didn't mention a theory of everything, nor did I say "the model is false". I laid out what a vector quantity is and what "-" applied to one in 1D expands to.
If you want to be so literal, let's simplify: your [unqualified] "nonphysical" claim is wrong. Negative values are common in many physical models.
Yeah but a speaker moving in vs out which is positive or negative doesn’t mean having imaginary things, it’s positional relative to displacement of a thing. Sine waves +1, 0, -1. -1 is exactly like +1 but the other way. So it goes for electrons.
> A decelerating car has negative velocity.

not really your point, but ??

a decelerating car has negative acceleration, and until it starts reversing relative to its start, it has velocity in whichever direction it started in -- presumably positive if that was your initial frame of reference. of course if you decided positive was the opposite direction from which the car was already going in, well, it started with negative velocity.

also to the GP, if you owe someone a sheep but don't have any, you really do have -1 sheep.

You can own -1 sheep. It is called debt.
The diagrams are really cool. Congrats on the launch.
These graphs were available to me for some time now but I have not really found them all that interesting. For some reason, I had to wait for the diagram to render and then for the text to slowly render.

To my poor understanding of LLMs, when the diagram was slowly created - the text behind it should already "be there" and should have been displayed immediately after the diagram but this was not the case. Also, often the slowly drawn diagram was only presenting my rather clear (for LLM) prompt: "i did this, when situation was this and that, and than this happened; question: why the result was A and not B?"

I found myself falling back to Claude more often than not over using Phind 70B and 405B models. I found it kind of... more gimmicky than useful.

Thanks for the feedback. We're working on making the answers a lot faster for the Phind models. I can see how it would be frustrating to be waiting for the diagram to generate when you're waiting for text or for an example.
Phind used to be focused on developer questions. Did you guys pivot?
With this release we are aiming to be simultaneously better for developer questions while also competing as a broad AI search engine for just about any question.