113 comments

[ 4.5 ms ] story [ 112 ms ] thread
>The employees refused their requests, and called San Francisco sheriff’s deputies

The LARP scene has gotten out of hand.

As documented by the Flattened Earth in The Glorious LARP.
The LARP scene has gotten out of hand.

When I lived in Seattle there were people who would listen to the police scanner and then rush to the scenes of traffic accidents and fires and such dressed up as "superheroes" and LARP saving the day.

I suspect they got in the way more than they helped.

Ham radio, particularly some of the ARES / SKYWARN / RACES / MARS folks (tons of overlap within those), go real overboard thinking they’re trying to help in emergencies or actively put themselves into dangerous situations and end up just being more people who need actual rescue.
I know "laws are useless without enforcement" but I'll ask anyway:

How legal (or what's the process) for a federal entity to demand state records? Some of Trunps's big plans rely on "State's rights" as a backbone for their rationale, so I'm curious on how far those rights really go in face of federal.

For a random agent of the federal government to show up who has no connection or agreement with the local city entity and demand records?

They would have NO legal standing to make demands.

GOP rhetoric is almost always opposite of what you might expect "states rights" is just a phrase to the GOP, they mean "states can do what they like as long it is what we want" otherwise they do not care about states rights.

Having said that as far as the example goes, I suspect DOGE is busy with the federal government. DOJ though, they have options as far investigating things go, and other departments have deals with state and municipal agencies that give them leverage to make some requests for information, but they don't provide the "anything goes" kind of access that DOGE is reported to have at the federal level. Every agency that would have some leverage, it would be dependent on specific circumstances, agreements, and courts (assuming this administration cares what they say) have historically protected the state's rights to do their thing.

Tangentially, "fighting for states' rights" is a common falsehood told by apologists for the Confederacy in the US civil war.

Not only did the slave states try to force other states to tolerate slavery within their own borders, but the biggest changes in the Confederacy's constitution was how it permanently removed rights from its member-states.

in general (and as far as I know in the US): you need a court order
Depends. Various things require cooperation with the federal government. For example there are various laws that require specific types of records or data to be shared. Various types of federal funding can come with those requirements. Or there can be criminal investigations that result in records being requested. But someone randomly showing up sound illegitimate, and as the article notes, these weren’t people associated with the administration it appears.
Born in the Netherlands with stories by my parents on the Nazi growth and eventually occupation, I sincerely hope that history won't repeat itself. I wish you all the best but fear the worst.
Getting tired of the hysterics.

If you think Nazi is a remotely valid way to describe what’s going on then you’re probably spending too much time online surrounded by catastropists, and have lost touch with reality.

Trump is stacking the federal government with loyalist and preparing to outright ignore court orders(if they are not doing so already) and become a monarchy while billionaires chop up the government for fun and profit. If you don't see this then you have lost touch with reality. Democracy is on life support and Elon's fans are putting fingers in their ears acting like this isn't happening.
You don’t realise how ridiculous you sound to normal people because you spend your time in an echo chamber full of left-wing conspiracy theories.

The government will get a bit smaller and life will go on.

I'm curious. What needs to happen for you realize what is going on? What is the action that if taken you'll see things for what they are?
What I want to understand is how much smaller will it be, and why are they targeting what they are at the moment? The administrations they've cut back only make up fractions of a percent of the overall spending, and make virtually no difference for the average person. One of them actually put more money back into the pockets of taxpayers than it cost them, and seems to have made no sense to discard. Why not target major cost centres?
They also stopped $489 million of food aid to leave it to rot, which it has. That level of waste is not aligned with their mission statement to reduce waste. So the statement can't be trusted.
Even taking that unsourced statement as true, a single anecdotal accident doesn't invalidate an entire mission statement.
Sorry for not citing current mainstream headline news (I guess Fox is not airing this though) https://www.yahoo.com/news/usaid-inspector-fired-revealing-n...

If you are ignorant to widely-reported news, it's curious to dismiss it as anecdotal.

It's also curious to paint this an accident (before you knew anything about it) when it's the intended result of the order and an inspector was fired for attempting to raise effort to correct it.

Everything Elon claims is unsourced and often completely wrong but his followers seem to have no problem taking it at face value
The philosophy behind what they're doing comes from Curtis Yarvin. JD Vance is a fan.

Yarvin believes American democracy is a failed project and it should be replaced with an American monarchy. He thinks all of society should be organized like a corporation and a CEO of America should call the shots, no elections necessary:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Yarvin

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/23373795/curtis-yarv...

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2022/04/inside-the-new-right...

They've been thinking about it for years, including preparing themselves to ignore court rulings.

To quote JD Vance from the Vanity Fair article: “I think Trump is going to run again in 2024,” [Vance] said. “I think that what Trump should do, if I was giving him one piece of advice: Fire every single midlevel bureaucrat, every civil servant in the administrative state, replace them with our people.” “And when the courts stop you,” he went on, “stand before the country, and say—” he quoted Andrew Jackson, giving a challenge to the entire constitutional order—“the chief justice has made his ruling. Now let him enforce it.”

And now he's saying it as vice president:

https://www.newsweek.com/jd-vance-comment-questioning-court-...

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/02/trump-v...

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/09/us/politics/vance-trump-f...

What remains to be seen is how far they will push it:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/02/doge-civil...

(comment deleted)
> and preparing to outright ignore court orders

Trump literally said in a press conference about DOGE a few days ago that he will follow all court orders, but also appeal them where he thinks they’re wrong. This claim that he is ignoring courts is false, and increasingly I am noticing journalists factually misrepresent reality to create widespread beliefs like this.

> Trump literally said in a press conference about DOGE a few days ago that he will follow all court order

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/02/10/us/trump-unfreezing-feder...

The judges issuing said orders disagree. Saying a thing is not the same as doing a thing.

A judge who is a major donor to Democrats, appointed by a Democrat president, has determined that. He could be correct, or he could just be an activist. Let’s see how it plays out. But the administration has said publicly that they will follow judicial rulings in response to a direct question about these rulings.
Trump is a liar. Starting a sentence with "Trump said" means nothing.
For anyone who thinks the comparisons to monarchy are an overreaction look up favorite philosopher of Peter Thiel and JD Vance Curtis Yarvin. He quite explicitly calls for a “CEO king” to fire all federal employees and replace them with loyalists.
The coup started 4 years ago. It's just continuing. Now with immunity almost guaranteed by the supreme court.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely and we are just getting started. The checks and balance that get in the way are actively being dismantled.

It's game over. I'm not going to say comply in advance. There should be a fight but it's very bleak.
So, basically just unfounded conspiracy theories.
A conspiracy theory would be claiming something vaguely defined but sinister is going on in secret and that absence of evidence is evidence.

(e.g. 9/11 or Sandy Hook being false flags, Pizzagate, Qanon, the "deep state").

What most people are talking about now is resemblances between actual actions and events that aren't in dispute and things that have happened in countries generally recognized as autocratic.

(e.g. the fake electors plot isn't a conspiracy theory, we know it happened; presidential immunity isn't a conspiracy theory, it is a Supreme Court ruling; pardoning people that attacked the Capitol isn't a conspiracy theory, it's an actual Executive Order; rewriting term limits isn't a conspiracy theory, it's an actual bill, etc.)

Reasonable people can disagree on the extrapolation of current events into the future without either being a conspiracy theorist.

There’s always someone standing around watching the book burning or purge telling everyone that they’re overreacting. Like clockwork.
[flagged]
Maybe he read history books in school like the rest of us.
Then he would know better than to be so hysterical
You don't think the literal nazi salute elon gave at a rally, twice, warrants any comparisons? Or that the administration flirts with annexing Canada, Greenland, and Palestine? Or that their support is driven through prejudice against migrants?

Ok.

The reopening of Guantanamo Bay as a concentration camp, at a cost of over $1 Billion, while elon musk's minion yank money from farmers and poor Alabamans $100 and $80,000 at a time, while tauting their own success on fox news...
> You don't think the literal nazi salute elon gave at a rally, twice, warrants any comparisons?

Honestly? I was on team "he's a clueless weirdo" and was mostly amused by watching his supporters cortort themselves to avoid saying that... But he somehow managed to fish out and hire not one but two engineers with a history of blatant racism, and even decided to rehire the one that resigned once it became public.

I generally think the whole "Nazi" thing is easy and reductive, but what the fuck?

[flagged]
> I don't think Elon gave a Nazi salute

He gave two fascist salutes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smQNNo2a9xc

> I think that comparison is based on superficial mechanistic similarities

It looks exactly the same. These guys think so: https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/elon-mus...

This guy too: https://www.reddit.com/r/facepalm/comments/1i68puj/have_we_l...

Sometimes things are exactly as they appear to be.

[flagged]
Those similar gestures are people waving. Most of them aren't even clips, but still shots of the wave when the hand was extended forward. It is really disingenuous to compare them.

It is disappointing that we are pretending someone with the responsibility Musk carries couldn't foresee what his own body movements portray. He was at best trolling, and that is a pretty shitty thing to troll with.

There's no point getting into a discussion with someone who refuses to admit the sky is blue. You know what you saw.

The difficulty with arguing against someone who doesn't care about their beliefs matching up with reality is that you have to rely on factual arguments while they do not.

> You can find clips of many politicians doing similar gestures.

Really?

Since Musk made his two salutes all I've seen in response have been highly selective still photos taken at low angles that make it appear Obama, Harris, etc. have been making Nazi salutes.

I've yet to see a dynamic unfaked video lengthy video clip of, say, Joe Biden, throwing a Nazi salute.

Do you have such a clip with details of the time and place, hosted by a major media outlet?

Of course they don't - they're referring to those still photos you've seen already which look nothing like a fascist salute in their original videos
Have you tried looking up videos from Germany in the 1930s? There r plenty of politicians and even normal citizens giving the same salute.
He gave the salute. Your attempt to re-write reality will not work.
> He gave the salute

Twice!

"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." (George Orwell, 1984)

"The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." (George Orwell, 1984)
Don't forget opening camps for undesireables or ending recognition of trans people.
And referring to people receiving welfare as "parasites."
From here in Canada it doesn't appear alarmist at all. If this was occurring in our country I would be deeply scared.
You should still be scared. Trump wants to "annex" Canada as the 51st state. ;)
You actually think Trump is going to forcibly capture land from Canada?

Zero chance that happens.

Every single man I know is fully committed to fight an invasion if it came to it, and most of us have aggressively cut back spending in American companies and tourism wherever possible. If the people I know are a decent representation of the country, it’ll be absolutely miserable for Trump to make an inch of progress on this without substantial losses.
A fantasy response to a strawman threat.
Better safe than sorry. Any threat to our economy, let alone sovereignty, is something I’ll take seriously.
you don't need to do any of that. you just have to say you'll be happy to join with immediate representation with the same rules as the other states. No GOP are going to be happy voting to absorb a new state who think the Dems are slightly to the right.
Trump is pretty erratic. I would say that it's improbable but not a zero chance.
God, no! I don't believe that for a moment! Hahahaha! He's maybe crazy enough to try but he'd be shut down instantly by much smarter people than him who'd for sure refuse to follow that stupid an order. ;)
What is your experience with history? Have you read much since high school? What is your experience in shaping your government? How many times a year do you communicate with your representatives?

I ask because a person not used to expending energy doing those things could quickly and easily get "tired" and believe the present situation to be "hysterics, " while those who are politcally aware - as opposed to those newly being told all of their xenophobic urges are wonderful - are rightfully alarmed.

I recommend you read _Defying_Hitler_ to see how authoritarianism creeps in. You might also get to know the recent history of Hungary, Turkey, Belarus, Myanmar, Venezuela, Poland, Macedonia, and Thailand.

That Vivek dude was kicked out of DOGE solely because literal Nazis on Xitter didn't like him.
That seems likely from my point of view, but is there evidence that that is what happened?
Given this forum is generally serious and populated with generally serious people, it’s worthwhile to consider that there may be some context you are missing rather than dismissing them as “lefty nutbags”. Smoke/fire/etc. This cuts both ways, and there’s a productive way to help us understand why you think this its ridiculous for lots of “the smart people” to be really really really worried.
(comment deleted)
Its worth a look at what actually happened during the rise of the third reich. People aren't just making the comparisons to be hyperbolic. I know a bit of it from reading the beginning of William L. Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich".

The power shift in the Republican party has strong parallels to shifts in power that lead to compromises with the NSDAP, and eventually to Hitler's chancellorship.

The moves away from old institution norms (by both parties, though I tend to bias against R) who claim they are fighting to preserve it, whether with good intentions or not, have the effect of eroding our democracy.

The Trump admin's denigration of immigrants, and gender ideology also have obvious parallels.

For a time I didn't consider there to be genocidal parallels, but the recent threats to empty Gaza puts that on shaky ground.

Until these trends start reversing, and the groups involved work to restore norms, we are at an increasing risk of repeating past government's failures. For one party that feels like the intent (see recent chaos monkey efforts), while at least the other recognizes they are eroding norms, but can't seem to reverse course (Biden's executive orders).

(comment deleted)
I've read a fair amount of history (half my family is from germany, and the other half, jews who escaped in time) and what's happening now is remarkably similar to what happened in the lead-up to WWII, historically speaking.

We're not being hysterical, we're being realistic. Trump is mostly a buffoon but Miller, Musk, and Vance are all truly evil people (I don't say this lightly) whose vision for America is truly terrifying. Like, Handmaid's Tale wasn't speculative fiction, but a working manual for these guys.

what you missing is that it's not about literal Nazis

it's about seeing exactly the same kind of patterns and dynamics as during the rise of the 3rd riche

i.e. by every objective measurable metric the US is currently falling to autocracy and fascism

Will that be "literal Nazis" taking over the US, no most likely not. But might it become bad for most US citizens and the World in general to a really really bad point, then yes every thing is pointing in that direction.

If you then add in how much tension both the world economy and geopolitics is in (since years getting worse) it would be strange to assume we aren't at sever risk of WW3 in some form (could be a cold war or similar, too).

Look at how the US is currently trying to get right of a absurd high amount of people (nearly twice as many as Jews where killed by Nazi Germany) most of which do not have a home to go back to and probably most of which other countries don't want to take in (in context of forced deportations, due to such people e.g. being jobless as they had to leave their job behind). And then look at how they started building/expanding Guantanamo and how the current head of state is constantly using dehumanizing language and look on how some of the people he puts in power have outed themself as being very inhuman and cruel in their world view. And then think how is this _not_ going to end in a catastrophe. Not necessary on the level of industrialized mass killing. But really there is no way this is going to end well.

By now the question isn't if people die, but how many digits.

> what you missing is that it's not about literal Nazis

Although Musk gave a Nazi-style salute twice and Nazi flag bearers are not chucked out of MAGA/Trump rallies.

Look to Viktor Orban to see the current playbook
Viktor Orban, Robert Fico, the AfD, Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens etc. all have shady ties to both Russia and Qatar.
Its the same pattern repeating.
not sure why anyone is down voting you

if you list of the Nazies came into power, converted the Weimar Republic into a autocracy and you don't get hung up on things which are specific of their time but instead take the concepts behind them (e.g. "fear mongering and hate against a minority and persecuting them the moment they get in power" instead of "persecution of Jews") then what we are currently seeing is _exactly_ the same

Naturally if you only look at Nazi Germany in it's final form and treat Hitler as a singularity of evil instead of a product of his time it's really easy to not get that.

And yes, sure, there being a absurd amount of similarities doesn't mean that the US will next start mass killing Jews.

Actually if you look at the similarities and for a moment for argumentative reasons assume it will get as bad as Hitler Germany then it still wouldn't be genocide of Jews ... but genocide of "illegal criminals" like Trump loves to say using the same kind of hate speech tools Hitler used for Jews, just using modern language and a different minority instead. Through again if we assume it gets as bad. The point here isn't (at all) that "Trump is Hitler" but that the US is on very dangerous slippery slope to autocracy and fascism which even could (but doesn't has to) end up with some form of genocide because in additional to the checks-and-balances of the US being kinda a joke by now the starting building blocks for genocide are all there too (building of a concentration camp outside of their soil, having a ton of people they want gone from the US but which often have no place to go, using intentional dehumanizing languages systematically and increasingly, starting to dehumanizing and delegitimizing of other minorities too, constantly rilling up of people by the head of the state, systematic removing of checks and balances, increasingly unchecked executive, private forces which do "especially sensitive tasks" (through atm. no private militarized forces), asking people to be loyal to the ruling power instead of the constitution, systematic reinterpreting the constitution in definitely not intended to be that way ways, putting people in power for loyalty with a cause instead of competence, ton of open and less open megalomania, tons of tons of excuses being put out with the intend to reason for unreasonable, cruel actions not possible in a state of law, did I mention rule by emergency edict? (just called executive order), sizing of assets, etc. etc.)

I wonder what Erik Prince is up to these days. Been awfully quiet in the media world. What was Blackwater called last check? Xe or something?
> not sure why anyone is down voting you

I noticed there are a lot of fascists on hackernews. A lot more than you'd ever guess. That's where down votes are coming from. They just got emboldened by current events in USA and around the world to expose themselves.

Regarding random downvotes: Many of my comments just don't resonate with your average HN'er. I'm fine with it.
Impersonating federal officials feels very on-brand.
Halloween came early this year. Pretty ghoulish too.
I'd expect DOGE to do such questioning online, instead of visiting in-person.
Beyond the impersonation, what sounds really odd is this was a group of people who planned this act together. On their own. I’d say that goes well beyond a prank or something similar.
Probably Proud Boys, Patriot Prayer, or some other new fascist militia.
I wouldn’t put it past trolls trying to get in the news
[flagged]
It's funny how that works in different places.

I live in a sleepy suburb, cops have nothing to do.

I wrote an email about how folks coming out of the walmart at an intersection often in en masse continue to make a left turn well after the light changed red. I got a response the next day and the cops spent every other day for two weeks at the intersection.

My local police station published statistics about how many traffic violation tickets are issued:

For example: https://www.sanfranciscopolice.org/sites/default/files/2025-...

For the police station responsible for that crosswalk, the number of citations for Pedestrian Right of Way has gone down over the last 6 months. In December, the whole station issued just one citation for pedestrian right of way.

  Jul 2024 32
  Aug 2024 18
  Sep 2024 26
  Oct 2024 14
  Nov 2024 12
  Dec 2024 1
[flagged]
[flagged]
This is wishful thinking of the highest order
Not sure if sarcastic but it’s a bit premature to assume that’s how it’ll play out. The first part — indiscriminate firings - is underway. Whether anyone left will be capable to do the work that will still be there is yet to be seen.

Just today, there’s this whoopsiedoodle where it seems firings were a bit too indiscriminate and later rescinded. Just like twitter, only at the DoE. Most cool.

https://www.npr.org/2025/02/14/nx-s1-5298190/nuclear-agency-...

The CFPB was effectively shut down with no replacement for the work it's doing (e.x. handling it when your credit card refuses to acknowledge fraud). I believe you on the fired. I don't on the "fixed immediately". I've haven't even seen DOGE itself claim that it's making any pieces of government MORE effective.
(I am assuming this is a good faith comment.)

In SF, the sprawling bureaucracy has enabled the development of an unwieldy set of policies and processes.

To some folks working at SFMTA, 5 years to build two road humps seems totally reasonable, because:

- that's how long they've seen it take before, and

- they know about all the processes that 'must' happen before the road humps can be built

If the number of city employees were halved at random, those horrible processes would still exist, so there wouldn't be an immediate increase in efficiency. There would almost certainly be a drop in output.

But if the number of SF government employees were drastically cut, this might cause enough of a feeling of crisis, that the folks in charge (both bureaucrats and politicians) would feel compelled to find ways to do more with less.

This outcomes is not guaranteed, of course. After all 7% of SF voters work for the city/county government. Any politician who wants to eliminate their roles may worry about the next election.

> the employees refused their requests and called sheriff's deputies. The men had left City Hall before deputies arrived.

> "We do not believe the individuals requesting access to City files were representatives from DOGE," the sheriff's office said Friday.

Why no law enforcement at San Francisco's city hall?

To be fair, it doesn't explicitly say the deputies weren't already at City Hall, just that they weren't at the scene of the incident they were called for.
City hall near me always has some cops stationed there, but they can be called away to do other things, they're not "full time" stationed there.
They hate cops in California.
Curious why they call sheriff deputies and not city police? Is that not the police’s jurisdiction? I’d expect city police to be present but it sounds like the sheriffs were not immediately there
Sheriffs are elected, and wholly part of the state govt. Cops can be more easily coerced by fed enforcement.
I cannot find it, but someone joked on here the other day about people attempting this.
The flagging on these posts is getting out of control.

If you don't agree with the information provided - counter it with what you believe to be more accurate information.

Otherwise? Stop trying to censor shit.

I didn't flag, but what does this have to do with tech/start-up culture? If you want to read/discuss American politics, surely theres better places to do that.
It’s the current western society’s end game. Idolized members of the start-up culture reached the finals.
US government is being run like a shady tech company with no rules and massive layoffs by a guy who a made a few tech companies and is a CEO or whatever of a few of them right now.