I wonder if this Trump presidency is the point where everyone who's said "you should treat all data as if it's public" are about to be proved right, although perhaps not in the way they expected.
There's a thick, bright red line on the floor, as it were. On this side on the line, you have a country whose government respects the private tax data of citizens, controlling who has access to it with some kind of due process. On the other side of the line, you have a country that does not. Let's hope the US government, via DOGE, remains on this side of the line.
I’m not sure how thick that red line really is. I find it hard to believe that this IRS database is used strictly by the IRS and not shared with other agencies (whether in the intelligence community or otherwise). Frankly it doesn’t even matter - the NSA could plant somebody in the IRS and get access to it anyway.
Overall I agree with your premise. There are certainly some safeguards already in place. But even those aren’t foolproof (e.g. an IRS employee leaked 45’s tax returns to NYT). The data is collected and it’s indexed in an automated retrieval system. Any barriers to that will inevitably be circumvented.
Trump, Musk, et al aren't known for respecting boundaries, norms, conventions, ... They don't have concern nor respect for the citizens they "serve". They only care about themselves, everyone else be damned. No chance they don't continue to cross every line they encounter.
Yes, those dictatorial hellscapes of Sweden, Norway, and Finland. Or did you mean the other countries that have public tax returns?
Like I'm not saying this isn't new to the US, and I'm not saying the Nordic models are perfect. But the hysteria in this comment is over the top, and allows others to dismiss why this is likely a bad idea without thinking.
Maybe tax returns should be public, maybe they shouldn't, but what does that have to do with what is going on here? This is currently private data being made available to a select few, currently without oversight.
GP's comment regarding the "Thick, bright red line on the floor" implies tax returns seeing the light of day should never happen in a democratic state. I take issue with that. I consider the terminology used in the comment to be hysterical, which allows Trump supporters to dismiss the entire story more easily.
As far as without oversight: not reporting the entire chain of command does not mean there isn't one. The employee needed certain security clearances to access the system, and they've been granted them (per TFA)
I think we agree on at least a few points though: Neither of us trust the current administration to actually vet who gets security clearance, to trust this is being done in good faith, to believe it will make a realistic difference in tax evasion (especially for the rich), that the time would not be better spent better financing the IRS, or that access will be used responsibly.
I don't think this is a good idea. But let's minimize the histronics and over-the-top language. There's lots to criticize without allowing detractors an easy win.
I don't know if latter news are just entertainment or history-making events.
Whatever is happening in Washington, it doesn't sound like the president's opponents are going to try to stop him, for now. It sounds like this will keep going.
This news cycle is going beyond anxiogenic like it was around 2017-18. I never know if I am witnessing something absurd or if it's the beginning of something serious.
I generally prefer to think that my anxiety is blowing things out of proportion. As any adult would say, I keep saying "it's going to be fine".
I am french, not american, so generally I am just more worried about NATO and Ukraine.
> Whatever is happening in Washington, it doesn't sound like the president's opponents are going to try to stop him, for now. It sounds like this will keep going.
They are trying, but severely limited. The president has control over all 3 branches of government (including both halls of Congress).
When the group in power is following the laws and procedures, it is usually quite easy to obstruct. When the group in power is not following the laws and procedures, you have the current situation.
So we have to come up with an implementation of democracy where bad actors have a harder time evading democracy. So that's not a presidential democracy.
They aren't ineffective so much as the thing they are attempting to do is not what they say.
The democratic party is controlled opposition. Democrats, like Republicans, take in a ton of money from the donor class.
America is a capitalist nation, in capitalism, those with the capital get to reap the profits. The people with the capital therefore end up with more money, and they can use that money to donate to the political class. This causes the political class to become an instrument of the capital class, and the parties end up being marketing.
The goals of the democratic and republican parties both end up to serve capital. Republicans have an easier time since they have incorporated serving capital into their political platform. Democrats end up seeming ineffective because their messaging is that they are somehow taking most of their money from the capital class but are actually on the side of the labor class.
The capital class has the money, but the labor class has the numbers, both parties need the numbers because until we completely do away with democracy, people, not dollars, get to vote.
As the democratic party has become more and more captured by the capital class and their donations, they can no longer seek votes through advancing policies that would support the labor class by restraining the capital class (this would make their donors unhappy). The democratic party pivoted to trying to find a way to carve out least-bad pro-capital class reforms (things like public-private partnerships, school vouchers, etc), least-disruptive pro-labor class reforms (entrenching capital class insurance companies as some kind of improvement to healthcare, slow rolling minimum wage so they could have symbolic victories for keeping up with inflation, and then not even doing that), and more and more towards cultural issues that do not threaten the capital class (LGBTQ+ rights, DEI, etc).
Republicans have adopted populism and wedge issues politics to capture the labor class vote.
The reason the democrats are terrible opposition isn't because we've somehow elected the dumbest people imaginable, it's that they are pointing at a different goal. Their goal is to remain in the political class, to keep the donations of the donor class (which just happens to be the capital class) flowing, and if that class says "let the massive tax cuts for us play out, we don't care about the fallout" that's what they will do.
Democrats were restrained by the law, and so Republicans were empowered to slow them down and stop them. What’s happening now with DOGE is completely lawless. Democrats can’t use process to stop them because they’re going around the process.
Your comment shows an ignorance of how American government works.
The president has vast powers when it comes to the administration of the state. Democrats could impeach him but don't have the votes. They can use the courts and that's already being done.
Instead of claiming bad faith maybe you could tell us what you'd have the Democrats do.
> maybe you could tell us what you'd have the Democrats do
Instead of limp statements by Schumer and the like taking about "bromances" and complaining about how Trump and Musk are executing their actions, maybe they could focus on what is being done and the actual substance and consequences of it.
It's politically safer for them to stop at the how. But their constituents care about substance, not dramatics. People are generally numb to this stuff, because we constantly hear each side attack the other relentlessly, like immature grade schoolers. It's noise that we've been programmed to tuned out.
I could be wrong and maybe the Democrats have pure intentions this one time, but if you don't believe that politicians root for the other team to fail, despite the negative consequences to the people they represent, then I'm afraid you may be the ignorant one.
>> This news cycle is going beyond anxiogenic like it was around 2017-18. I never know if I am witnessing something absurd or if it's the beginning of something serious.
It's weird though because it feels like with all the really "anxiogenic" stuff, I'm learning about it from HN, reddit, etc instead of actual legacy media.
For instance, they're doing the largest layoff in HISTORY right now with federal employees and the Eric Adams thing is the top story I'm seeing, etc.
It almost feels like ""MSM"" is glossing over the details to go more high-level "policy" news to make it seem like politics as "slightly" usual.
It's kinda wild that the most in-depth reporting on the DOGE takeover is coming from outlets like Wired and 404 when it seems like this SHOULD be an anxiogenic, huge, all-caps headline-style news cycle when it really doesn't read that way on any mainstream news outlet.
When a President publicly hangs his felony mugshot next to all the other paintings of the previous Presidents
he's announcing his identity and belief system and making his criminal past part of his future so it all becomes meaningless
Combined with this quote, expect people to be disappearing soon, actually he technically has already erased certain classes of people on paper, so physically next is not a big step from there.
As a history refresher: DOGE is part of the USDS, created by Barack Obama in 2014.
Dealing with PII was an overt part of their remit, as the Medicare system (written in COBOL) had substantial difficulties dealing with regulatory change, and it was to be modernized. As special government employees, they were 1) consultants not appointed through the regular process and 2) had widespread access to software systems and private data across the federal government. And yes, many of them were the age of current DOGE employees.
At its height, there were 700+ employees with varying levels of access like this.
Accessing PII is normal for federal contractors, even young ones. I worked on the maintenance database for the F-35 strike fighter when I was 23. There are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people through the federal system and contractors with access to information like this.
Thank you for introducing some facts into this cesspool of handwringing and pearl-clutching. Of course, facts will be downvoted, but we both expect that.
Apart from the access being normal, even if it weren’t, it is bizarre that people are obsessing over these details daily. The same people did not care what their administration did daily previously. They probably also were happy to see Trump’s tax returns leaked. They didn’t care when various large security breaches happened last year. But suddenly privacy is a life and death issue. This is partisanship taken to an extreme degree.
This one has been fascinating to watch because it is moving so fast it is almost not leaving enough time for the conservative universe to marshal their rationalization machine. This is not being run like the USDS at all, there is no oversight, no published protocols, no firewalling. Basically, no rules. This ain't normal, and you shouldn't be trying to convince people it is.
All your financial data, in the hands of idiot teenagers who already accidently laid off nuclear regulators, and posted an unlocked database. great. That's leaking within days
36 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 78.6 ms ] threadOverall I agree with your premise. There are certainly some safeguards already in place. But even those aren’t foolproof (e.g. an IRS employee leaked 45’s tax returns to NYT). The data is collected and it’s indexed in an automated retrieval system. Any barriers to that will inevitably be circumvented.
Like I'm not saying this isn't new to the US, and I'm not saying the Nordic models are perfect. But the hysteria in this comment is over the top, and allows others to dismiss why this is likely a bad idea without thinking.
As far as without oversight: not reporting the entire chain of command does not mean there isn't one. The employee needed certain security clearances to access the system, and they've been granted them (per TFA)
I think we agree on at least a few points though: Neither of us trust the current administration to actually vet who gets security clearance, to trust this is being done in good faith, to believe it will make a realistic difference in tax evasion (especially for the rich), that the time would not be better spent better financing the IRS, or that access will be used responsibly.
I don't think this is a good idea. But let's minimize the histronics and over-the-top language. There's lots to criticize without allowing detractors an easy win.
Whatever is happening in Washington, it doesn't sound like the president's opponents are going to try to stop him, for now. It sounds like this will keep going.
This news cycle is going beyond anxiogenic like it was around 2017-18. I never know if I am witnessing something absurd or if it's the beginning of something serious.
I generally prefer to think that my anxiety is blowing things out of proportion. As any adult would say, I keep saying "it's going to be fine".
I am french, not american, so generally I am just more worried about NATO and Ukraine.
What opponents? The GOP that's been completely remade in the President's image? Or the Democrats that don't control any levers of power in Washington?
They are trying, but severely limited. The president has control over all 3 branches of government (including both halls of Congress).
The Democrats are failing at that, and it's wrong to say that's because they're actually powerless. They aren't. What they are is ineffective.
The democratic party is controlled opposition. Democrats, like Republicans, take in a ton of money from the donor class.
America is a capitalist nation, in capitalism, those with the capital get to reap the profits. The people with the capital therefore end up with more money, and they can use that money to donate to the political class. This causes the political class to become an instrument of the capital class, and the parties end up being marketing.
The goals of the democratic and republican parties both end up to serve capital. Republicans have an easier time since they have incorporated serving capital into their political platform. Democrats end up seeming ineffective because their messaging is that they are somehow taking most of their money from the capital class but are actually on the side of the labor class.
The capital class has the money, but the labor class has the numbers, both parties need the numbers because until we completely do away with democracy, people, not dollars, get to vote.
As the democratic party has become more and more captured by the capital class and their donations, they can no longer seek votes through advancing policies that would support the labor class by restraining the capital class (this would make their donors unhappy). The democratic party pivoted to trying to find a way to carve out least-bad pro-capital class reforms (things like public-private partnerships, school vouchers, etc), least-disruptive pro-labor class reforms (entrenching capital class insurance companies as some kind of improvement to healthcare, slow rolling minimum wage so they could have symbolic victories for keeping up with inflation, and then not even doing that), and more and more towards cultural issues that do not threaten the capital class (LGBTQ+ rights, DEI, etc).
Republicans have adopted populism and wedge issues politics to capture the labor class vote.
The reason the democrats are terrible opposition isn't because we've somehow elected the dumbest people imaginable, it's that they are pointing at a different goal. Their goal is to remain in the political class, to keep the donations of the donor class (which just happens to be the capital class) flowing, and if that class says "let the massive tax cuts for us play out, we don't care about the fallout" that's what they will do.
I don't think they have an incentive to. Better for them to sit back and watch trump break things so they can be the ones to (campaign to) fix it.
They just need to boo from the sidelines and hope for the worst.
The president has vast powers when it comes to the administration of the state. Democrats could impeach him but don't have the votes. They can use the courts and that's already being done.
Instead of claiming bad faith maybe you could tell us what you'd have the Democrats do.
Instead of limp statements by Schumer and the like taking about "bromances" and complaining about how Trump and Musk are executing their actions, maybe they could focus on what is being done and the actual substance and consequences of it.
It's politically safer for them to stop at the how. But their constituents care about substance, not dramatics. People are generally numb to this stuff, because we constantly hear each side attack the other relentlessly, like immature grade schoolers. It's noise that we've been programmed to tuned out.
I could be wrong and maybe the Democrats have pure intentions this one time, but if you don't believe that politicians root for the other team to fail, despite the negative consequences to the people they represent, then I'm afraid you may be the ignorant one.
It's weird though because it feels like with all the really "anxiogenic" stuff, I'm learning about it from HN, reddit, etc instead of actual legacy media.
For instance, they're doing the largest layoff in HISTORY right now with federal employees and the Eric Adams thing is the top story I'm seeing, etc.
It almost feels like ""MSM"" is glossing over the details to go more high-level "policy" news to make it seem like politics as "slightly" usual.
It's kinda wild that the most in-depth reporting on the DOGE takeover is coming from outlets like Wired and 404 when it seems like this SHOULD be an anxiogenic, huge, all-caps headline-style news cycle when it really doesn't read that way on any mainstream news outlet.
he's announcing his identity and belief system and making his criminal past part of his future so it all becomes meaningless
Combined with this quote, expect people to be disappearing soon, actually he technically has already erased certain classes of people on paper, so physically next is not a big step from there.
* https://media.zenfs.com/en/buzzfeed_articles_778/15b6c083feb...
That quote was made in week 4. There are over 200 more weeks to go.
What law is going to be too far when he's not running for re-election one way or another?
Dealing with PII was an overt part of their remit, as the Medicare system (written in COBOL) had substantial difficulties dealing with regulatory change, and it was to be modernized. As special government employees, they were 1) consultants not appointed through the regular process and 2) had widespread access to software systems and private data across the federal government. And yes, many of them were the age of current DOGE employees.
At its height, there were 700+ employees with varying levels of access like this.
Accessing PII is normal for federal contractors, even young ones. I worked on the maintenance database for the F-35 strike fighter when I was 23. There are tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people through the federal system and contractors with access to information like this.