Well, your degree seems mostly useless for your chosen line of work, so you don't really need the diploma, but as you already know and stated, that's stealing. It would also kill your credit score meaning that you might never have good enough credit to buy a house.
If, in the context of development work, you find an employer that requires a degree as a prerequisite they will probably specify it being something related to CS, EE, math or maybe MIS. They would probably view a degree in music composition as pretty worthless (again, in the context of software development), so it doesn't sound like it would matter.
In five years time your degree should have become pretty much nebulous on your resume/CV. You won't be getting hired on the basis of your education but your experience. So screw 'em, you're in the adult world now, where people pay you for your time and effort, not the other way round.
This world relies on educating its descendants, in fact it profits from doing so. But it should only profits from the actions of the descendants later in life, not the direct charging of their education. I'd much rather live in a world where I invest in the schools that made me successful instead of being forcing my children into debt before they even have their first job.
In theory, since you are already working as a developer at a startup, you might not necessarily need that music degree. But there are lot of other potential issues that you need to look at. Firstly, the university will come after you for every penny and they will send your account to collections. So you risk ruining your credit. Another thing, if you end up leaving this startup, you never know if the next employer will ask you why you did not get the degree even though you studied through the entire undergrad? This could be a red flag for some employers because it shows you as a quitter.
In short, don't do this. Figure out a way to pay it off. You will be thankful later on in life.
If you think the only outcome of not paying your school will be that you don't receive "a piece of paper", you are too stupid to hire for any job. Sorry.
Life is going to be hard until you smarten up a little.
Oi, I didn't initially ask for outside opinions on my intelligence.
The comments thus far have only exacerbated my moral dilemma. Living in a country where we must pay absurds amount of money to obtain an undergrad degree, the consequences of not following through on payment is a type of debtors prison. Not only do I not receive my degree, I'm likely not be able to purchase a car, laptop, house, computer. Job opportunities are compromised, and the distance to which I can pursue a career is likely shortened. Ouch!
You should pay it because after a while universities will outsource it to other thugs (i.e. mean debt collectors) who can get pretty mean depending on the amount owed. Not to mention ruining your credit. That startup job is great, but also consider the possibility of not passing the credit checks done by landlords near its office or the office of your next job.
Keep in mind you don't necessarily need to pay it off as soon as possible (though it is what I'd recommend.) I do know PhDs that have a monthly payment and they think of it the same as like the monthly power bill. They consider just something people pay in life to keep the lights on. You could go that route too.
Either route, whether it be living frugally and paying off quickly or paying it off over time in exchange for having more alcohol money, get it paid off.
If you're already overdue, also call the school asap. Once they hand it off to third parties you'll be in a bigger world of hurt. Often the finance dept of the school can give some leeway if you just talk to them, including zero interest payment plans.
As a practical matter, you should pay it. 20k isn't a huge student debt.
There are some occasions when it may be ok, with great regret, to fail to pay yor debts. There is a reason we allow bankruptcy. Sometimes circumstance or just very poor judgement (often both) means a person will be impoverished for the rest of his or her life trying to pay off a debt. In this case, we do allow a clean start, after a period of credit purgatory. Creditors do need to be careful too.
This is one reason I'm not a big fan of the student loan system. No way would a creditor loan 160k to a mucis major
with no assets under normal circmstances. But the govt guarantees the loan, by taking away the option of ordinary bankruptcy. This can be very harmful.
But in your case? 20k of student loan isn't a terrible burden. it makes sense to loan this amount and to pay it.
Whether you get the document or not is not the issue. What's at hand are the consequences of not paying your obligation. It will come back to haunt you. Student Loans - cannot be discharged in bankruptcy. Your credit will be ruined, debt collectors will hassle and any wages you get will be subject to garnishment. I disagree that your education is not valuable to an employer. Many of the most talented developers I've associated with over the year are musicians and their musical training - whether at a school or through self-discovery is was a huge advantage in their careers as software developers. Don't be so quick to disregard your education. Bottom-line, pay your bills or you be sorry.
Why did you wrap the word "stealing" in quotes? It's exactly what you would be doing. If you think you'll get away with it then you're too dumb for me to hire anyway.
I'd say it doesn't matter either way, the damage is already done.
While this thread doesn't seem to have been indexed by Google yet, give it a couple of days and any potential employers searching for a phrase like "evan livingston software developer" will probably see this thread and be rewarded with a great insight into who you are.
I know I wouldn't want to employ someone who has no moral issues with stealing something worth $20,000.
Man. You are some kind of idiot. Everyone here now knows your name, facebook account, HN username, personal web site, etc...
You really need to delete this, pay your debt, and seek advice for every decision you make for the rest of your life no matter how small it seems. Your judgment is not to be trusted.
You really need to delete this thread. Not paying a debt you agreed to pay is stupid. Announcing your plan to not pay it on HN is much worse. You know this is the internet, right?
Don't pay it. What do I care? You'll find out that it was a bad choice and you'll be forced to correct it. Just do yourself a favor and don't tell all your future employers how you handle responsibility you no long care to deal with.
You mentioned "However, I might want to eventually go to grad school." They will require a transcript from college, and college won't release it unless you settle the debt.
It happened to me - I was 100% covered by financial aid in college all 4 years (well I finished in 3.5 - so 3.5 years). After about 5 years working, I applied to masters, they asked for transcript, and bachelors college refused, they said I didn't pay 2k. I didn't have any documents about financial aid anymore, and didn't feel like fighting, so just paid it.
Funny thing is they never even bother to tell me that they thought I owned them money, if they said it right after I finished college, I would have had all my financial aid papers, and would have settled it differently.
This story is actually starting to seem too suspiciously like someone pissed off the real Evan Livingston of Indiana and is now trying to drag his name through the mud online. (I'm guessing an ex or a former classmate or former coworker.)
1) New account, recently created, with only 1 submission.
2) Link to an otherwise empty page that just happens to link to all of this guy's online identities.
3) Inconsistent facts. Claims that he would like to develop software for a living, but then immediately states that he is already employed doing that and apparently has sufficient experience to jump to San Francisco.
4) States that he might eventually want to go to grad school. For what, exactly? He already has a job in his desired field.
28 comments
[ 2.1 ms ] story [ 77.6 ms ] threadThis world relies on educating its descendants, in fact it profits from doing so. But it should only profits from the actions of the descendants later in life, not the direct charging of their education. I'd much rather live in a world where I invest in the schools that made me successful instead of being forcing my children into debt before they even have their first job.
In short, don't do this. Figure out a way to pay it off. You will be thankful later on in life.
Life is going to be hard until you smarten up a little.
The comments thus far have only exacerbated my moral dilemma. Living in a country where we must pay absurds amount of money to obtain an undergrad degree, the consequences of not following through on payment is a type of debtors prison. Not only do I not receive my degree, I'm likely not be able to purchase a car, laptop, house, computer. Job opportunities are compromised, and the distance to which I can pursue a career is likely shortened. Ouch!
Keep in mind you don't necessarily need to pay it off as soon as possible (though it is what I'd recommend.) I do know PhDs that have a monthly payment and they think of it the same as like the monthly power bill. They consider just something people pay in life to keep the lights on. You could go that route too.
Either route, whether it be living frugally and paying off quickly or paying it off over time in exchange for having more alcohol money, get it paid off.
If you're already overdue, also call the school asap. Once they hand it off to third parties you'll be in a bigger world of hurt. Often the finance dept of the school can give some leeway if you just talk to them, including zero interest payment plans.
There are some occasions when it may be ok, with great regret, to fail to pay yor debts. There is a reason we allow bankruptcy. Sometimes circumstance or just very poor judgement (often both) means a person will be impoverished for the rest of his or her life trying to pay off a debt. In this case, we do allow a clean start, after a period of credit purgatory. Creditors do need to be careful too.
This is one reason I'm not a big fan of the student loan system. No way would a creditor loan 160k to a mucis major with no assets under normal circmstances. But the govt guarantees the loan, by taking away the option of ordinary bankruptcy. This can be very harmful.
But in your case? 20k of student loan isn't a terrible burden. it makes sense to loan this amount and to pay it.
While this thread doesn't seem to have been indexed by Google yet, give it a couple of days and any potential employers searching for a phrase like "evan livingston software developer" will probably see this thread and be rewarded with a great insight into who you are.
I know I wouldn't want to employ someone who has no moral issues with stealing something worth $20,000.
You really need to delete this, pay your debt, and seek advice for every decision you make for the rest of your life no matter how small it seems. Your judgment is not to be trusted.
Don't pay it. What do I care? You'll find out that it was a bad choice and you'll be forced to correct it. Just do yourself a favor and don't tell all your future employers how you handle responsibility you no long care to deal with.
It may be some schmuck trying to ruin some other guy's online reputation.
It happened to me - I was 100% covered by financial aid in college all 4 years (well I finished in 3.5 - so 3.5 years). After about 5 years working, I applied to masters, they asked for transcript, and bachelors college refused, they said I didn't pay 2k. I didn't have any documents about financial aid anymore, and didn't feel like fighting, so just paid it. Funny thing is they never even bother to tell me that they thought I owned them money, if they said it right after I finished college, I would have had all my financial aid papers, and would have settled it differently.
1) New account, recently created, with only 1 submission.
2) Link to an otherwise empty page that just happens to link to all of this guy's online identities.
3) Inconsistent facts. Claims that he would like to develop software for a living, but then immediately states that he is already employed doing that and apparently has sufficient experience to jump to San Francisco.
4) States that he might eventually want to go to grad school. For what, exactly? He already has a job in his desired field.
2) I recently redesigned my site to be more minimal / wanted to build it from scratch using vim.
3) I would like to develop my own software / I want to continue learning the craft by working alongside energetic and excited people.
4) Developing software might become less interesting, I might want to focus on computer science more.