Can anyone please clarify whether the new board has any Thunderbolt or USB 4 at all? If not, I wonder why? Is Thunderbolt not generally considered essential?
2x USB4 according to the specs, which (as I understand it) is Thunderbolt compatible, although I don’t believe framework has paid for the certification.
It's hard to justify this over an M4 Pro 14" MBP unless you absolutely must have 100% compatibility with Windows or Linux.
The Framework @ $2,100 vs $2,000 M4 Pro 14":
* Significantly slower CPU, GPU, NPU
* Significantly less efficient, with way worse battery life
* Performance declines by as much as 50% as soon as you unplug it
* Way worse screen, with only 60hz
* Fewer ports
* Worse keyboard and trackpad
* Thicker
* $100 more expensive
* Way less resale value
* You can say repairability but Macs are tanks and last significantly longer than the average Windows PC and often get a second life after resale
* You do get 8GB more RAM (but much slower), and 512GB more storage I guess.
Personally, when people say Windows laptops offer more value. I look around and I always find that comparable quality Windows laptops are just as expensive or even more expensive than Macs.
I don’t find the frame.work laptops to be particularly “value” oriented, you are paying a decent chunk for modularity/repairability.
Something like the $2k price point of the Asus G14 line is going to stomp all over the Mac in GPU performance, scores similarly to the base M4 in multicore CPU performance, and is using lpDDR5X so the memory performance is quite high as well. The aesthetics leave a lot to be desired but…
Getting 8gb and 512gb more on the mac is a several hundreds markup.
This highlights the insanity of the pricing of Apple products. They could annihilate the pc laptop market with decent ram and storage pricing, but it wouldn't be as profitable.
The pc laptop market still exist because Apple don't care.
The innovation value of Apple Silicon is severely underestimated.
I don't own any Apple products but have bookmarked the Asahi Wiki.
> They could annihilate the pc laptop market with decent ram and storage pricing
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Though their hardware is capable, Apple has very intentionally left behind large markets of software with specific choices they've made, including dropping support for 32-bit legacy applications, developing their own proprietary graphics API in the form of Metal, deprecating OpenGL, and refusing to support portable, cross-platform APIs like Vulkan.
Apple computers compete against Apple computers, not PCs in general.
Actually owning your laptop instead of being locked in a garden/prison managed by a soulless corporation is a must for me.
Notably MBP benefits don't matter much you're using your laptop as a mobile workstation. People love to boast about Mac's batter life, but my Framework is set in BIOS to 60% of max battery life because 95% of the time it's standing on a stand, plugged to an external screen and keyboard&mouse. As a developer I need a proper chair, split keyboard, good posture, if I want to make it to the old age with this lifestyle. Laptop form factor is for this 5% of the time when I want/need to work from somewhere else than my desk.
Also, if you're a developer there's a lot of perf loss and impedance mismatch with Linux ecosystem (like x86_64 emulation) on Mac.
So Framework is kind of a Linux dev go to machine ATM. Different priorities. For others ... yeah... a nice appliance like MBP might be a better choice.
Oh, and the biggest advantage, is that I can replace a lot of stuff and not need to lose my stickers!
Actually owning your laptop instead of being locked in a garden/prison managed by a soulless corporation is a must for me.
macOS is open.
Notably MBP benefits don't matter much you're using your laptop as a mobile workstation. People love to boast about Mac's batter life, but my Framework is set in BIOS to 60% of max battery life because 95% of the time it's standing on a stand, plugged to an external screen and keyboard&mouse. As a developer I need a proper chair, split keyboard, good posture, if I want to make it to the old age with this lifestyle. Laptop form factor is for this 5% of the time when I want/need to work from somewhere else than my desk.
If battery life doesn't matter to you, then surely speed does right? M4 Pro is roughly 56% faster in ST and about the same in MT.
Also, if you're a developer there's a lot of perf loss and impedance mismatch with Linux ecosystem (like x86_64 emulation) on Mac.
Even after emulation, Apple Silicon is often still faster. The fastest Windows laptop is actually an M4 Max running Parallels.
So Framework is kind of a Linux dev go to machine ATM. Different priorities. For others ... yeah... a nice appliance like MBP might be a better choice.
Agreed. I think most people prefer macOS as a dev OS to Linux.
Oh, and the biggest advantage, is that I can replace a lot of stuff and not need to lose my stickers!
Framework's parts are known to be very expensive. It's probably cheaper to simply sell your Apple Silicon laptop (which always has high resale value) and simply buy a new one.
I think it's great that Apple continues to bring powerful hardware to market but their software quality has fallen behind, laggy performance issues and fewer and fewer devs building for macOS due to Apple's oppressive package signing policies. If I had to choose between slightly less powerful hardware (who cares?) and having replaceable and upgradable parts I'm gonna choose that every time. Upgrading between macbooks is more expensive than upgrading between Framework models.
Also what do you mean by 'macOS is open' in what regard is it open?
And if that 56% faster chip didn't exist, or if it were replaced tomorrow by an even better chip that doesn't mean I need it to do my work. I don't see why I should chase benchmarks anymore if it doesn't give me any new real benefits, and the vision and execution behind macOS as an ecosystem doesn't seem to be getting any better
Some of those stats look a bit shaky. Npu on the Mac has less tops. The ram is lower clocked and I doubt the gpu one too frankly.
Not that it matters - it’s not the base config or performance where things fall apart for Apple but rather adding reasonable amounts of ram and storage. Straight from reasonable to extortion pricing thanks to lock in
Not that it matters - it’s not the base config or performance where things fall apart for Apple but rather adding reasonable amounts of ram and storage. Straight from reasonable to extortion pricing thanks to lock in
In terms of value, the M4 Pro is still comfortably ahead. The difference in speed, efficiency, component quality, and overall package is worth the value.
That's a strange comparison; the Framework laptop is for people who want a machine they can reconfigure and upgrade. It's not even trying to compete on price, any more than the Macbook is competing in terms of modularity.
One of my coworkers has a Framework laptop, uses it daily, and loves it. I'll probably look into getting one myself someday, if my Thinkpad ever gets around to dying.
The Macbook would not be an option for me, as Linux support is a firm requirement; I lost my stomach for Apple's paternalism years ago.
Interesting. I've been looking at the Framework 13 to replace my Asus. Now the older versions are cheaper too. In these cases I go by the assumption that the leap in perf is mostly not noticeable to me so I would go with the old version.
18 comments
[ 5.0 ms ] story [ 77.9 ms ] thread> Interfaces
> Supports USB4 with DisplayPort output and USB-PD power input on the rear two slots
> Supports USB 3.2 with DisplayPort output and USB-PD power input on the front two slots
https://frame.work/laptop13?tab=specs
The Framework @ $2,100 vs $2,000 M4 Pro 14":
* Significantly slower CPU, GPU, NPU
* Significantly less efficient, with way worse battery life
* Performance declines by as much as 50% as soon as you unplug it
* Way worse screen, with only 60hz
* Fewer ports
* Worse keyboard and trackpad
* Thicker
* $100 more expensive
* Way less resale value
* You can say repairability but Macs are tanks and last significantly longer than the average Windows PC and often get a second life after resale
* You do get 8GB more RAM (but much slower), and 512GB more storage I guess.
Personally, when people say Windows laptops offer more value. I look around and I always find that comparable quality Windows laptops are just as expensive or even more expensive than Macs.
Something like the $2k price point of the Asus G14 line is going to stomp all over the Mac in GPU performance, scores similarly to the base M4 in multicore CPU performance, and is using lpDDR5X so the memory performance is quite high as well. The aesthetics leave a lot to be desired but…
I wouldn't be so sure about that. Though their hardware is capable, Apple has very intentionally left behind large markets of software with specific choices they've made, including dropping support for 32-bit legacy applications, developing their own proprietary graphics API in the form of Metal, deprecating OpenGL, and refusing to support portable, cross-platform APIs like Vulkan.
Apple computers compete against Apple computers, not PCs in general.
Notably MBP benefits don't matter much you're using your laptop as a mobile workstation. People love to boast about Mac's batter life, but my Framework is set in BIOS to 60% of max battery life because 95% of the time it's standing on a stand, plugged to an external screen and keyboard&mouse. As a developer I need a proper chair, split keyboard, good posture, if I want to make it to the old age with this lifestyle. Laptop form factor is for this 5% of the time when I want/need to work from somewhere else than my desk.
Also, if you're a developer there's a lot of perf loss and impedance mismatch with Linux ecosystem (like x86_64 emulation) on Mac.
So Framework is kind of a Linux dev go to machine ATM. Different priorities. For others ... yeah... a nice appliance like MBP might be a better choice.
Oh, and the biggest advantage, is that I can replace a lot of stuff and not need to lose my stickers!
Also what do you mean by 'macOS is open' in what regard is it open?
Not that it matters - it’s not the base config or performance where things fall apart for Apple but rather adding reasonable amounts of ram and storage. Straight from reasonable to extortion pricing thanks to lock in
One of my coworkers has a Framework laptop, uses it daily, and loves it. I'll probably look into getting one myself someday, if my Thinkpad ever gets around to dying.
The Macbook would not be an option for me, as Linux support is a firm requirement; I lost my stomach for Apple's paternalism years ago.