Laptop of choice for a Programmer, Need Help
Reasons for getting a new laptop: 1. My 14" Dell 600m is falling apart, literally. Pieces of the case are falling off. I get electrocuted by the battery regularly. The screen hinges are on their last leg.
2. I need a reliable back-up machine because my desktop has some serious irreconcilable gremlims. This is particularly true because I tend to rage if I lose code when a machine goes down.
3. I just lost ~$1500 of stuff including my desktop computer monitor (amongst other things) and had to borrow a couple CRTs from some friends to get my desktop back up and running. I'd like to invest in a machine I tote with me.
Necessities: 1. DVD Burner. Non-negotiable. 2. Not 17", not a netbook.
Niceties: 1. Mac OS X. Huge bonus. This means hardware that can run mac OS X natively that isn't a netbook, or an actual macbook if there are no options. (I haven't found such a non-apple laptop that is not a netbook and can run leopard natively, do you guys know of one that isn't an MSI Wind or Dell Mini 9?)
I want the unix without the hassle. I likes my bash, but the situation with Linux and the lack of robustness for the power user/home user is getting absurd. I've been using Linux for a decade, and I'm tired of hoping it'll sort itself out.
2. Something under $1.5k, preferably under $1k. I'll take suggestions above that mark if they're sufficiently z0mg-great, but I just had a lot of stuff stolen and don't need to dump a car worth's of cash on a laptop.
3. Within the 13-14" range. 12s are too small for long-term use, 15s too big for what I use a laptop for. 13 and 14 is usually perfect. I can deal with 15 for the right laptop.
4. A graphics chip that can run a few games (Eve Online in my case) is a plus. This is particularly notable because again, if deskie goes down, it'd be nice if this could take up all functions inherent to my desktop. Not a necessity for the right laptop.
5. Illuminated keyboard. Wicked yo.
CANDIDATES SO FAR:
New Last-gen Macbook: $999 <=== this is shaping up to be a poor deal. No DVD-burner, integrated graphics, and high'ish price. However, this can be rectified with a refurb model I found from apple. $949 for 2.4GHz White model with DVD Burner and 2 GB of ram.
XPS M1330: This occurred to me because of CodingHorror, but fer godssakes, in order to get the dedicated graphics I hit the macbook price point, which at that point, I'm buying a macbook.
Dell Studios and Inspirons are out of the question. Price efficient to an extent, but too big and the reasonable-sized Inspiron (13") isn't easy to turn into an all-rounder without making it get within sniffing distance of the $949 Macbook.
Lenovo Thinkpads (T400/X300?): Wonderful machines, and I love the hardware compatibility with Linux/BSD. However, the price enters the stratosphere quickly (buying a macbook at that point, again), and the build quality isn't as good as it used to be. I have nothing but love for the trackpoint though. A trackpoint is the only interface related improvement I could make upon a macbook pro personally.
Sony VAIO Laptops: Great build quality, I like the chiclet keyboards (not just because apple uses them, I'm just fast with them). Nice machines, and the price isn't as bad as it used to be, but it's impossible to get one with something better than integrated graphics without bumping into macbook territory. The accessories are hell on earth expensive too, like Lenovo.
What do you guys use? How do you use it? How many of you are using Macs? Seems like a lot these days.
Software I use:
I do do some .NET programming, but I'd like to migrate to using more python/ruby. I don't mind dual-booting a mac in case I need to.
EDIT: Another plus to the Macs is I'd love to give iphone dev a try!
Suggestions?
108 comments
[ 1627 ms ] story [ 1842 ms ] threadI had a 15" but couldn't develop on it. Since I got this 17", I've used it 100% of the time, 10+ hours a day.
If the Dell Studio 15's were compatible with leopard, I'd go with that because there's a 1900x1200 resolution upgrade that is VERY reasonably priced.
If you regularly plug into a bigger screen, a smaller machine might be better. If the Dell isn't compatible yet, I'm sure it will be in the future. Darn hackers!
There just isn't much in the way of progress. The only people out there making any (somewhat) progress is the macvidia team and they're still fundamentally reliant upon Apple's willingness to support a given chip for the Mac Pro.
It's not a matter of time if no one cares.
The problem is that people either already own a mac and don't care about people who can't afford one, or they don't care about using the OS.
I love the hardware, I really really do, but I'm not dumping that kind of money into a machine. It's not feasible on my income (meager).
One of the things that pushed towards the Dell 830 and away from the MBP was that I was used to the 1920x1200 rez but liked getting that on a 15" screen. (That and a preference for a clit mouse.)
Bought it with the FreeDOS option, tossed on Kubuntu, and happily hacking away.
I'll poke around ebay and see if I find anything worthwhile.
Amazon had the 2.5 GHz model (the one Apple was selling for $2500 a few months ago) for $1500, but it looks like that deal ended with December. Maybe it will come back.
You can still get the 2.4 GHz model (orig $2000) for $1400 from MacMall and maybe other places.
As for me, I use a 1st gen black MacBook w/Leopard, added a bigger HDD and aftermarket RAM to 2GB. I use a Logitech V470 bluetooth mouse which I carry everywhere, and I've got a couple of bluetooth apple keyboards (shorties without the num pad) - one for the office and one at home. For external monitors I've got a cheap Dell 23" widescreen in each location.
For the occasional Windows mission (usually to load updates to my N95) I was using Win XP via Parallels, but my experience with the performance of the last few releases has left me wanting and I'm currently using a trial copy of VMWare Fusion.
If you want to comparison shop, Parallels and VirtualBox are also options. Others I know have been happy with both, but I haven't played much with either.
I have no trouble with Fusion, except for playing some old games, but I have 4GB RAM. I'm not sure if the 2GB you get with the new MacBook is enough.
From the site: Runs on Windows, Linux, Macintosh and OpenSolaris hosts and supports a large number of guest operating systems including but not limited to Windows (NT 4.0, 2000, XP, Server 2003, Vista), DOS/Windows 3.x, Linux (2.4 and 2.6), Solaris and OpenSolaris, and OpenBSD.
On this site, you can find sources, binaries, documentation and other resources for VirtualBox. For up-to-date press coverage about VirtualBox: blogs.sun.com/VirtualBoxBuzz
Who said macbook was the only way to go over 1k? ever read zed shaw's horror story? yeah.
Or are you just hell-bent on getting a mac and none of this discussion really matters?
Failing that, it makes me nauseous thinking of paying over 1k for hardware that is as poorly constructed and ugly as most PC laptops tend to be.
Exception: Sony VAIOs. Pretty little thangs, and the predominance of intel hardware makes me think they're Linux compatible. If I can configure a sharp looking VAIO with dedicated graphics for under 1k, she's mine.
"I want a mac, but anyone have suggestions for decent PCs under 1k with DVD burners?"
and then when your karma hit 150, you could start a poll for "how many people use macs" like you asked --
...instead of a tirade about electrocuting batteries and whatever the heck else you talked about cause mix a mac survey with computer suggestions and you're looking for a mess.
And seriously, VAIOs? You might as well go for a Mac. I mean, all that tells me is that you care about how your lappy looks and not about what it does. Get a Sager for god's sake. you can configure one for about 1k and it will run better and last longer than any silly overpriced vaio out there. I mean if you're looking for 1k computers, you should chuck the word vaio out the window.
It's not the looks so much as I hate it when plastic creaks. It squicks me out.
The sagers look (reviews back this up) sturdy though.
The $949 model I mentioned that is refurb has a DVD-Burner.
Not a student? They don't check if you order it online, but they do at the Apple store (I bought mine this summer before receiving my student id).
Or you could get a new this-gen MB for $1249 with a student discount. That's what I would do if I were buying a computer now.
Only things that don't work in OS X are Ethernet, Card Reader, and you have to manually press the Power button for 5 seconds to power down. Other than that, it's great.
Possibly compatible, who knows.
Both of my Macs developed some hardware issues in their first year, and both issues are quite widespread among other Mac users according to Apple forums.
Just pointing out that the world is bigger than it seems.
In fact, I never understood why the RoR guys insist on macs for development - I've found development much easier on linux. On the other hand, I'm also not trading in my mac any time soon - it's by far the best music recording platform out there.
No, the same font renders like a crap on Win/Linux/FreeType/Cairo/whatsoever ...
Considering I'm facing the code in the font most of the day, I'm willing to pay $100 to just have it.
The new ones are still too new to know if they'll be similarly problematic. I was disappointed with the new model not supporting firewire or more than 4 GB of RAM though, so I probably won't upgrade any time soon.
I don't think Macbook could ever compare to Thinkpad T61/T500 for some serious development. Ever.
Macbook Pro is another story, with another price tag too :)
keep in mind that on ANY computer, you can install windows and dual boot ubuntu with the WUBI installer, which is a REAL linux installation that uses your windows partition to run (so it doesnt use the extention filesystem). that solves the "hassle free linux" problem.
I personally have been using a Dell Precision M70 Workstation with a Quadro 1400go gfx (1920x1200 res) for the past 3 and a half years, which has been awesome. Like you, my system got old, and I customized a cyberpower laptop for 1 grand. I got geforce 8600gt (yes last gen I know but that was months ago), core 2 duo (the fastest I could afford at the time), minimum ram (I bought another 4gb later to install), dvd burner, and all that jazz.
Love it.
The partitions were never my problem.
Here are my problems:
Fucking sound will break when I update my software as Ubuntu asks me to do.
I'll fix this, install compiz, then X.org will break. Uninstall compiz, get X back, but on the wrong resolution.
Fix the xorg.conf, get my resolution back. Now my 3d Acceleration isn't working.
Install propietary drivers, fix xorg.conf AGAIN. Fix my resolution AGAIN.
Now I'm back in my desktop, and I haven't installed Java, flash, mono (UGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH), or much of anything else.
Wubi slows it down too.
There is no single laptop model that I know of that is 100% hackintosh compatible other than the MSI Wind, and I'm not looking to purchase a toy.
If you're asking for anything 100% "hackintosh compatible" I don't know what to tell you. By 100% you mean pop DVD, install and go, no? Well, that's asking for a bit much. I have friends who have it running on dell and HP laptops all around. All took plenty of screwing around. And same goes for linux. If you can't deal with driver issues, you probably shouldn't be using linux...though you say you've used it for a long time. Are you just fed up now?
May I add that Wubi eliminates all those problems, and the slowdown is minimal. It really is, I used a wubi installation for quite a long time.
There is another option: install ubuntu with wubi, and then use LVPM.
here: http://www.linuxhaxor.net/2008/12/06/graduate-from-a-wubi-in...
It even says "Purely performance wise you won’t see much difference when you move from a wubi install to a dedicated install - considering that you have a fairly fast hard drive and that your windows partition is not heavily fragmented."
Also, you have been checking dealcatcher.com and slickdeals.net right? there are a lot of sites out there with awesome deals on laptops that you can get cheap (and reliable). I mean if the only game you're playing is EVE, you really don't need more than any discrete gfx card 2 or 3 generations old, counting from today, right?
You're correct on the gfx chip.
I've been having stability issues on my desktop that prevent me of late from using anything other than...get this...Windows XP. Everything else freezes in the install. I'd forgotten about wubi. I'll get my unix fix that way.
Make no mistake, I'm not comfortable with the control Apple exerts over the hardware and software.
EDIT: Btw, Windows 7 is very nice if you use windows on a regular basis. Very fast on my 14" Dell 1.4 GHz Celeron 1GB Radeon 9000.
My work machine is a nx9420, with 17" screen and full size keyboard. I like it. We've had some problems around the office with lesser models, but several engineers have the nx9420, and I've not heard any complaints or problems.
It's $1229.99 (1179.99 after $50 rebate) at Amazon.
Personal testimonial: I own a G4 Powerbook that I bought about 5 years ago, and a MacBook Pro that I acquired about three years ago. Both work really well, and their longevity has been more than worth the price tag. My Powerbook still runs Halo flawlessly on medium settings. Any time I've had a problem with either, I've gone to an apple store and they've fixed any and all problems I've had.
$1750 including 13" screen with LED backlight, and one of those Intel solid-state disks. Believe the hype, they are ridiculously fast. The machine is dead silent when the unfortunately loud fan isn't running.
Ubuntu 8.10 Intrepid supported most hardware out of the box, aside from a nasty bug in the wifi support that will be solved in a kernel update, hopefully soon. No support for the fingerprint scanner and possibly the webcam, I haven't tried it.
Sager is essentially rebranding machines made by a Taiwanese company called Clevo, and cater mostly to highly technical users. Most tech support won't ask you to open up the back panel and reset the CMOS battery yourself before RMAing (true story), and I like that.
http://forum.notebookreview.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1017 is a big hub of information.
One thing I would watch out for, Intel VT is not yet enabled in the mainline BIOS. Clevo just recently enabled it, and Sager has yet to get their rebranded BIOS in stock yet. However, one BIOS flash will fix this.
You are right that there is going to be a big price drop, though. Samsung will have an Intel competitor with larger capacity on the market soon, and that's just the beginning.
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac
look, mac is about the hardware. it's superior hardware. run whatever OS you want on top of it, the hardware is the best in the industry, there just isn't any comparison.
Anyway, I love my XPS m1330, and I picked up the 3GB RAM/250GB HDD/dedicated graphics version for $500 just over a year ago. If you get it on sale, it's excellent value.
Also: yes the M1330 is okay, and if you get it refurb/on-sale the dedicated graphics model is respectable, but bleurgh. Dell's build-quality makes me sick to my stomach.
Shut the fuck up. I bet you're lying your ass off. Computers are designed not to shock people. This is why I'm starting to steer towards enterprise as opposed to consumer market: making products for regular folks just isn't worth it because of little lying bitches like you.
Am I suing? hahahah, fuck no. That shit is funny as hell more than anything, I don't like dozing off to a movie in bed with the laptop...shifting a leg, then getting woke the fuck up.
And yes, I recommended another Dell because why judge every Dell by your one experience? I've had plenty of dodgy Macbook experiences but I still recommend them.
I don't want Mac OS X because of the appearance. I want it because:
My 3d acceleration will always work. My sound will always work. My resolution will display properly. Shit won't break FREQUENTLY when I upgrade software. Shit won't break FREQUENTLY when I upgrade "os" versions. There's non-trash software available for Mac OS X. (Textmate, darkroom, etc) Media will playback without complaint, hassle, or copyright-related zealotry. If I plug in a second monitor, it will just work. No config file editing, no bullshit. Just work.
This may sound slightly crazy.... but you might want to try a PC with windows.
You're on a budget, play EVE, do some .net, and don't care about UI. You could dual boot some sort of linux (hell if you hate upgrades so much, then just install slackware and stop updating your kernel. if it aint broke don't break it) for whatever *nix shit you need to do, and the rest...all work. You want instant compatibility with about EVERYTHING. Okay man, Windoze seems to suit you well.
;) and don't forget AVG antivirus. It's a dangerous world out there!
However, I happen to rather like GNU tools and the unix-style shell environment (bash).
Windows doesn't offer either, and it isn't conducive to contributing my time to an open source project either.
Back to the hardware: I keep jumping between the two. I wish I could just run Ubuntu on a Mac, but I absolutely need Adobe software for work: our designers as well as business people use Fireworks and Photoshop all the time, so I gotta be able to read and modify those files, so I'm trying to bear with OSX/Finder... Ughh.
I am also a photography nut and the situation with laptop LCDs is grim right now: the total degradation compared to what we've had 2-3 years ago. I don't know a single laptop manufacturer who offers 16.7 million colors on a laptop LCD... So if you pay any attention to LCD quality, I don't think you'll be happy with anything.
But it's either Thinkpads or Macs, as always. There aren't anything else out there. DELL makes the nice Latitude series, but as always, they couldn't resist the urge of saving a few dollars and opted for the cheapest touchpad possible, rendering the machine useless: that ALPS junk just doesn't work.
Then again I got this laptop on a research grant...
So it's really easy to set up and easy to use, once you get used to the oddities (command Q...). It's basically a BSD, so you get Bash and Python and gcc and Vim etc.
However, I'm starting to discover while it is Unix, it's got its problems. On Ubuntu, everything is just an apt-get away. I can check out bug reports on launchpad and get unstable fixes, and not have to wait for an update from the Apple gods. On OSX, you need to use fink or darwinports, which isn't integrated with the OS (anyone said Apple gcc vs fink gcc?). Apple just likes doing things its own way, like rewriting config files for you (even though you edited them manually), having obscure config options (.MacOSX/environment.plist???).
So as much as I enjoy the interface, I think my next machine will be some sort of Thinkpad + Ubuntu, for all that brown themed ugliness :)
(oh, and I swear the white macbook scratches and scuffs the second you take it out of the box, get a black one or a pro.)
I didn't know the situation was that hairy with the ports on mac os x. From the way others spoke of macports and fink, it had that same apple 'just works' going on.
But OS X is nice, if only Ubuntu and Linux in general had the drivers, the overall polish, better menus (System Preferences on OS X are nice, on gnome they are a dog's breakfast) and dropped the ugly brown theme...
I think I'll stick to Mac laptops and Linux desktops and enjoy the best of both worlds :)
Laptops are like cars - they depreciate the most in the first year or two. Go for a corporate laptop just off the refresh cycle.
- IBM build quality - fast enough as a decent backup to a desktop - runs windows in vmware for testing, .net apps - Ubuntu just works - good size, weight - Costs approximately laptop: $350 + LCD $300
Alternately I bought my daughter an MSI Wind with Suse (switched to Ubuntu) and I find myself using it quite frequently. Very light, great build quality + great screen.(Also Mac Compatibility now with the Realtek 8187SE drivers).
No, don't go for the plastic refurbs, even it saves you some bucks. In the long run you'll be much much happier.
Dell 600m ... I used to live in the same dorm with a guy owning such a machine back in college. Things impressed me include:
- key caps kept falling out while typing
- hot enough to burn your hands in summer (turned out to be very useful in winter, though)
- extremely noisy fan
- battery recalled due to possibility to explode (Sony's fault, as I remember)