Personally I never found myself using my NFC payment watch. It felt like if I was venturing far enough to the store, I'm just going to bring my phone with me anyways. I wonder if this differs for areas that don't get as much suburban sprawl.
I use NFC payments on my watch all the time, even though I have my phone and card in my pocket. Tapping my watch is just easier than digging into my pockets and/or opening my wallet app on my phone.
i like you use NFC via watch way more than by Phone. I don't wanna take out my phone all the time, i'd like to look at my phone screen less and less as time goes on.
I personally don't use NFC payment at all. I just can't see the utility in it. If I leave the house I have my wallet, and I find it easier to take my card out of my wallet than to fiddle with NFC on my phone.
That's fascinating to me, because many times I've tried to do that it's an exercise in frustration. Terminals don't always have the sensor in the same spot, phones sometimes don't register the connection, and so on. Maybe things work better in the UK?
It can be a bit difficult, particularly now that some phones are getting more demanding about re-authorising before it will go through. Tap-try to get fingerprint scanner working-tap again is a much less fluid procedure than tap-go.
The position thing is just something you get used to. There's not that many reader models in active use and most of them are pretty good about marking where the nfc reader is these days.
Sometimes I leave the house with only my phone. Why carry two things when one thing will do fine for a quick trip? Its my car keys, my credit card, my transit pass, etc.
I've been moving towards using NFC payments for activating gas pumps as those readers still have you fully insert your card exposing the full mag strip.
Its also often faster for me to just tap my phone than to take my wallet out, pull out the specific card I'm wanting to use to pay, tapping/inserting that card, putting that card back, and then putting my wallet back. Instead my phone which still has a touch unlock is already unlocked before I take it out of my pocket and ready to be tapped and then put back in my pocket.
I can't say I relate - for one thing I don't have any of those things on my phone (except payment), but also I don't want them on my phone. We put way too much on them already, imo. But regardless, I always have wallet, phone and keys any time I leave the house. It doesn't really take effort to bring them, and that way I won't need them.
The chip inside claims to support Bluetooth Low Energy, Bluetooth mesh, NFC, Thread and Zigbee. Maybe someone can hack together a payments app using the NFC?
You can't really, unless you get involved in the financial systems afaik. It's not just some open thing that anybody can implement; there's a chain of trust involved and for good reason.
Tbf I want a ring to do it. Samsung execs screwed up bad when they released the galaxy ring not only without nfc payments but also for that horrendous price. What a joke, now the big boy companies are proving that once you ditch engineers for suits enshittification begins.
The Nordic nRF52840[1] SoC on which these are based support not only Bluetooth 5.4 but also Thread, Zigbee, and 802.15.4. These three standards are becoming commonplace in the home automation space. Has any thought been given to how the new Pebble devices could utilize these protocols?
Is it actually open source though? The repository description may be outdated then, but it currently says this:
> This is the latest version of the internal repository from Pebble Technology providing the software to run on Pebble watches. Proprietary source code has been removed from this repository and it will not compile as-is. This is for information only.
This just hasn't been updated since it was forked from the initial OSS release from Google, I've started a discussion on the firmware Discord to update it.
Pretty sure those different radio stacks do not run very well in parallel or if they do, they'd likely start to starve the rest in terms of resources needed.
The nRF52840 is not the most performant, I would've really liked if they had chosen a SoC, like the nRF5340, with more RAM or cores for this reason amongst others.
There are similar devices (i.e. SiLabs) that allow multi-protocol use with the radio (I would expect Nordic to have a similar feature set), tho yes, you're right the resource issue would be a major limitation.
The Core Time 2 mentions heart-rate monitoring. Have you considered also adding an oximeter?
The comparison chart, under "sensors", doesn't mention the compass under the Core Time 2; does the Core Time 2 drop the compass? A 3D magnetometer seems like a useful sensor for orientation purposes.
Is there a light sensor, to allow automatically disabling the backlight when there's enough ambient light and enabling it when there isn't?
You mention "Standard Pebble charger" for both; I'm guessing that that isn't USB-C?
> This week, the US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit upheld the previous verdict of the Patent Trial and Appeal Board that concluded all three of AliveCor’s patents were unpatentable. This is generally the outcome when courts conclude that patents are either obvious or too generic to enforce.
The case over the oximeter functionality is still ongoing, but with luck it'll go the same way.
Yes, it looks like Apple "won" their reciprocal patent cases against Masimo but basically got $250 for it, and no injunction. The case against Apple is still blocking them from selling watches with oximetry.
I think the article is referencing two different cases, and the ones invalidated don't seem related to oximetry, I'm not sure what happened with the oximetry one though.
It looked like it was not just the oximeter but the arrangement of the sensors and the fact that they fist approached Masimo with a licensing deal but then canceled and hired engineers from Masimo instead....
Ah, when it said "standard Pebble charger" I incorrectly assumed it was a charging port, rather than something like pogo pins. What's on the back of the watch seems pretty reasonable.
What are the dimensions (length and width) of both models? I'm trying to decide if the Time would be too big for my taste, and I'm having a hard time trying to picture what the increased screen diagonal size translates to.
Discontinued, but young for Garmin devices and still available if you're willing to pay irrational amounts of money. It doesn't make audio calls out, but can receive audio messages (to Bluetooth headphones) and send/receive "emergency" text messages either to the Garmin emergency response center (sends a helicopter to your location, if required) or by SMS with a few canned messages or tediously entered custom messages to to a predefined, pre-approved set of emergency contacts, as described here:
With the Garmin emergency contacts system, you can set up arbitrary messages to send to your emergency contacts. One of mine is "I'm OK, but need you to come pick me up".
Excited for this release! Have you heard from Intel yet? “Core 2 Duo” was the name of one of their processors in the early days of multicore on a single package.
Any ideas what the screen refresh rate is going to be at this point? All the screenshots don't have time that includes seconds, and having a watch face that can update at least every second would be a requirement for me.
(I know e-ink displays can have fast refresh rates, like the 60Hz / fps Daylight computer - but that may not be cost effective / battery efficient here?)
What is the impact on battery life to have the screen update every second, versus every minute? Will it be possible to have the HR display, on faces that include it, rate-limited to achieve better battery life?
One of the nice things about Amazfit watches was that I could dial down the HR polling and get better battery life that way.
I think it's a little bit more. I don't know if I've ever measured it. You can definitely see it in battery life though. Using a watch face that only updates every minute will give you longer, better life.
6 months from announcing rePebble (Jan '25) to shipping your first units (July '25) seems like a quick turnaround for a compact consumer electronics device. Curious to know if these first units are closer to a white label of existing hardware or more of a JDM model.
Side note - I got the first pebble through the kickstarter pre-orders in my first year out of high school. Seeing something so novel was definitely a contributor to me switch from CS to Mech E and working in the consumer electronics space now. Thanks for making cool and interesting things :)
Hey, this is pretty slick! I'm not into smart wearables myself, but if I change my mind (or if I have to recommend one to family or friends) I know where to look!
Question: does either of the model have NFC capabilities, or is there any plans to add this feature in the future? I am looking specifically for a way to pay contactless with Graphene OS (which does not support NFC payments because Google does not want to).
This is what I'm most interested in. My only hope at the moment is for Apple to revive the iPhone mini -- even if they only refresh it every 3-5 years! I'm so bummed I'll be 'forced' to upgrade from my 12 mini later this year for mostly camera and battery reasons, but oh how I wish an iPhone 17 mini was on the horizon.
Any chance to open up support and reparability for old pebbles? For example, run the newly open OS on old hardware or source parts for old pebbles, like batteries for pebble time ;)
The original pebble was almost entirely dependent on it's connection with the android/ios app. Given the increase in onboard processing capabilities, are there any plans to allow for a more standalone experience?
As an iPhone+AW (S6) user, I consider the two devices married, perhaps even sharing the same mind. Almost everything that I can do with one is instantly and transparently mirrored on the other.
I can still leave my phone at home, and since I don't have a mobile connection on the watch (intentionally), it means I'm truly and fully offline - but I get to keep many features. I can listen to music (direct connection to BT headphones), tick items off the shopping list, pay for stuff, look up my schedule, etc. Some things could work offline where they currently don't (e.g. weather, maps/public transport), but the caching/syncing is overall surprisingly decent.
Unfortunately, it's all using private APIs, no third party watch has the same access, and you can't e.g. pair the AW with an iPad. But otherwise I think it should be the golden standard (perhaps DMA could get Apple to open up the APIs).
I ordered one, with no experience although like the story and heard about the original.
One very frustrating concern - the warranty. This is $255+ for a device that is only good for 3 million seconds. Would it be possible to arrange replacement at cost after 2 years?
I have no reason to think that it will not work well for 2 years, but I am not prepared to guarantee that in a warranty. That would be taking on too much risk as a small company.
Your explanation is reason enough to cancel. I have experienced enough hardware fails the day after the warranty to avoid purchasing anything that I do not consider disposable. I still have my Vector watch which suffered the same fate as Pebble. I am curious about the risk of a "at cost" replacement. I have avoided buying a FitBit to replace my existing FitBit because their warranty is also limited to "one year" which is basically Wearable as a Service.
> curious about the risk of a "at cost" replacement
You can't tell consumers the raw manufacturing cost because people act weird when they are told it: they usually assume the "markup" is profits. They assume that they're getting ripped off because most people don't understand development costs or overheads and they always argue that any profit is too much. This problem can't be fixed.
Apart from the risk of scammers buying a watch to sell, saying it is broken, getting a replacement at cost and the scammer steals the markup/profit.
You can maybe think of ways to make it work, but they are likely to have excessive support costs or other hidden costs for the manufacturer or consumer.
Hey, I completely agree and I also suffer from this same bias: it's ruining me from enjoying stuff that I would like to buy but in the end I just give up because it feels that any profit is a scam.
What kind of resource can I study for me to understand and accept other people making profits?
I think I would like to be able to answer the following two questions:
1. what percentage of this object price is net profit?
2. is that percentage a "fair" proportion?
but atm, I don't have a "scientific" way to respond to those questions so I usually go with my gut, or do whatever other people in my circle do (which is not ideal and I'd like to change)
When you set pricing for a product, profit is a goal. You don't know how many devices will be returned, whether the device or its marketing will attract lawsuits, or whether you'll be able to sell all the devices at asking price.
You only know the actual profit margins much later, after you have sold the devices and seen them last through their warranty period.
If you'd like to minimize excess profit, take note of which products seem overpriced compared to their peers. Traditionally, anything Apple makes is a prime example. For a non-tech example, look at disposable alkaline batteries. Rayovac has been owned by Energizer since 2018 and their batteries have become increasingly comparable over time, yet Rayovac batteries are much less expensive than comparable Energizer batteries. The difference? Mostly marketing and profit margin, at this point.
Maybe reframing it can help you. You want the people to make money who produce the things/content you want to use and consume. It serves you as well as them.
It is so weird we talk about caring about an invisible variable that is actually irrelevant.
In theory we should only look at the price and judge whether our expected benefits are likely to exceed that price. And we get distracted by measuring things in $, when what really matters is our benefits which can't be measured in $.
We are also distracted by ideals of fairness (a foolish goal in a business transaction) and zero-sum thinking (am I getting ripped off?)
I don't mind spending money on quality. What I hate is the information gap, and the costs of having to learn how to judge quality myself (because price is no proxy measure). I am distrustful of so many biased signals, plus so many other people's opinions are either unhelpful or influenced.
Mostly we each just fall back on an A versus B heuristic. I find it absolutely mad that the world works at all.
And an answer: look at the bad buying decisions made by others, and learn from their mistakes. I watch my father with money to spare, he wastes 2 hours to save $1, or he avoids spending money on something that would benefit his life or the life of someone he cares for, or he won't buy a Toyota because he hated their adverts once, or he keeps buying a Nissan even after being burnt by a severe costly design flaw.
This is a DIY watch for enthusiasts. It gives you a head start versus building one yourself. And you can for sure use it as-is and with pre-made apps. But don't expect it to be a mass market consumer product. Look elsewhere. The website clearly highlights this too.
I remember that my Pebble 2 (HR) over time (pun intended) would develop play around the rubber button area especially on the right side. Eventually the rubber covering the buttons would break off. This was common to the point people were making 3d-printed replacement parts.
See https://help.rebble.io/pebble-2-buttons/
What's the expected longevity of the buttons this time around, and will you have replacement parts available ?
I want to get a smartwatch that has enough functionalities to run a time tracker app with the purpose of not having to carry a phone most of the time. The existing ones are all WearOS or Apple watch, neither of which can be used in a freedom-preserving way. Would it be possible to write time tracking apps for these watches?
No questions but a comment: I rarely get emotionally attached to devices, especially since I have to handle a lot of fancy hardware for work and it gets old quickly. However, there are a few pieces of technology like my Walkman or my Thinkpad X61t that I really liked and was sad to have to let go when their time had come. The Pebble is another one of those devices for me and I'm quite happy that I won't have to it let go for a lot longer that I thought thanks to your new project. Thanks. :-)
You mention only producing a limited quantity, but do you have any plans to do a second batch next year? I know that knowing the future is impossible and that you thus can't make any promises, but are you at least hoping to be able to make more batches in the future?
I can't spend $225 right now, and by next month I'm guessing the pre-orders will already have blown way past your production quantity ^^
I've preordered the Core Time 2, I'm so incredibly excited that you've resurrected Pebble like this!
My only hope is that you can bring the Time Round back in some form: Mine is unfortunately dead, and they're very difficult to purchase even second hand these days! It was the single best smartwatch I've ever owned and used
Thank you for making this happen! My family and friends are sick of my decade-long attachment to my pebble steel by now, haha.
Any chance the particular extra color for the metal one could be an actual metal color? My pebble steel with the metal link band was a great combination of stylish and functional. I never really liked the look of any of the later models so even when I bought them I always went back to my pebble steel. I went ahead and pre-ordered the new metal one and I suppose I’ll go for black if I have to but I really hope you come out with a stainless steel or silver color.
Also what’s the watchband compatibility? Will this work with the original pebble bands or with standard watch bands or something new and proprietary?
> Also what’s the watchband compatibility? Will this work with the original pebble bands or with standard watch bands or something new and proprietary?
It says it works with standard 22mm watchbands, so it seems like you can just put on any 3rd party band you like.
I think I am not exactly the intended audience for these devices right now, so my comment will be a bit general. I don't want "a geeky alternative to apple watch" (or an apple watch, for that matter), I basically want Garmin Forerunner 955 alternative that won't keep my data hostage. There are many things I hate about Garmin watches (which I buy nevertheless), but I can forgive almost all of them except that one. I want my data to be bulk-exportable via open API, and not it some raw .fit format (because they have to comply with GDPR after all), but as a first-class feature, that tries to satisfy a customer by exporting any data it produces in any (realistic) format that customer wants. (I assume you are familiar with other wearables, since this is your domain, but just in case: GDPR forces them to make the data they record directly exportable, but they won't willingly do it for anything that is "processed data", so I can backup my HR history, but not the data they use to make these "sleep phases" graphs, and I can only manually export relatively useless .csv summaries for a given date.)
In short, I really want to stop giving my money to Garmin. But I don't want to compromise on quality of the data being recorded. What are your thoughts on that market?
Can you tell us more about the touch screen? Is it only taps or will it support interactions using drag gestures too? How good is the accuracy, how many different simultaneous interaction surfaces can there realistically be?
Is there an emulator available somewhere where one can start prototyping an app with tap support?
Not sure if you’ll see this but I’l love to understand - why the slightly weird (to me) differentiation between the two models’ sensors? One has heart rate (which might be considered almost fundamental for smart watches today), the other has magnetic/barometric sensors (which are very nice to have when out and moving)… but neither has both? Is the core 2 duo a “geeky” watch and the other one a “premium” product? I assume the latter also doesn’t support JTAG fiddling around, is that a philosophical choice or more of an engineering time/resource constraint? Thanks in any case, these devices are definitely quite tempting!
(I’m here from 1 day after my comment) Btw I partially found an answer to the first question from the AMA on Reddit - the sensors on the duo were a kind of thanks to the person who helped design it.
I ordered a watch and I’m looking forward to making apps for it but I’m more excited at the prospect of making apps for a truly open phone with an eink display and 20x battery life. I think you have enough of a following now to attempt a small run of PebbleOS phones.
I know I’m not the only one and whatever gaps in applications you have aren’t as large as you think and can be filled in by the large passionate community you have fostered.
(and I wouldn’t worry about other attempts that have come
before you. Before Breaking Bad, studios told Vince Gilligan that Weeds already existed.)
A few, not sure HN will format this correctly so my bad if these get mushed together:
* The originals used Sharp MiP but advertised them as "e-paper" do your new models use MiP LCD (or similar) or actual "e-paper" ie "e-ink" (electrostatic capsules).
* Pebble time round 2?!?!
* The touchscreen - this is an issue I had on my Galaxy watch including the bezel rotating as well. Are there efforts to pevent the touchscreen from inadvertently doing things when I'm resting one arm against the other? For Galaxy watch I had to switch off bezel rotation/touch screen waking the watch & only allow buttons, because it would constantly wake up when I had my arms crossed/resting position.
* The backlight, is it backlit or front-lit? I suppose this more relates to if it's genuine capsule e-paper, then it would be nice to be front-lit.
the option to pair with an external gps would be better all round, apart from having a separate thing to carry. i have a garmin glo 2 that i pair to my android when doing openstreetmap stuff, and its something that you would barely notice in your pocket or clipped onto a backpack
I'm very tempted to order one, but I made a similar decision recently. I got rid of my Apple Watch and replaced it with a cheap wrist heart rate monitor that can connect to a phone, but doesn't need to (and I didn't). I wear it at the gym and that's it. That's all smart watches ever were for me, and if this isn't what Pebble is going for, it sounds like I should pass.
Though I will be keeping an eye on them incase my needs change. I hope they do well and stay true to their ethos, and avoid trying to chase or become the Apple Watch.
Maybe I skimmed too quickly, are there no size/dimensions published? Seems the display size is there, and the strap width, but no other details as far as I can tell.
It's great to see PebbleOS making a comeback! Regarding the questions about NFC payments and GPS, these would definitely be valuable features to consider for future models. The demand is clearly there, and it would make the watches more competitive with other smartwatches on the market.
As a Pebble fan I'm sad to say I'm a little bit disappointed. I love the pebble ethos but I think the design for the Core Time 2 is a step back in terms of style compared to the final Pebble options. I rocked an OG Pebble and it was nerdy in a way that I didn't mind at the time, but now with smartwatches being so common and having so many cheap and feature packed options with multi-day battery life I think the styling matters a lot more. Pebble in particular could have a big advantage here with the reflective display since you can show a lot of personality in the always-on watch face without it being distracting, but I think you would need a more minimal and sleek body to make that a selling feature.
As it is I find the pricing to be a hard sell given how many features you are losing compared even to cheap fitness bands e.g. lots of advanced health tracking, NFC payments. I applaud Eric on self-funding the project and I'm sure the risk and volume questions there are contributors to the cost.
All that said, I may still pick up a duo because there really isn't anything like a Pebble and I would really like this to be a success so that we can see lower prices, more styles, and an even more awesome community at some point in the future.
I don't think that this should be trying to compete head-on with existing smartwatches on styling. And for the purposes of a hackable device, a larger screen seems like a selling point. Also, the larger screen makes touchscreen features more usable.
Agreed with respect to size and the touchscreen which I do think is a great addition. I just think something that's more of a continuation of the Time series designs would be better fitting for a $200+ option. The Time 2 body which would have had the exact same screen would be fine by me.
For what it's worth, I'm also a Pebble fan and I love the styling of these watches. I always thought that the original style looked much nicer than the later, "more stylish" designs. So I think this is just a case where they can't please everyone, and are trying to stick to what people originally liked (or perhaps their own design tastes).
Why does the Core 2 Duo not have a heart rate monitor (which I think my Pebble 2 had) and why does the Core Time 2 not have the barometer and compass?
It makes it really difficult for me to decide which to get.
Also, I have a small preference for the design of the original Pebble Time 2 over the Core Time 2 ...
Very much agree. I want to go take this on a hike in the wilderness. I want a compass and a heart rate monitor. Barometer would be nice but I could take or leave.
This would be nice, but for me I'd never go hiking without my iPhone (especially since they now have satellite-based messaging). I assume there was a tradeoff here, and even if it was just a bit more battery I probably would have to agree with ditching these bits.
That's a fair point. My phone has a compass, so I can always look at a compass there. Not having it on the watch is just an inconvenience. My phone isn't a heart monitor.
It's kind of weird segmentation, but, given neither has GPS, I wonder how many people who'd seriously consider buying one of these really care about having a compass & barometer. Are those often important features to someone who doesn't care about GPS?
I had an old Suunto from before they went to crap, by far my favourite function was vertical speed, and it relied only on the accelerometer (the watch had GPS, but turning it on killed battery life). I still tried a couple of newer models but they removed that function.
It would be nice to track elevation change/stairs climbed during hiking, even if you don't care about GPS. I'll probably hang onto my old Garmin for exercise though, so this is sorta moot for me. Mostly it was just surprising to see that the pricier one was not a superset of the cheaper one.
Having a compass and a barometer could be a "happy accident" of already having an all in one sensor that does all that things.
The compass could be easily related to an accelerometer used for detecting watch position (a function commonly used in smartwatches to power on the screen on certain positions that suggest you're looking at it) or detecting "steps".
Not so sure about where could you also get the barometric pressure sensor...
The barometer is "nice to have". The compass is non-negotiable. It is extremely useful once you get used to remembering that you have one. Example: you have arrived at a train station in a new city. You have planned your route - you need to catch a bus from a stop on the west side of the station. You alight on the platform and there are multiple exits - you are completely disoriented. Turn left or right?
For sure, barometers are useful, I'm an avid backpacker and make use of the one in my watch for sudden weather changes and altitude, but if I'm buying a $150+ smartwatch to take backpacking, I just wouldn't really consider one without GPS.
Personally I try to disable GPS in my smartphone when hiking unless I need to check the maps — I prefer to have my communication device not dead when I need it, and modern smartphones are terrible with battery life
> This thread is full of people complaining how these aren't like their preferred watches
Which is funny to me because that's explicitly the point.
> These watches are not made for everyone. We want to be upfront with you about what to expect.
It's probably the most frustrating part of smartwatches. Everyone has a different list of mandatory features, and few seem to accept that their list isn't universal. Unlike phones where just about all of them have just about all the features, the smartwatch market is a wild west. It makes finding the right one for you a lot of work, and it's understandably disappointing when a watch checks all but one or two of your "must have"s.
The thing that really frustrates me right now about this is that between the two watches, basically all of my boxes are ticked, but some of those boxes are mutually exclusive between the watches.
When a product has two price points, like this, it's usually expected that the more expensive one is strictly "better" than the cheaper one in some ways. That isn't the case here, and it makes everything more difficult. Most of us are conditioned to look at the more expensive version, and say "are these extra features worth $X extra" and decide that way. With these watches, I have to try to think about whether I would use a compass or heart rate monitor more.
>unlike phones where just about all of them have just about all the features
I knew my preferences were niche, but I didn't think they were that niche. There hasn't been a phone with even half my ideal feature list (that works in the US) in probably close to a decade, and even if I abandon my more niche "nice to haves", there are essentially no new phones, and that's even before I add in that I'd really like it to be relatively repairable. And yes, there _used_ to be phones that had my entire feature list, so it's not a completely crazy list. It's just that phone makers have converged a pretty standard feature list with not too many companies coloring outside the lines. If you want that particular feature list, then sure, everyone has "all the features", but there is a whole universe of additional features that phones could (and some did) have, that they no longer do.
Would you mind sharing what those features are? About the only things I can think of that some phones used to have, but now largely don't, is removable battery, IR blaster, headphone jack, or keyboard. I can understand missing those features, even though they don't particularly matter to me.
I'm surprised you mentioned IR blaster, which is on my list, but I consider the second most niche one after FM tuner, which my current phone actually does have. Here's my list from what I consider most reasonable to most niche:
Small size. I'm a 6'2" male, so my hands are probably pretty well above the population average. Maybe it's because I'm a lefty, but I hate how big phones have gotten. It makes one hand use almost impossible, and if it's that hard for me, I have to assume that most people have just given up on even trying. I'd really prefer a sub 5.5" phone screen (part of me wants to say even smaller, but it's been so long since I've used a phone that small, that I don't even know anymore what my ideal size/lower limit is).
Headphone jack. Relatively self explanatory, imo.
No camera cutout. I hate them. I'd literally rather give up the screen real estate and have a bigger top bezel (although, see my point 1, I obviously value screen size less than most consumers). Luckily in Android you can just turn off the screen around the cutout in developer options, but I'd prefer to just not have the screen there. At least on my current phone, it still wastes battery (this might be a non-issue on OLED screens) and will register touches, preventing proper touch recognition elsewhere (this is related to the difficulty of single handed use, would probably be mitigated on a smaller phone)
SD card slot. Maybe the easiest of this list to actually still find? It seems like a decent number of phones these days have a spot for it in in the SIM card tray. I've heard that the reason companies don't include it is that a lot of SD cards are trash and wear out pretty quickly. This could lead to consumers losing data and being mad at the phone manufacturer. In my opinion, this is understandable, but still a bad reason.
IR Blaster/FM Tuner. I consider these two together. They are both pretty niche, and are "nice to haves". Mostly because I want my phone to be as much of a general purpose communications device as possible. The times when these are helpful are infrequent, but in those rare times, extremely nice to have.
Replaceable battery actually isn't on my list, mostly because I consider it part and parcel of "repairability", which (maybe nonsensically) seems like a different category. And, for me personally, battery degradation actually hasn't been a problem for phones. The two biggest things I would want to be able to repair are charging ports (this would be mitigated with wireless charging) and screen repair. These are, for me at least, the two most likely parts to break/wear out, and in my opinion they should both be cheap and easy to repair. Of course, if it was easy to do those two, you'd get battery replacement almost by default, and I certainly wouldn't be mad about easier to swap batteries.
Yeah I took a gander at GSMarena and your feature set hasn't been made past March of 2019 or so, which is a shame. I liked my Sony Xperia Compact, so if there ever was a pixel phone of that size I'd get one.
The issue I'm seeing is many people were expecting the watch that was advertised in the old Kickstarter.
The "pebble 2" from the Kickstarter -> "core 2 time"
The "pebble 2 time" is nowhere to be found.
(The pebble 2 time was supposed to be the same underlying hardware, but a much classier case, slightly different form factor). They look much more like a normal watch, versus the pebble style feels like a geek toy.
I still get compliments on my pebble time round to this day!
I’d buy one! With the Bluetooth power use improvements mentioned for today’s watches, the tiny Round battery ought to be good for a week or more now, right?
My main complaint about Apple Watch is the size, so a very slim watch might get me to switch back. Have a Time in a drawer somewhere, but I assume its battery is shot by now.
I'm hesitant to order because I much preferred the designs of the PTS and PTR. And I had a PTS for years. I hope you do consider it in the future, as I am having a hard time pulling the trigger purely for design reasons, the rest is great.
I don't understand this in the slightest. There's no advantage whatsoever to a round screen, but tons of disadvantages. Why not make your phone screen round? Why not make your computer screen round? Your TV?
Please, Core, resist the temptation to enshittify yourself with another useless round screen.
Because the larger market of watch buyers end up buying way way more round watches than square or other shapes, thus a lager market of buyers and prices are probably lower. I don't really care though. It doesn't matter for these kinds of low sales boutique devices. I ordered one ;-)
The pebble time round was the stylish version of the Pebble Time, you lost battery life and a smaller display but you got a significantly thinner sleeker watch.
I daily drive the pebble time, but wear my round for dates or when I want to be a bit more stylish. I still get compliments on it to this day.
Who did the product design (cad, picking components, etc) for both of these watches? Is this in house? (shout them out!) or did you work with an outside firm, and if so which one?
I'd like to hack around with the HR sensor, so I pre-ordered the Time 2.
What are good resources for looking into building an app for it? I see the OS is hosted here https://github.com/pebble-dev/pebble-firmware But most pebble-related google searches bring up ancient material and I'm not sure what's still relevant.
The ancient material is relevant because nothing has changed since the company went out of business :) I'm wearing a Pebble right now and I was able to update one of my favorite watchfaces using a docker container of the old Pebble SDK. The blog post says there will be an updated SDK released with the new watches.
I'm pleased the pricing is so low. I did some math and if they're making 10k of these (not clear if that's each or all together), there's not a ton of money to be made.
Assuming $100 average profit, that's a $2M for 20k watches. Given the work opportunities that the founder and other employees have, that's not a lot of money for them to make in a year, and it comes with significant risk. Basically seems like this is a passion project, for which I am very grateful!
$100 profit on a $150 watch would be crazy. Rest of the post seems made up too. I don't know where these numbers are coming from. I'm genuinely confused.
I was using a blended average of the $150 and $225 watches. Also, it sounds like some of the components for the $150 watch were literally left over from Pebble days, which means they could have gotten an amazing deal on them.
MSRP of 3x COGS is a pretty common rule of thumb for hardware. Have to leave room for distribution, software, R&D, returns, SG&A, etc. End of the day, it's probably still only 30-40% gross margin -- less than half of a good SaaS company. Hardware is (indeed!) hard.
What they call "gross profit" is not profit, by definition. It's certainly useful to track $revenue-$cost_of_goods, but you can't call that profit. People are free to use words incorrectly, but they shouldn't expect anyone else to go along with them.
Who chooses the "correct" use of words? Is it you? Wikipedia disagrees with you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_margin. Maybe you should make your own encyclopedia.
It's absolutely essential to be able to differentiate between gross profit and net profit to establish unit economics, especially as the scale of a newly founded operation may drastically change relative to some amount of fixed capex or SG&A expense.
Of course. But here we're talking about the opportunity cost of the founders and other employees so gross profit isn't as relevant. Context matters and the context here is that the founders and employees would probably have a much higher take home split amongst all of them if they were to work in the wearables division of a large company like Google or Apple.
The difference between gross profit & net profit for companies like this is largely comprised of employee & founder salaries (SG&A and R&D). That delta is literally paying for their opportunity cost. Net profit is most relevant to shareholders.
Please hire an accountant asap if you ever start a business. Things don't mean what you think they mean in accounting. You are wrong and insist you are right despite multiple people pointing it out to you.
Gross profit = sales or service revenue less the expenses directly related to producing that revenue (this does not include backoffice functions, R&D, rent, etc.)
Net profit, which is the total revenue of the business less all expenses of the business (so, this includes R&D, rent, and the "backoffice" like HR, finance, legal, etc.)
Larger businesses with multiple business segment may account for gross profit separately for each business segment, but the business only ever calculates one net profit item.
There's also unit profit, which is essentially gross profit but at the level of a single unit of goods or services (for services, a unit is usually a customer contract, for recurring services it would be each period of the contract). Unit profit is generally the revenue from that specific unit less the costs directly associated with producing that revenue. Most companies don't calculate unit profit as generally it's not meaningful unless you sell high-value items, like automobiles or planes.
Having worked in a tiny start-up-turned-company doing hardware for medical training, my biggest takeaway was that it is very slow but that it can also be very stable.
Like, yeah our margins were/are super high, and so were/are the distributors’, but once everything was spun up and running it was also very stable and predictable.
We were located on the outskirts of a 3rd tier Eastern European city and yet we were plugged right into the same global parts supply chain and capable of doing the same global distribution you could elsewhere. If you’re on to something, it’s a good time to be doing hardware. But you’re correct - 2/3 of the entire company was distribution/sales and R&D.
> Assuming $100 average profit, that's a $2M for 20k watches. Given the work opportunities that the founder and other employees have, that's not a lot of money for them to make in a year, and it comes with significant risk. Basically
Reading through the terms on the shop page, it seems they're preparing to (maybe) raise the prices at any time, and they'll ask you to pay more before shipping, if they end up raising the prices after you buy it.
Whoa didn't see this! What's the language you're referring to? I only saw the part about how either side can cancel without penalty and didn't read a threat of higher pricing into that bit.
I was excited and about to purchase one until I saw this "We might not ship the device unless you pay us more" thing. I get that the economy is very up in the air right now in the US, but sucks that seemingly ordinary businesses are losing international business because of it.
That reads to me as what they'll do if the import tariff situation changes, not if the company changes the price themselves. Which seems like a reasonable thing to say given the massive uncertainty around US economic policy at the moment.
Fair, and you're probably right. I've personally learned to be very cautious when it comes to statements like that though. There has already been additional tariffs, and since it isn't exactly defined, they could raise the price tomorrow based on that, "because it wasn't taken into account at the time" and so on.
Better to just wait until the whole drama blows over I suppose.
I think it's reasonable too, but it also means I don't want to pony up $150 now to potentially have the seller renege and (hopefully) refund me later. I can make use that $150 between then and now.
By that logic the watch is a non-essential luxury good so you probably should use the $150 you have now in a more productive manner regardless of potential futures.
I am not sure I understand you. It's true, I generally prefer not to preorder as it means I'm essentially offering an interest-free loan to a company.
Sometimes I'll do it anyway for one of two reasons: to lock in a price that may increase later, or to receive an item earlier than I would otherwise, due to excessive demand.
I'm just saying that, at least to my sensibilities, the viewpoint that leads one to be concerned about maximizing the efficiency of 150 bucks over the next 4-5 months seems incompatible with the viewpoint that it would be reasonable to spend $150 on this watch at all.
But I recognize that everyone's a snowflake, so you do you.
A lot of people on HN whine “oh I’m not picking a side” and “I just want to get on with my life” and “I’m an island what others do doesn’t affect me” and other nonsense.
Sadly the damage these people are causing by their implicit support for the end of the modern world won’t fix the problem when America realises it’s making itself poorer, history shows countries double down.
They have it very clearly written before you check out that you can receive a full refund anytime before it ships. You have to check a box saying you acknowledge this before completing your purchase.
I find what they’re doing very transparent from top to bottom. If you’re worried about it, don’t buy one. But if you’re worried they’re going to pull the rug out from under you, I don’t think you need to.
Yeah, it is transparent... that they may raise the price and undisclosed amount. There's nothing wrong with it but the terms mean I'm not interested in preordering. I'll wait until the final price is available. Why did this seem to upset people?
If you wait until the final retail price is known, it's quite likely that you won't be able to place a retail order at that time, since it's a very limited run. There will probably be a few scalpers on ebay though.
I don’t think they can legally raise the price and charge your card without communicating the adjusted price to you and letting you confirm. Someone correct me if I’m wrong on that but ultimately I think they still need you to agree to it explicitly.
It's good of them to consider this and be transparent, but I don't consider tariffs to be part of the price. The price is the amount the seller gets, not the amount they collect and remit to the government.
I think "price" is an imprecise term that could refer to the pre-tax/tariff amount or the post-tax/tariff amount. It would include shipping, if there is no other way to get the device (as is the case here).
But regardless, they're not saying they would increase the "price" (whatever that means), but just that if the tariff situation changes, then the customer will need to pay the additional tariff. This is the same as what would happen if a state increased the sales tax rate and they had to collect and remit additional sales tax. It just so happens that it's unlikely any state is going to sharply increase its sales tax in the next year, but there's a decent chance the tariff rate will jump. If the sales tax went up, I wouldn't consider that to be the company raising the price. Same for tariffs, in my book.
The difference between sales tax and a tariff is that the consumer pays the sales tax while the importer pays the tariff. In other words, I'm not presented with a "price + taxes + tariff." I'm presented with a "price + taxes" where the price is supposed to bake in the seller's costs (which may include tariffs) and a margin of profit. Likewise, if the price increases to allow for additional tariffs, I will also pay more in taxes.
And then you've got VAT, which yes it's the consumer's money that's going to paying it, but the headline price for consumers is the VAT inclusive price and the retailer (or importer, who may sometimes be a consumer) is responsible for paying.
Which means that in high-profile cases where the VAT rate is disputed, it's the retailer who is on the hook for the disputed amount. Recent examples being Greggs (a baker, who won their case, so no tax payable) and Uber (where I'm not actually sure whether it's finalised yet? But if they end up needing to pay VAT then it's going to be expensive).
Funny, aren't you USers used to not knowing what you'll pay for something because the advertised prices don't include sales taxes and administrative fees and whatever fees and service charges and tips that are not service charges?
Well in europe letting me know what the real price is only at the cash register and not when I check out the product in the store is as unusual as your problem with import duties :)
I think it may even be illegal for consumer prices. What they display or list in the contract is what you pay.
But on the other hand I'm used to paying import taxes separately when ordering something from outside the EU.
Yes, Americans don't know the exact price of the products in their cart between the 10min they put the items in their cart and when they check out. They know it will be a little more and they mentally budget for it.
But that doesn't have much to do with a price increasing weeks or months after paying for a preorder.
So you can mentally separate the price the vendor charges from taxes imposed by the state when you pick up in the store but not when ordering internationally?
Pretty much all tech purchases are implicitly international. During the last Trump administration we were madly spinning up additional manufacturing capacity in Vietnam, because the full tariffs on China, had they come into effect, would have doubled the retail price of an Oculus headset (which is a US corporation, just as in this scenario)
Haven't bought something from outside the EU in a while? They charge us at least VAT (maybe over a certain price, depending on your jurisdiction) :)
Large stores can afford to precalculate this and use a service that will handle taxes for you, small stores not so much so you may end paying it personally on receiving the package. But they can afford to precalculate it if the taxes are known in advance (usually starts at whatever your country's VAT rate is).
Now in this case, shipping to the US looks like it will be randomly taxed depending on the phase of the moon and how well Trump has slept last night, so this warning is fair. You can't expect them to absorb a 50% import tax if it's established tomorrow.
> Haven't bought something from outside the EU in a while? They charge us at least VAT (maybe over a certain price, depending on your jurisdiction) :)
Sure, and as you also seem familiar with, you know it's pretty trivial to calculate yourself when you place your order :)
So far, I've never bought something internationally, then before shipping the tax laws changed enough that the toll and/or tax payment was different than I expected.
I know that the diabetic community are extremely interested on these watches. 30 days of battery life, already working support for Android APS and xDrip with these watches. What is there not to like. Put one of these to your child's wrist and they can get alerts on the glucose level easily.
Diabetics have a sensor on their bodies that speaks Bluetooth. It talks to their phones (running eg. xDrip). The phone then communicates this to the watch.
My wife is a diabetic and this kind of stuff, while it seems minimal, makes a big difference for her quality of life.
It's all about building these things by yourself. The tools are there, and Pebble used to be the first smartwatch every open source diabetic I know used (including myself).
If you're not familiar, here's a good starting point:
Oh, and you want to avoid Apple's hardware. Some of the software can only be distributed as source code, so installing them to an iOS device is not easy.
I would definitely get the color Pebble over many competing devices. I do not need fancy sport features, steps+sleep+heart rate covers all my needs, and 30-day battery life honestly sounds like a dream.
I ordered my Pebble Time during February 2015 Kickstarter for $169. Today the Core Time 2 is $225 which is the exact same price adjusted for inflation.
The DHL shipping though I remembered it was $25 and it is still $25 today
That "price rise" indicates an inflation rate of 2.9%. The average inflation rate for the last 50 years is more like 3.5%. So it totally depends on your perspective. If you've only lived through low-inflation times, then yeah 2.9% seems high.
I'm in my 50's and my reaction to the same information was "yeah, seems about right".
Are you going to sell replacement parts this time? I was immensely disappointed to see the initial watches being pretty repairable in theory, but no parts being sold. It was marketed as a tinkerer‘s device after all.
I’m wearing my Pebble Time Steel right now - and quite like it. Haven’t found anything better. It could use some better activity tracking, but the worst thing about it right now is that it doesn’t really have an iOS app (AltStore is pretty flaky). Any news on that front?
For some reason there just hasn’t been a real spiritual successor, so the revival is greatly appreciated.
> it doesn’t really have an iOS app (AltStore is pretty flaky). Any news on that front?
I thought the Pebble app still worked, using Rebble. My understanding is that they are building a new app for the new watches, if that's what you were asking about.
The only way to install the old iOS Pebble app is by sideloading via something like AltStore (or doing it manually every week). Maybe you can also still re-install it if you had it installed when it was available in the App Store but I'm not sure if that still works.
Perhaps a trademark lawyer can weigh in. My understanding is that a trademark is strictly limited to the areas (both in terms of geography and vertical) claimed in the application. This is why Apple didn't have to do battle with the Beatles until they got into the music business.
Yeah because "apple" is a common term that people might reasonably expect two businesses to use. The point of trademark law is to prevent consumer confusion.
I am not a trademark lawyer and I haven't even looked this up but if Apple made a "The Beatles Laptop" then I would hope that defence doesn't apply.
The main thing is if a consumer would be confused. I don't think consumers would be confused about an ancient Intel processor and a brand new smartwarch.
They'll be cheeky, the big dinosaur corporate will come out swinging and look bad like they always do, and they'll get a load of press in the tech websites which is their target market.
I don't think this one would necessarily work out like that - here they have (seemingly) intentionally named the watch identically to a product name that already exists, in a fairly closely related field, that they should know is most likely trademarked...
The bad press comes when it feels unfair for the big company to try and pursue action but in this case it would seem that Intel would be perfectly justified...
And I think it's brilliant: it says "ca 2010 technology, the good parts". Technically, it's not exactly correct (according to Wikipedia Core 2 was discontinued a year before the Pebble launched), but it's one of the few lasting iconic names from that era in technology that aren't Apple. RePebble playing with that reference is exactly the same pattern as xyz-90 letter combinations reminiscent of audio cassette blanks popping up all over the music industry when the 80ies revival was in bloom.
Will it eventually end in a "we got sued by Intel!" marketing gambit? Certainly a possibility. Is assume they have played through both scenarios.
Searching for 'pebble core 2 duo' already comes up with a page of results only related to the watch[1] (including this very comment thread, ironically[2].) Search engines are very good these days.
I have an original backer watch and bought one when they launched. Both stopped working within maybe 6 months and support at the time suggested I just buy another...
I am beside myself with excitement. This has been in the back of my mind 8 years, I always believed. I have never pre-ordered anything this quickly in my life.
The demo image of getting a text message about a party on your watch is an example of everything that is wrong with wearable computing. The last thing I need is more invasive notifications.
As someone who has exclusively worn a pebble since it was crowd funded, I am trilled. I love purpose built devices[0] that don't attempt to do everything. I don't need a watch that does everything, just triage notification and perform time related activities and get out of the way. Pebble has always fit that niche. The fact that I can hack on it and mold it to my needs has been icing.
I have some sincere questions on the design choices. For context, I own a pebble time (everyday wear for triaging notifications) and a polar watch (for exercise tracking). Also part of a cycling community where we swap exercise watches to try out what else is out there. I have found I always sleep in my polycarb pebble time because I forget I am wearing it - it is that unnoticeable.
1) Why limit Core 2 Duo screen to BW? Feels like a step back when the Core Time 2 will have it. Sourcing parts?
2) According to the blog, I understand the Core Time 2 is your (Eric's) dream watch, so not trying to rain on your parade but trying to reason about the audience you're catering to here. The heart rate monitor suggests that it can be used to track physical activity. But... no GPS, metal (heavy) case, and protruding sensor diminish the utility of the sensor. If you've ever run with a light watch, you'll start noticing how quickly metal watches fatigue the skin. I've slept with watches on that track my sleep (optically) and the protruding sensors always causes pressure points - similar to a pebble (heh) in the shoe. Having 30 days battery life, speaker, and better vibration make for a great gadget that doesn't need to be taken off... unless it is not comfortable.
[0]: https://www.polar.com/en/science/whitepapers Purpose built devices are optimized and companies that build they have domain knowledge. You've probably never heard of polar but they publish the science behind their features where as garmin has nice looking gear but has gimmicky features, like "body battery"
1) Yes, the hardest part of building a watch is getting a display. There is only 1 vendor and we have to use what they make. Custom displays cost $1m+ and take 18 months to build.
2) It's not a running watch. I'd recommend getting garmin if you're looking for that.
> 2) It's not a running watch. I'd recommend getting garmin if you're looking for that.
I think we are on the same page but I've communicated poorly. Why even include a heart rate sensor on a watch that is not intended for exercising in when the trade-off is sacrificing comfort and raising the complexity and cost of the design?
I acknowledge this is a niche concern/complaint but this is a niche product for a niche base of folks, I'm simply curious about why. I want this to succeed and be sustainable so I asked about the utility of the sensor and provided a counter example since it's additional raises complexity.
It is not common to wear watches for more than a few days at a time simply because there are not many whose battery will last that long. The effects of fatigue/pressure point from the sensor bump are less observed but not missing. With 30 days on wrist, I can extrapolate that fatigue will be more pronounced - so I am calling it out. I understand I am a small sample size but I have 2 watches whose battery lasts 7 days and the one without the bump is more pleasant to wear for a week between charges. To the point that I always reach for the comfort option and eventually sold off the other.
I've used exercise as a catch all for continuous monitoring of the heart. Point being, to get more utility out of a sensor, you'd have to wear it more with less interruption. 30 days without taking off a device is... Unheard of (and wicked cool!). So comfort will be more appreciated in the long term, I suspect
I've mentioned this in the above reply but I'll repeat here: It is not common to wear watches for more than a few days at a time simply because there are not many whose battery will last that long. The effects of fatigue/pressure point from the sensor bump are less observed but not missing. Majority of consumers wear Apple/Android watches that need to be recharged every day. With 30 days on wrist, I can extrapolate that fatigue will be more pronounced - so I am calling it out.
I don't use my watch for running (using a 7 year old Fitbit versa). However, I do keep it on the entire day unless it is charging. I was curious what the weight of the Time 2 was going to be (I don't see it in the specs). I just wanted to compare the weight of it to my existing device. Thanks!
On my Samsung Galaxy watch, if I get a notification from my Unifi security cameras, for example, I get a little thumbnail image appear on my watch. There's no special app on my watch, just the app on my paired Galaxy phone.
Will it do this? Or would I just get a text notification? I don't understand smart watches well enough to know how much they are doing themselves vs how much of what they do is to be a mindless projection of whatever the paired phone tells them to do.
I am not familiar with the pebble SDK or notification API it has. Smart watches usually will display whatever notification the mobile devices instructs it to display.
If you get a push notification on your mobile, I don't see a reason why pebble won't display it. The thumbnail image might be fixed but all the text content will be shown. And FWIW, the entire thing is open source so you can go in an add it, or open feature requests, etc.
The Pebble software doesn't have support for images in notifications right now. But it definitely could/should be added. And it's open source, so you could even do it yourself!
Use the Android pebble app "Notification Center" and it should be able to do that for you.
(Notification Center gives you extreme amounts of control over what to send to the watch how it gets displayed, etc. It's the reason I'm still daily wearing my pebble watches)
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[ 4.9 ms ] story [ 305 ms ] threadAny plans for a more sporty model (i.e., HR, GPS?)?
Core Time 2 has a heart rate monitor!
The position thing is just something you get used to. There's not that many reader models in active use and most of them are pretty good about marking where the nfc reader is these days.
I've been moving towards using NFC payments for activating gas pumps as those readers still have you fully insert your card exposing the full mag strip.
Its also often faster for me to just tap my phone than to take my wallet out, pull out the specific card I'm wanting to use to pay, tapping/inserting that card, putting that card back, and then putting my wallet back. Instead my phone which still has a touch unlock is already unlocked before I take it out of my pocket and ready to be tapped and then put back in my pocket.
For card, you need to get the wallet, get the card from the wallet, and then put it back.
Some people don't use wallet or put it close, because I only need wallet to pay or use loyalty card, and I can do that with my phone.
Less to carry, less to idly distract myself with.
[1] https://www.nordicsemi.com/Products/nRF52840
> This is the latest version of the internal repository from Pebble Technology providing the software to run on Pebble watches. Proprietary source code has been removed from this repository and it will not compile as-is. This is for information only.
edit: not sure they use the proprietary stack... at the very least, it looks like they're in the process of switching to a free BT stack
How are you supposed to do that?
The nRF52840 is not the most performant, I would've really liked if they had chosen a SoC, like the nRF5340, with more RAM or cores for this reason amongst others.
The comparison chart, under "sensors", doesn't mention the compass under the Core Time 2; does the Core Time 2 drop the compass? A 3D magnetometer seems like a useful sensor for orientation purposes.
Is there a light sensor, to allow automatically disabling the backlight when there's enough ambient light and enabling it when there isn't?
You mention "Standard Pebble charger" for both; I'm guessing that that isn't USB-C?
https://www.tomsguide.com/wellness/smartwatches/apple-watch-...
> This week, the US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit upheld the previous verdict of the Patent Trial and Appeal Board that concluded all three of AliveCor’s patents were unpatentable. This is generally the outcome when courts conclude that patents are either obvious or too generic to enforce.
The case over the oximeter functionality is still ongoing, but with luck it'll go the same way.
https://pharmaphorum.com/news/apple-wins-masimo-lawsuit-its-...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34360292
Seems like you did as the screens look blessedly flat!
Congrats!
I would pay an irrational amount of money for a watch that can make calls that has a very long battery life.
The closest thing to what you probably want is the Garmin Forerunner 945 LTE:
https://www.garmin.com/en-US/p/698632
Discontinued, but young for Garmin devices and still available if you're willing to pay irrational amounts of money. It doesn't make audio calls out, but can receive audio messages (to Bluetooth headphones) and send/receive "emergency" text messages either to the Garmin emergency response center (sends a helicopter to your location, if required) or by SMS with a few canned messages or tediously entered custom messages to to a predefined, pre-approved set of emergency contacts, as described here:
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2021/06/garmin-forerunner-945-de...
I really would like calling too. There's a lot of daylight between I lost my phone and need to call a cab, and send a helicopter.
Right now I have an LTE smart watch, but the battery is optimistically about 24 hours( on a good day ).
Edit: preordered!
(I know e-ink displays can have fast refresh rates, like the 60Hz / fps Daylight computer - but that may not be cost effective / battery efficient here?)
One of the nice things about Amazfit watches was that I could dial down the HR polling and get better battery life that way.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40457491
https://www.sharpsecd.com/#/memory-in-pixel-lcds-product
Side note - I got the first pebble through the kickstarter pre-orders in my first year out of high school. Seeing something so novel was definitely a contributor to me switch from CS to Mech E and working in the consumer electronics space now. Thanks for making cool and interesting things :)
It is fast - but we've done this before (many times) and know what we're doing. I've been blogging about the experience too https://ericmigi.com/blog/february-shenzhen-trip-update
Will the watch ship with a JTAG clip? Or is that coming later. Not sure if I missed the option in the store
Question: does either of the model have NFC capabilities, or is there any plans to add this feature in the future? I am looking specifically for a way to pay contactless with Graphene OS (which does not support NFC payments because Google does not want to).
Any chance to open up support and reparability for old pebbles? For example, run the newly open OS on old hardware or source parts for old pebbles, like batteries for pebble time ;)
Core Devices will publish an open source fully featured library, that anyone can use to build an open source companion app as well.
I can still leave my phone at home, and since I don't have a mobile connection on the watch (intentionally), it means I'm truly and fully offline - but I get to keep many features. I can listen to music (direct connection to BT headphones), tick items off the shopping list, pay for stuff, look up my schedule, etc. Some things could work offline where they currently don't (e.g. weather, maps/public transport), but the caching/syncing is overall surprisingly decent.
Unfortunately, it's all using private APIs, no third party watch has the same access, and you can't e.g. pair the AW with an iPad. But otherwise I think it should be the golden standard (perhaps DMA could get Apple to open up the APIs).
One very frustrating concern - the warranty. This is $255+ for a device that is only good for 3 million seconds. Would it be possible to arrange replacement at cost after 2 years?
You can't tell consumers the raw manufacturing cost because people act weird when they are told it: they usually assume the "markup" is profits. They assume that they're getting ripped off because most people don't understand development costs or overheads and they always argue that any profit is too much. This problem can't be fixed.
Apart from the risk of scammers buying a watch to sell, saying it is broken, getting a replacement at cost and the scammer steals the markup/profit.
You can maybe think of ways to make it work, but they are likely to have excessive support costs or other hidden costs for the manufacturer or consumer.
1. what percentage of this object price is net profit? 2. is that percentage a "fair" proportion?
but atm, I don't have a "scientific" way to respond to those questions so I usually go with my gut, or do whatever other people in my circle do (which is not ideal and I'd like to change)
You only know the actual profit margins much later, after you have sold the devices and seen them last through their warranty period.
If you'd like to minimize excess profit, take note of which products seem overpriced compared to their peers. Traditionally, anything Apple makes is a prime example. For a non-tech example, look at disposable alkaline batteries. Rayovac has been owned by Energizer since 2018 and their batteries have become increasingly comparable over time, yet Rayovac batteries are much less expensive than comparable Energizer batteries. The difference? Mostly marketing and profit margin, at this point.
It is so weird we talk about caring about an invisible variable that is actually irrelevant.
In theory we should only look at the price and judge whether our expected benefits are likely to exceed that price. And we get distracted by measuring things in $, when what really matters is our benefits which can't be measured in $.
We are also distracted by ideals of fairness (a foolish goal in a business transaction) and zero-sum thinking (am I getting ripped off?)
I don't mind spending money on quality. What I hate is the information gap, and the costs of having to learn how to judge quality myself (because price is no proxy measure). I am distrustful of so many biased signals, plus so many other people's opinions are either unhelpful or influenced.
Mostly we each just fall back on an A versus B heuristic. I find it absolutely mad that the world works at all.
And an answer: look at the bad buying decisions made by others, and learn from their mistakes. I watch my father with money to spare, he wastes 2 hours to save $1, or he avoids spending money on something that would benefit his life or the life of someone he cares for, or he won't buy a Toyota because he hated their adverts once, or he keeps buying a Nissan even after being burnt by a severe costly design flaw.
More reliable buttons (up to 30% longer lifetime in testing)
I can't spend $225 right now, and by next month I'm guessing the pre-orders will already have blown way past your production quantity ^^
What affect are tariffs having?
My only hope is that you can bring the Time Round back in some form: Mine is unfortunately dead, and they're very difficult to purchase even second hand these days! It was the single best smartwatch I've ever owned and used
Any chance the particular extra color for the metal one could be an actual metal color? My pebble steel with the metal link band was a great combination of stylish and functional. I never really liked the look of any of the later models so even when I bought them I always went back to my pebble steel. I went ahead and pre-ordered the new metal one and I suppose I’ll go for black if I have to but I really hope you come out with a stainless steel or silver color.
Also what’s the watchband compatibility? Will this work with the original pebble bands or with standard watch bands or something new and proprietary?
It says it works with standard 22mm watchbands, so it seems like you can just put on any 3rd party band you like.
In short, I really want to stop giving my money to Garmin. But I don't want to compromise on quality of the data being recorded. What are your thoughts on that market?
Is there an emulator available somewhere where one can start prototyping an app with tap support?
I know I’m not the only one and whatever gaps in applications you have aren’t as large as you think and can be filled in by the large passionate community you have fostered.
(and I wouldn’t worry about other attempts that have come before you. Before Breaking Bad, studios told Vince Gilligan that Weeds already existed.)
* The originals used Sharp MiP but advertised them as "e-paper" do your new models use MiP LCD (or similar) or actual "e-paper" ie "e-ink" (electrostatic capsules).
* Pebble time round 2?!?!
* The touchscreen - this is an issue I had on my Galaxy watch including the bezel rotating as well. Are there efforts to pevent the touchscreen from inadvertently doing things when I'm resting one arm against the other? For Galaxy watch I had to switch off bezel rotation/touch screen waking the watch & only allow buttons, because it would constantly wake up when I had my arms crossed/resting position.
* The backlight, is it backlit or front-lit? I suppose this more relates to if it's genuine capsule e-paper, then it would be nice to be front-lit.
* No compass or barometer on CT2?
Thank you! <3
I want to be able to track my runs.
I love the banglejs because it is hackable but the GPS was very difficult to use. But it is such a fun device to hack on.
Is that not one of Intel's trademarks from the past 20 years?
The closest mark I could find is a wordmark for INTEL CORE INSIDE DUO cancelled in 2014 due to disuse.
https://tsdr.uspto.gov/#caseNumber=78775512&caseSearchType=U...
Though I will be keeping an eye on them incase my needs change. I hope they do well and stay true to their ethos, and avoid trying to chase or become the Apple Watch.
All I see is display size and strap width there.
This is really like a cool gadget purchase impulse.
As it is I find the pricing to be a hard sell given how many features you are losing compared even to cheap fitness bands e.g. lots of advanced health tracking, NFC payments. I applaud Eric on self-funding the project and I'm sure the risk and volume questions there are contributors to the cost.
All that said, I may still pick up a duo because there really isn't anything like a Pebble and I would really like this to be a success so that we can see lower prices, more styles, and an even more awesome community at some point in the future.
I don't think that this should be trying to compete head-on with existing smartwatches on styling. And for the purposes of a hackable device, a larger screen seems like a selling point. Also, the larger screen makes touchscreen features more usable.
1: https://ericmigi.com/blog/introducing-two-new-pebbleos-watch...
This thread is full of people complaining how these aren't like their preferred watches, in terms of design, face shape, no GPS, etc.
I think this is a much more valid criticism in that their expensive flagship watch is not like their cheaper watch.
The compass could be easily related to an accelerometer used for detecting watch position (a function commonly used in smartwatches to power on the screen on certain positions that suggest you're looking at it) or detecting "steps".
Not so sure about where could you also get the barometric pressure sensor...
Most smartphones don't come with a barometer, and the compass actually needs to be fixed to the display to make sense.
Which is funny to me because that's explicitly the point.
> These watches are not made for everyone. We want to be upfront with you about what to expect.
It's probably the most frustrating part of smartwatches. Everyone has a different list of mandatory features, and few seem to accept that their list isn't universal. Unlike phones where just about all of them have just about all the features, the smartwatch market is a wild west. It makes finding the right one for you a lot of work, and it's understandably disappointing when a watch checks all but one or two of your "must have"s.
When a product has two price points, like this, it's usually expected that the more expensive one is strictly "better" than the cheaper one in some ways. That isn't the case here, and it makes everything more difficult. Most of us are conditioned to look at the more expensive version, and say "are these extra features worth $X extra" and decide that way. With these watches, I have to try to think about whether I would use a compass or heart rate monitor more.
I knew my preferences were niche, but I didn't think they were that niche. There hasn't been a phone with even half my ideal feature list (that works in the US) in probably close to a decade, and even if I abandon my more niche "nice to haves", there are essentially no new phones, and that's even before I add in that I'd really like it to be relatively repairable. And yes, there _used_ to be phones that had my entire feature list, so it's not a completely crazy list. It's just that phone makers have converged a pretty standard feature list with not too many companies coloring outside the lines. If you want that particular feature list, then sure, everyone has "all the features", but there is a whole universe of additional features that phones could (and some did) have, that they no longer do.
Small size. I'm a 6'2" male, so my hands are probably pretty well above the population average. Maybe it's because I'm a lefty, but I hate how big phones have gotten. It makes one hand use almost impossible, and if it's that hard for me, I have to assume that most people have just given up on even trying. I'd really prefer a sub 5.5" phone screen (part of me wants to say even smaller, but it's been so long since I've used a phone that small, that I don't even know anymore what my ideal size/lower limit is).
Headphone jack. Relatively self explanatory, imo.
No camera cutout. I hate them. I'd literally rather give up the screen real estate and have a bigger top bezel (although, see my point 1, I obviously value screen size less than most consumers). Luckily in Android you can just turn off the screen around the cutout in developer options, but I'd prefer to just not have the screen there. At least on my current phone, it still wastes battery (this might be a non-issue on OLED screens) and will register touches, preventing proper touch recognition elsewhere (this is related to the difficulty of single handed use, would probably be mitigated on a smaller phone)
SD card slot. Maybe the easiest of this list to actually still find? It seems like a decent number of phones these days have a spot for it in in the SIM card tray. I've heard that the reason companies don't include it is that a lot of SD cards are trash and wear out pretty quickly. This could lead to consumers losing data and being mad at the phone manufacturer. In my opinion, this is understandable, but still a bad reason.
IR Blaster/FM Tuner. I consider these two together. They are both pretty niche, and are "nice to haves". Mostly because I want my phone to be as much of a general purpose communications device as possible. The times when these are helpful are infrequent, but in those rare times, extremely nice to have.
Replaceable battery actually isn't on my list, mostly because I consider it part and parcel of "repairability", which (maybe nonsensically) seems like a different category. And, for me personally, battery degradation actually hasn't been a problem for phones. The two biggest things I would want to be able to repair are charging ports (this would be mitigated with wireless charging) and screen repair. These are, for me at least, the two most likely parts to break/wear out, and in my opinion they should both be cheap and easy to repair. Of course, if it was easy to do those two, you'd get battery replacement almost by default, and I certainly wouldn't be mad about easier to swap batteries.
The "pebble 2" from the Kickstarter -> "core 2 time" The "pebble 2 time" is nowhere to be found.
(The pebble 2 time was supposed to be the same underlying hardware, but a much classier case, slightly different form factor). They look much more like a normal watch, versus the pebble style feels like a geek toy.
I still get compliments on my pebble time round to this day!
I've been wearing my
And I have the perfect name for it: the Second Time ‘Round.
My main complaint about Apple Watch is the size, so a very slim watch might get me to switch back. Have a Time in a drawer somewhere, but I assume its battery is shot by now.
Please, Core, resist the temptation to enshittify yourself with another useless round screen.
I daily drive the pebble time, but wear my round for dates or when I want to be a bit more stylish. I still get compliments on it to this day.
I'd like to hack around with the HR sensor, so I pre-ordered the Time 2.
What are good resources for looking into building an app for it? I see the OS is hosted here https://github.com/pebble-dev/pebble-firmware But most pebble-related google searches bring up ancient material and I'm not sure what's still relevant.
Assuming $100 average profit, that's a $2M for 20k watches. Given the work opportunities that the founder and other employees have, that's not a lot of money for them to make in a year, and it comes with significant risk. Basically seems like this is a passion project, for which I am very grateful!
https://www.business.hsbc.uk/en-gb/insights/starting-a-busin...
And sage
https://www.sage.com/en-us/blog/glossary/what-is-gross-profi...
And the uk education system
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zd2fpg8/revision/1
If we're talking about profit from the lens of a unit sale, we're usually talking about gross profit and gross margin.
Gross profit = sales or service revenue less the expenses directly related to producing that revenue (this does not include backoffice functions, R&D, rent, etc.)
Net profit, which is the total revenue of the business less all expenses of the business (so, this includes R&D, rent, and the "backoffice" like HR, finance, legal, etc.)
Larger businesses with multiple business segment may account for gross profit separately for each business segment, but the business only ever calculates one net profit item.
There's also unit profit, which is essentially gross profit but at the level of a single unit of goods or services (for services, a unit is usually a customer contract, for recurring services it would be each period of the contract). Unit profit is generally the revenue from that specific unit less the costs directly associated with producing that revenue. Most companies don't calculate unit profit as generally it's not meaningful unless you sell high-value items, like automobiles or planes.
Like, yeah our margins were/are super high, and so were/are the distributors’, but once everything was spun up and running it was also very stable and predictable.
We were located on the outskirts of a 3rd tier Eastern European city and yet we were plugged right into the same global parts supply chain and capable of doing the same global distribution you could elsewhere. If you’re on to something, it’s a good time to be doing hardware. But you’re correct - 2/3 of the entire company was distribution/sales and R&D.
Reading through the terms on the shop page, it seems they're preparing to (maybe) raise the prices at any time, and they'll ask you to pay more before shipping, if they end up raising the prices after you buy it.
Under the "What if the tariff situation changes?" section on https://store.repebble.com/
I was excited and about to purchase one until I saw this "We might not ship the device unless you pay us more" thing. I get that the economy is very up in the air right now in the US, but sucks that seemingly ordinary businesses are losing international business because of it.
Better to just wait until the whole drama blows over I suppose.
Sometimes I'll do it anyway for one of two reasons: to lock in a price that may increase later, or to receive an item earlier than I would otherwise, due to excessive demand.
But I recognize that everyone's a snowflake, so you do you.
Sadly the damage these people are causing by their implicit support for the end of the modern world won’t fix the problem when America realises it’s making itself poorer, history shows countries double down.
Why do you think I haven't been calling my representatives to complain about tariffs? What leads you to believe I'm not on the street protesting?
It doesn't change how I choose to spend my money.
I find what they’re doing very transparent from top to bottom. If you’re worried about it, don’t buy one. But if you’re worried they’re going to pull the rug out from under you, I don’t think you need to.
But regardless, they're not saying they would increase the "price" (whatever that means), but just that if the tariff situation changes, then the customer will need to pay the additional tariff. This is the same as what would happen if a state increased the sales tax rate and they had to collect and remit additional sales tax. It just so happens that it's unlikely any state is going to sharply increase its sales tax in the next year, but there's a decent chance the tariff rate will jump. If the sales tax went up, I wouldn't consider that to be the company raising the price. Same for tariffs, in my book.
Which means that in high-profile cases where the VAT rate is disputed, it's the retailer who is on the hook for the disputed amount. Recent examples being Greggs (a baker, who won their case, so no tax payable) and Uber (where I'm not actually sure whether it's finalised yet? But if they end up needing to pay VAT then it's going to be expensive).
In the past tariffs were implemented or modified with a long notice period so businesses could plan ahead.
Now they are being added or changed at the whim of a tantrum with no notice, so of course prices might need to also reflect that at short notice.
Prices changing after a preorder is completely different and not anything US specific.
I think it may even be illegal for consumer prices. What they display or list in the contract is what you pay.
But on the other hand I'm used to paying import taxes separately when ordering something from outside the EU.
But that doesn't have much to do with a price increasing weeks or months after paying for a preorder.
Tax policies change from the Truth Social post to the press conference.
FWIW, I'm in south-Europe, maybe that's why I got surprised I wouldn't have known the final price until the device would land in my hand?
Large stores can afford to precalculate this and use a service that will handle taxes for you, small stores not so much so you may end paying it personally on receiving the package. But they can afford to precalculate it if the taxes are known in advance (usually starts at whatever your country's VAT rate is).
Now in this case, shipping to the US looks like it will be randomly taxed depending on the phase of the moon and how well Trump has slept last night, so this warning is fair. You can't expect them to absorb a 50% import tax if it's established tomorrow.
Sure, and as you also seem familiar with, you know it's pretty trivial to calculate yourself when you place your order :)
So far, I've never bought something internationally, then before shipping the tax laws changed enough that the toll and/or tax payment was different than I expected.
What am I missing?
(Vested interest as a diabetic myself.)
My wife is a diabetic and this kind of stuff, while it seems minimal, makes a big difference for her quality of life.
If you're not familiar, here's a good starting point:
https://androidaps.readthedocs.io/en/latest/
Oh, and you want to avoid Apple's hardware. Some of the software can only be distributed as source code, so installing them to an iOS device is not easy.
The DHL shipping though I remembered it was $25 and it is still $25 today
I'm in my 50's and my reaction to the same information was "yeah, seems about right".
Are you going to sell replacement parts this time? I was immensely disappointed to see the initial watches being pretty repairable in theory, but no parts being sold. It was marketed as a tinkerer‘s device after all.
I’m wearing my Pebble Time Steel right now - and quite like it. Haven’t found anything better. It could use some better activity tracking, but the worst thing about it right now is that it doesn’t really have an iOS app (AltStore is pretty flaky). Any news on that front?
For some reason there just hasn’t been a real spiritual successor, so the revival is greatly appreciated.
I remember there was also an Intel processor with the same name.
I thought the Pebble app still worked, using Rebble. My understanding is that they are building a new app for the new watches, if that's what you were asking about.
Intel did make a smartwatch for a while, but I don't think it had a Core Due chipset!
I am not a trademark lawyer and I haven't even looked this up but if Apple made a "The Beatles Laptop" then I would hope that defence doesn't apply.
That went back to the Apple IIɢꜱ. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sosumi
They'll be cheeky, the big dinosaur corporate will come out swinging and look bad like they always do, and they'll get a load of press in the tech websites which is their target market.
The bad press comes when it feels unfair for the big company to try and pursue action but in this case it would seem that Intel would be perfectly justified...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43401245
Will it eventually end in a "we got sued by Intel!" marketing gambit? Certainly a possibility. Is assume they have played through both scenarios.
Searching for 'pebble core 2 duo' already comes up with a page of results only related to the watch[1] (including this very comment thread, ironically[2].) Search engines are very good these days.
1. https://imgur.com/TE3aaGY
2. https://imgur.com/l4aBszK
>>I think you might recognize this one It’s almost exactly a Pebble 2, upgraded with modern chips and new tricks. Duo is short for ‘Do-over’.
I have some sincere questions on the design choices. For context, I own a pebble time (everyday wear for triaging notifications) and a polar watch (for exercise tracking). Also part of a cycling community where we swap exercise watches to try out what else is out there. I have found I always sleep in my polycarb pebble time because I forget I am wearing it - it is that unnoticeable.
1) Why limit Core 2 Duo screen to BW? Feels like a step back when the Core Time 2 will have it. Sourcing parts?
2) According to the blog, I understand the Core Time 2 is your (Eric's) dream watch, so not trying to rain on your parade but trying to reason about the audience you're catering to here. The heart rate monitor suggests that it can be used to track physical activity. But... no GPS, metal (heavy) case, and protruding sensor diminish the utility of the sensor. If you've ever run with a light watch, you'll start noticing how quickly metal watches fatigue the skin. I've slept with watches on that track my sleep (optically) and the protruding sensors always causes pressure points - similar to a pebble (heh) in the shoe. Having 30 days battery life, speaker, and better vibration make for a great gadget that doesn't need to be taken off... unless it is not comfortable.
[0]: https://www.polar.com/en/science/whitepapers Purpose built devices are optimized and companies that build they have domain knowledge. You've probably never heard of polar but they publish the science behind their features where as garmin has nice looking gear but has gimmicky features, like "body battery"
There's one with a color screen.
2) It's not a running watch. I'd recommend getting garmin if you're looking for that.
I think we are on the same page but I've communicated poorly. Why even include a heart rate sensor on a watch that is not intended for exercising in when the trade-off is sacrificing comfort and raising the complexity and cost of the design?
2. People already exercise in metal straps and aluminum Garmins.
These just seem like you-things. Which is fine, but you should temper your complaints/bikeshedding accordingly.
It is not common to wear watches for more than a few days at a time simply because there are not many whose battery will last that long. The effects of fatigue/pressure point from the sensor bump are less observed but not missing. With 30 days on wrist, I can extrapolate that fatigue will be more pronounced - so I am calling it out. I understand I am a small sample size but I have 2 watches whose battery lasts 7 days and the one without the bump is more pleasant to wear for a week between charges. To the point that I always reach for the comfort option and eventually sold off the other.
On a lighter note, I do hope I'm not providing a series of increasingly bizarre and nonsensical questions or scenarios ;) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YDpvMYk5jA
I'm guessing comfort wasn't considered because it isn't a common complaint.
I've mentioned this in the above reply but I'll repeat here: It is not common to wear watches for more than a few days at a time simply because there are not many whose battery will last that long. The effects of fatigue/pressure point from the sensor bump are less observed but not missing. Majority of consumers wear Apple/Android watches that need to be recharged every day. With 30 days on wrist, I can extrapolate that fatigue will be more pronounced - so I am calling it out.
On my Samsung Galaxy watch, if I get a notification from my Unifi security cameras, for example, I get a little thumbnail image appear on my watch. There's no special app on my watch, just the app on my paired Galaxy phone.
Will it do this? Or would I just get a text notification? I don't understand smart watches well enough to know how much they are doing themselves vs how much of what they do is to be a mindless projection of whatever the paired phone tells them to do.
If you get a push notification on your mobile, I don't see a reason why pebble won't display it. The thumbnail image might be fixed but all the text content will be shown. And FWIW, the entire thing is open source so you can go in an add it, or open feature requests, etc.
(Notification Center gives you extreme amounts of control over what to send to the watch how it gets displayed, etc. It's the reason I'm still daily wearing my pebble watches)