Felt like a pr piece when the first line said “ultra cheap”. $21,500 is no ultra cheap when you compare it to vehicles like the Chinese made BYD brand some of which are $9700.
Yes it is nice to see prices come down but you are not going to convince me and millions of others that this is ultra cheap.
Quick googling showed the Tata Punch EV to cost between $15k-$19k. Afaik, the BYD Seagull is also targeting under 20k EUR in Europe, double the price in China. Might be tariffs.
Some countries like Denmark etc. have very high sales/registration taxes (then again EVs were mostly exempt from them for quite a while, and maybe still are?). In most other countries you only need to pay VAT (~20%) but then there are various rebates/subsidies which might fully offset that (especially for cheap models like this)
Would not say these are ultra-cheap. There is probably a lot of "price that the market can sustain" going on here, rather than what it costs them to build the cars
No idea. The cheapest they have for sale in the UK is the dolphin for about £26k ("On The Road", so all tax and delivery and registration etc included), but for that you get 250+ miles range and 7s 0-60mph, which not so long ago was Tesla-only territory, and is fairly competitive with what "traditional" brands (ford, VW, etc) are offering in terms of specs and price in the UK.
I don't know if they sell the exact same model (same range, same speed, same tech trim etc) for $10k but I would not be that surprised that they'd be making a huge huge outrageous profit just because they can in the UK, because that is what the competitors are charging so why not?
FWIW there are cheaper things on sale in the UK but they are much lower spec. E.g. £15K OTR gets you a 45bhp (yes, 45!) Dacia Spring that will get you from 0 to 60 in 19s (19!!!) and only go 100 miles between charges. Suddenly that BYD dolphin looks amazing. There is the Citroen AMI for £7.5k OTR, but that is legally not even classified as a car (it's a "quadricycle") has a range of 46 miles, a top speed of 28mph, and has not been crash tested by EuroNCAP ... It would likely be a total shit show if it were though. The BYD looks like a decent option by comparison, but I'd personally not pick one because they are such an unknown in this country and the price needs to be even lower for me to take a punt :)
Got me curious, I feel like it's cheaper to build a car that complies to global safety standards rather than make differing models for domestic (Chinese) and foreign markets.
Not to my knowledge, if you mean the models for the Chinese market. A 10k model in China is also vastly different from a 30k model in Europe. It’s quite an unfair comparison.
Yes but not ultra cheap. What we need is ultra cheap cars to make it possible so many people to enter the EV market. Currently only middle class or above can afford an EV. We also need to have our power grid supplied with clean energy to power these cars but both things need to happen. So if we could get one to happen that would be a very good start. But we also have to protect the American car industry and can't allow China to flood the market with actual ultra cheap sub $10k cars.
BYD Seagull is $9700. The newer models have gone up. The most basic version is more of a town car and would not meet everyones needs but plenty of people only need a town car.
Well you can't buy them in Europe either. They are planning to launch a €20k model this year, currently the cheapest car BYD offers seems to be around €30k.
You can't buy something which was just announced.
Shocker.
Regardless of the availability of this specific model, the parent comment still claimed that a car must be sold in the United States or it "might as well not exist".
You could move to Nuevo Laredo in Mexico, which is on the US/Mexico border, and buy a Mexican BYD. Register it in Mexico and get a Mexican driver's license.
Right on the other side of the border is Laredo, Texas, making it easy to come to the US for most things you want to do outside of your home if you don't want to do them in Mexico.
Google is telling me that crossing the border into the US at Laredo is usually pretty quick and easy for a US citizen.
It's sort of a backdoor, because while you would be living in Mexico in the sense that Mexico is where your apartment is, that apartment could be less then a mile from a border crossing so you could easily do most things in the US and just go back to Mexico every night to sleep.
If the internet is to be believed they would not need a Temporary Import Permit when visiting the US with the Mexican car because they are a US citizen. They would be able to stay with the car for up to a year in the US, so even if they wanted to take a vacation or road trip to someplace other than Laredo, TX that should be OK.
PS: there's an interesting limitation of Google maps I just noticed. If I've got a view that shows both the US and Mexico Laredos and do a search, I only get results on the US side. I have to scroll so that most of the view is the Mexico side before it will show anything.
21500 seems pretty cheap to me? Surely the most price conscious consumers would be looking at the second hand market instead anyway given how rapidly car value drops off once they're driven out of the lot.
VW has always had the chance to bring more than the ID.4 and Buzz to US/CAN for a more affordable EV but they've never really done it. With BYD taking on a huge customer base, it kind of begs the question who is this for?
Volkswagen began manufacturing ID.4 in the US back in 2022 and even before that AFAIK most of the cars they sold in the US weren't imported from Europe.
Of course they might decide that there might not be enough demand for small budget cars in the US to even offer this model but I doubt tariffs would be the primary reason.
Thanks. I assume the tarrifs apply to foreign-made, not foriegn-owned manufacturing (i.e., the VW plant in the US isn't affected). Also, their supply chains will be affected - I'd guess VW's plant has more non-US suppliers but that's not necessarily true.
Clearly primarily the European market? Both EU and US has put on pretty high tariffs on Chinese EVs so they should have a much easier time competing with BYD.
Is BYD competing in the US/CAN market for passenger automobiles? Presumably VW is building a more affordable EV for the rest of world market where BYD is selling cars?
I've seen some BYD busses, Facebook was using them when I was there, but I don't see any indication that their passenger cars have arrived in US/CA?
for /me, currently have VW Polo, this small <€20k city EV would be ideal replacement while keeping the maintenance and easiness of finding a service station in place. In EU vw garages are basically everywhere
> Our second generation R1 vehicles feature an entirely new electrical architecture and compute platform developed in-house by our hardware and software team. This significant update to our onboard computing system makes our vehicles more robust, less costly to produce and easier to service — all while improving the experience for our customers. Our new system also dramatically improves scalability for deployment in future vehicles.
> Core to the new system is a substantial reduction in the number of electronic control units (ECUs) used to control the vehicle, down from 17 different ECUs in our first generation to just seven ECUs in our second generation. This massive simplification has been achieved by shifting to a zonal architecture and by significantly increasing the computational capabilities of each of our ECUs. While infotainment, autonomy, vehicle access, drive units and our battery management system each have their own ECU, every other vehicle function is controlled by just three ECUs.
> Shifting to a zonal system enabled us to remove over 1.6 miles (2.6km) of wiring from each vehicle, shedding 44 lbs (20kg) of weight. This reduction in wiring, along with the elimination of 10 ECUs, greatly reduces production costs. Fewer components needing to be installed during assembly also improves manufacturing efficiency, allowing us to build vehicles more quickly and with better quality. With less components onboard, vehicles are easier to service and require us to stock fewer parts, improving serviceability.
> While infotainment, autonomy, vehicle access, drive units and our battery management system each have their own ECU, every other vehicle function is controlled by just three ECUs.
Sandy Munro did a deep dive Rivian's hardware and software a few weeks ago with their lead engineers. He actually did a series of videos talking about all aspects of all the changes they did in their latest vehicle architecture.
In short, Rivian reduced the number of control units from 17 to just 7. Software components are allocated to the an available unit. So, most stuff in the vehicle no longer has dedicated processors but simply gets allocated to share hardware with all the other systems. Doing that means less wires are needed, less thing can go wrong, etc. And it all gets over the air updates.
They develop most stuff in house; so they are not dependent on suppliers providing software for their hardware. So, that means it's easier to change things, to update things, etc. without having to deal with suppliers.
I assume, they are talking about bringing similar changes to VW. Same OS, same kind of processing units, probably a lot of the modules, etc. So when VW talks about a software defined car, that's what they mean.
I know that this is somewhat off topic but the writing in this passage is very odd:
> “This means the future entry-level Volkswagen can be equipped with new functions throughout its entire life cycle,” he said. “Even after purchase of a new car, the small Volkswagen can still be individually adapted to customer needs.”
I would rewrite it as:
> “This means the [car] can be equipped with new functions throughout its entire life cycle,” he said. “Even after purchase [...], [it] can still be individually adapted to customer needs.”
After a decade off the burner, the Dan Brown-alike reads as self-possessed, hard-boiled, and a little playful. I think his sin against literature was (like most celebrities) rooted in overexposure, not anything fundamentally wrong with his style.
65 comments
[ 5.0 ms ] story [ 80.4 ms ] threadYes it is nice to see prices come down but you are not going to convince me and millions of others that this is ultra cheap.
Some countries like Denmark etc. have very high sales/registration taxes (then again EVs were mostly exempt from them for quite a while, and maybe still are?). In most other countries you only need to pay VAT (~20%) but then there are various rebates/subsidies which might fully offset that (especially for cheap models like this)
Would not say these are ultra-cheap. There is probably a lot of "price that the market can sustain" going on here, rather than what it costs them to build the cars
But those aren't the sub-$10k ones, right?
I don't know if they sell the exact same model (same range, same speed, same tech trim etc) for $10k but I would not be that surprised that they'd be making a huge huge outrageous profit just because they can in the UK, because that is what the competitors are charging so why not?
FWIW there are cheaper things on sale in the UK but they are much lower spec. E.g. £15K OTR gets you a 45bhp (yes, 45!) Dacia Spring that will get you from 0 to 60 in 19s (19!!!) and only go 100 miles between charges. Suddenly that BYD dolphin looks amazing. There is the Citroen AMI for £7.5k OTR, but that is legally not even classified as a car (it's a "quadricycle") has a range of 46 miles, a top speed of 28mph, and has not been crash tested by EuroNCAP ... It would likely be a total shit show if it were though. The BYD looks like a decent option by comparison, but I'd personally not pick one because they are such an unknown in this country and the price needs to be even lower for me to take a punt :)
At least they have 5 stars in the Euro NCAP assessment: https://cdn.euroncap.com/media/82666/euroncap-2023-byd-dolph...
And they're being sold in Mexico in N. America, for 358,800 pesos (1), which is $18,000!
(1) https://mexico.as.com/motor/byd-dolphin-mini-que-tiene-de-es...
European spec BYDs tend to have 5-star (max) crash ratings.
this VW isnt "ultra cheap" at all.
Regardless of the availability of this specific model, the parent comment still claimed that a car must be sold in the United States or it "might as well not exist".
You could move to Nuevo Laredo in Mexico, which is on the US/Mexico border, and buy a Mexican BYD. Register it in Mexico and get a Mexican driver's license.
Right on the other side of the border is Laredo, Texas, making it easy to come to the US for most things you want to do outside of your home if you don't want to do them in Mexico.
Google is telling me that crossing the border into the US at Laredo is usually pretty quick and easy for a US citizen.
Maybe VW will also bring its cheap EVs to Mexico?
If the internet is to be believed they would not need a Temporary Import Permit when visiting the US with the Mexican car because they are a US citizen. They would be able to stay with the car for up to a year in the US, so even if they wanted to take a vacation or road trip to someplace other than Laredo, TX that should be OK.
PS: there's an interesting limitation of Google maps I just noticed. If I've got a view that shows both the US and Mexico Laredos and do a search, I only get results on the US side. I have to scroll so that most of the view is the Mexico side before it will show anything.
https://carfigures.com/us-market-brand/volkswagen/id4
Of course they might decide that there might not be enough demand for small budget cars in the US to even offer this model but I doubt tariffs would be the primary reason.
I've seen some BYD busses, Facebook was using them when I was there, but I don't see any indication that their passenger cars have arrived in US/CA?
I'm normally all about local manufacturing, but I'm rooting for BYD to come in and splatter all the big car manufacturers.
The markups on EVs are ridiculous given how much cheaper they are to manufacture.
for /me, currently have VW Polo, this small <€20k city EV would be ideal replacement while keeping the maintenance and easiness of finding a service station in place. In EU vw garages are basically everywhere
> Our second generation R1 vehicles feature an entirely new electrical architecture and compute platform developed in-house by our hardware and software team. This significant update to our onboard computing system makes our vehicles more robust, less costly to produce and easier to service — all while improving the experience for our customers. Our new system also dramatically improves scalability for deployment in future vehicles.
> Core to the new system is a substantial reduction in the number of electronic control units (ECUs) used to control the vehicle, down from 17 different ECUs in our first generation to just seven ECUs in our second generation. This massive simplification has been achieved by shifting to a zonal architecture and by significantly increasing the computational capabilities of each of our ECUs. While infotainment, autonomy, vehicle access, drive units and our battery management system each have their own ECU, every other vehicle function is controlled by just three ECUs.
> Shifting to a zonal system enabled us to remove over 1.6 miles (2.6km) of wiring from each vehicle, shedding 44 lbs (20kg) of weight. This reduction in wiring, along with the elimination of 10 ECUs, greatly reduces production costs. Fewer components needing to be installed during assembly also improves manufacturing efficiency, allowing us to build vehicles more quickly and with better quality. With less components onboard, vehicles are easier to service and require us to stock fewer parts, improving serviceability.
This looks like a list of safety critical systems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DC5AIXX1VA
In short, Rivian reduced the number of control units from 17 to just 7. Software components are allocated to the an available unit. So, most stuff in the vehicle no longer has dedicated processors but simply gets allocated to share hardware with all the other systems. Doing that means less wires are needed, less thing can go wrong, etc. And it all gets over the air updates.
They develop most stuff in house; so they are not dependent on suppliers providing software for their hardware. So, that means it's easier to change things, to update things, etc. without having to deal with suppliers.
I assume, they are talking about bringing similar changes to VW. Same OS, same kind of processing units, probably a lot of the modules, etc. So when VW talks about a software defined car, that's what they mean.
Volkswagen seeks to counter rivals with budget EV model
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43274698
> “This means the future entry-level Volkswagen can be equipped with new functions throughout its entire life cycle,” he said. “Even after purchase of a new car, the small Volkswagen can still be individually adapted to customer needs.”
I would rewrite it as:
> “This means the [car] can be equipped with new functions throughout its entire life cycle,” he said. “Even after purchase [...], [it] can still be individually adapted to customer needs.”
The original reminds me a bit of renowned author Dan Brown: https://onehundredpages.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/dont-make-f...
Uh, sounds more like facial recognition software than a car.
I can't wait for someone to sell affordable EVs in the US. I'm thinking about something like an electric Geo Metro.