Not in the more general sense! It can refer to what its acronym spells out directly: Bigger range between dimmest and brightest capabilities of a display, imaging technique etc.
No. HDR can encode high dynamic range because (typically) it uses floating point encoding.
From a technical point of view, HDR is just a set of standards and formats for encoding absolute-luminance scene-referred images and video, along with a set of standards for reproduction.
No. HDR video (and images) don't use floating point encoding. They generally use a higher bit depth (10 bits or more vs 8 bits) to reduce banding and different transfer characteristics (i.e. PQ or HLG vs sRGB or BT.709), in addition to different YCbCr matrices and mastering metadata.
And no, it's not necessarily absolute luminance. PQ is absolute, HLG is not.
Also DCI-P3 should fit in here somewhere, as it seems to be the most standardized color space for HDR. I would share more insight, if I had it. I thought I understood color profiles well, but I have encountered some challenges when trying to display in one, edit in another, and print “correctly”. And every device seems to treat color profiles a little bit differently.
All transfer functions can generally work on either integer range or floating point. They basically just describe a curve shape, and you can have that curve be over the range of 0.0-1.0 just as easily as you can over 0-255 or 0-1023.
Extended sRGB is about the only thing that basically requires floating point, as it specifically describes 0.0-1.0 as being equivalent to sRGB and then has a valid range larger than that (you end up with something like -.8 to 2.4 or greater). And representing that in integer domain is conceptually possible but practically not really.
> Also DCI-P3 should fit in here somewhere, as it seems to be the most standardized color space for HDR.
BT2020 is the most standardized color space for HDR. DCI-P3 is the most common color gamut of HDR displays that you can actually afford, however, but that's a smaller gamut than what most HDR profiles expect (HDR10, HDR10+, and "professional" DolbyVision are all BT2020 - a wider gamut than P3). Which also means most HDR content specifies a color gamut it doesn't actually benefit from having as all that HDR content is still authored to only use somewhere between the sRGB and DCI-P3 gamut since that's all anyone who views it will actually have.
The math uses real numbers but table 2-4 ("Digital representation") discusses how the signal is quantized to/from analog and digital. The signal is quantized to integers.
This same quantization process is done for sRGB, BT.709, BT.2020, etc. so it's not unique to HLG. It's just how digital images/video are stored.
I think most HDR formats do not typically use 32 bit floating point. The first HDR file format I can remember is Greg Ward’s RGBE format, which is also now more commonly known as .HDR and I think is pretty widely used.
It uses a type of floating point, in a way, but it’s a shared 8 bit exponent across all 3 channels, and the channels are still 8 bits each, so the whole thing fits in 32 bits. Even the .txt file description says it’s not “floating point” per-se since that implies IEEE single precision floats.
Cameras and displays don’t typically use floats, and even CG people working in HDR and using, e.g., OpenEXR, might use half floats more often that float.
Some standards do exist, and it’s improving over time, but the ideas and execution of HDR in various ways preceded any standards, so I think it’s not helpful to define HDR as a set of standards. From my perspective working in CG, HDR began as a way to break away from 8 bits per channel RGB, and it included improving both color range and color resolution, and started the discussion of using physical metrics as opposed to relative [0..1] ranges.
No, it isn't. Absolute luminance is a "feature" of PQ specifically used by HDR10(+) and most DolbyVision content (notably the DolbyVision as produced by an iPhone is not PQ, it's not "real" DolbyVision). But this is not the only form of HDR and it's not even the common form for phone cameras. HLG is a lot more popular for cameras and it is not in absolute luminance. The gainmap-based approach that Google, Apple, and Adobe are all using is also very much not absolute luminance, either. In fact that flips it entirely and it's SDR relative instead, which is a much better approach to HDR than what video initially went with.
Ideally in the abstract it could be just that, but in practice it's an umbrella name for many different techniques that provide some aspect of that goal.
HDR on displays is actually largely uncomfortable for me. They should reserve the brightest HDR whites for things like the sun itself and caustics, not white walls in indoor photos.
As for tone mapping, I think the examples they show tend way too much towards flat low-local-contrast for my tastes.
HDR is really hard to get right apparently. It seems to get worse in video games too.
I'm a huge fan of Helldivers 2, but playing the game in HDR gives me a headache: the muzzle flash of weapons at high RPMs on a screen that goes to 240hz is basically a continuous flashbang for my eyes.
For a while, No Mans' Sky in HDR mode was basically the color saturation of every planet dialed up to 11.
The only game I've enjoyed at HDR was a port from a console, Returnal. The use of HDR brights was minimalistic and tasteful, often reserved for certain particle effects.
For a year or two after it launched, The Division 2 was a really, really good example of HDR done right. The game had (has?) a day/night cycle, and it had a really good control of the brightness throughout the day. More importantly, it made very good use of the wide color gamut available to it.
I stopped playing that game for several years, and when I went back to it, the color and brightness had been wrecked to all hell. I have heard that it's received wisdom that gamers complain that HDR modes are "too dark", so perhaps that's part of why they ruined their game's renderer.
Some games that I think currently have good HDR:
* Lies of P
* Hunt: Showdown 1896
* Monster Hunter: World (if you increase the game's color saturation a bit from its default settings)
Some games that had decent-to-good HDR the last time I played them, a few years ago:
* Battlefield 1
* Battlefield V
* Battlefield 2042 (If you're looking for a fun game, I do NOT recommend this one. Also, the previous two are probably chock-full of cheaters these days.)
I found Helldivers 2's HDR mode to have blacks that were WAY too bright. In SDR mode, nighttime in forest areas was dark. In HDR mode? It was as if you were standing in the middle of a field during a full moon.
> I have heard that it's received wisdom that gamers complain that HDR modes are "too dark", so perhaps that's part of why they ruined their game's renderer.
A lot of people have cheap panels that claim HDR support (read: can display an HDR signal) but have garbage color space coverage, no local dimming, etc. and to them, HDR ends up looking muted.
For what it's worth, I have a monitor with VA panel that has no local dimming. It has a maximum brightness of a bit shy of 380 nits, and a real contrast ratio of ~3000:1, so HDR stuff ends up looking fine in dim rooms.
I would much rather have this monitor than one the "zoned" backlights that I've seen. They inevitably put nasty, nasty halos around medium-to-high-contrast parts of the picture. IME, any local dimming scheme that's less fine-grained than per-pixel dimming is simply not good enough.
A lot of this is poor QA. When you start to do clever things like HDR you have to test on a bunch of properly calibrated devices of different vendors etc. And if you're targeting Windows you have to accept that HDR is a mess for consumers and even if their display supports, their GPU supports it, they might still have the drivers and color profiles misconfigured. (and many apps are doing it wrong or weird, even when they say they support it)
Also (mostly) on Windows, or on videos for your TV: a lot of cheap displays that say they are HDR are a range of hot garbage.
There's a pretty good video on YouTube (more than one, actually) that explains how careless use of HDR in modern cinema is destroying the look and feel of cinema we used to like.
Everything is flattened, contrast is eliminated, lights that should be "burned white" for a cinematic feel are brought back to "reasonable" brightness with HDR, really deep blacks are turned into flat greys, etc. The end result is the flat and washed out look of movies like Wicked. It's often correlated to CGI-heavy movies, but in reality it's starting to affect every movie.
The washed out grey thing was an error that became a style!
Because HDR wasn’t natively supported on most displays and software, for a long time it was just “hacked in there” by squashing the larger dynamic range into a smaller one using a mathematical transform, usually a log function. When viewed without the inverse transform this looks horribly grey and unsaturated.
Directors and editors would see this aesthetic day in, day out, with the final color grade applied only after a long review process.
Some of them got used to it and even liking it, and now here we are: horribly washed out movies made to look like that on purpose.
The transition from Avengers to the later movies is very noticeable, and one of the worst offenders since source material really speaks against the choice.
What you said, it's definitely become a style. But, also, a lot of these movies that look like ass on Joe Public's OOGLAMG $130 85" Black Friday TV in his brightly-lit living room actually look awesome if your entire setup is proper, real HDR devices and software, your screen has proper OLED or local dimming, is calibrated to within an inch of its life etc, and you view them in a dark home theater.
True! But I think that movies adapted for TV must be made for the average "good quality" screen, not the state of the art that almost nobody owns. At least they should look decent enough in a good quality (but not top-notch) setup.
Also, the YouTube video I'm thinking of singles out Wicked as seen in movie theaters. The image "as intended" looks washed out and without contrast.
Most "HDR" monitors are junk that can't display HDR. The HDR formats/signals are designed for brightness levels and viewing conditions that nobody uses.
The end result is a complete chaos. Every piece of the pipeline doing something wrong, and then the software tries to compensate for it by emitting doubly wrong data, without even having reliable information about what it needs to compensate for.
What we really need is some standards that everybody follows. The reason normal displays work so well is that everyone settled on sRGB, and as long as a display gets close to that, say 95% sRGB, everyone except maybe a few graphics designers will have a n equivalent experience.
But HDR, it's a minefield of different display qualities, color spaces, standards. It's no wonder that nobody gets it right and everyone feels confused.
HDR on a display that has peak brightness of 2000 nits will look completely different than a display with 800 nits, and they both get to claim they are HDR.
We should have a standard equivalent to color spaces. Set, say, 2000 nits as 100% of HDR. Then a 2000 nit display gets to claim it's 100% HDR. A 800 nit display gets to claim 40% HDR, etc. A 2500 nit display could even use 125% HDR in it's marketing.
It's still not perfect - some displays (OLED) can only show peak brightness over a portion of the screen. But it would be an improvement.
DisplayHDR standard is supposed to be it, but they've ruined its reputation by allowing HDR400 to exist when HDR1000 should have been the minimum.
Besides, HDR quality is more complex than just max nits, because it depends on viewing conditions and black levels (and everyone cheats with their contrast metrics).
OLEDs can peak at 600 nits and look awesome — in a pitch black room. LCD monitors could boost to 2000 nits and display white on grey.
We have sRGB kinda working for color primaries and gamma, but it's not the real sRGB at 80 nits. It ended up being relative instead of absolute.
A lot of the mess is caused by the need to adapt content mastered for pitch black cinema at 2000 nits to 800-1000 nits in daylight, which needs very careful processing to preserve highlights and saturation, but software can't rely on the display doing it properly, and doing it in software sends false signal and risks display correcting it twice.
I've found this especially a problem with those AI systems trying to add HDR to existing images/videos. The worst instance I've seen, was playing one of the recent Spongebob platformer games, and having his eyes glow like giant suns in the menu screen. I have a TV capable of a fairly high maximum brightness, and it was dimming the rest of the image just to make sure Spongebob's eyes lit up my living room like it was midday
It feels like to some photographers/cinematographers/game designers, HDR is a gimmick to make something look more splashy/eye catching. The article touches on this a bit, with some of the 2000s HDR examples in photography. With the rise of HDR TVs, it feels like that trend is just happening again.
So, HN, are HDR monitors worth it? I remember ~10 years ago delaying my monitor purchase for the HDR one that was right around the corner, but never (in my purchasing scope) became available. Time for another look?
The utility of HDR (as described in the article) is without question. It's amazing looking at an outdoors (or indoors with windows) scene with your Mk-1 eyeballs, then taking a photo and looking at it on a phone or PC screen. The pic fails to capture what your eyes see for lighting range.
I think it depends on the screen and also what you use it for. My OLED is unusable for normal work in HDR because it's designed around only a small portion of the screen being at max brightness - reasonable for a game or movie, but the result is that a small window with white background will look really bright, but if I maximize it, it'll look washed out, grey not white.
Also the maximum brightness isn't even that bright at 800 nits, so no HDR content really looks that different. I think newer OLEDs are brighter though. I'm still happy with the screen in general, even in SDR the OLED really shines. But it made me aware not all HDR screens are equal.
Also, in my very short experiment using HDR for daily work I ran into several problems, the most serious of which was the discovery that you can no longer just screenshot something and expect it to look the same on someone else's computer.
> ...the most serious of which was the discovery that you can no longer just screenshot something and expect it to look the same on someone else's computer.
To be pedantic, this has always been the case... Who the hell knows what bonkers "color enhancement" your recipient has going on on their end?
But (more seriously) it's very, very stupid that most systems out there will ignore color profile data embedded in pictures (and many video players ignore the same in videos [0]). It's quite possible to tone-map HDR stuff so it looks reasonable on SDR displays, but color management is like accessibility in that nearly noone who's in charge of paying for software development appears to give any shits about it.
[0] A notable exception to this is MPV. I can't recommend this video player highly enough.
HDR general desktop usage: No. In fact you'll probably actively dislike it to the point of just turning it off entirely. The ecosystem just isn't ready for this yet, although with things like the "constrained-high" concepts ( https://www.w3.org/TR/css-color-hdr-1/#the-dynamic-range-lim... ) this might, and hopefully does, change & improve to a more pleasing result
Also this is assuming an HDR monitor that's also a good match for your ambient environment. The big thing nobody really talks about wiith HDR is that it's really dominated by how dark you're able to get your surrounding environment such that you can push your display "brightness" (read: SDR whitepoint) lower and lower. OLED HDR monitors, for example, look fantastic in SDR and fantastic in HDR in a dark room, but if you have typical office lighting and so you want an SDR whitepoint of around 200-300 nits? Yeah, they basically don't do HDR at all anymore at that point.
I use HDR for general usage, Windows ruins non-HDR content when HDR is enabled due to their choice of sRGB tf. Luckily every Linux DE has chosen to use the gamma 2.2 tf, and looks fine for general usage.
I use a mini-led monitor, and its quite decent, except for starfields, & makes it very usable even in bright conditions, and HDR video still is better in bright conditions than the equivalent SDR video.
Windows HDR implementation is janky as hell. For months after I got my monitor I couldn't take screenshots because they'd all appear completely blown out, like you cranked the brightness to 300%.
Eventually I did some digging and found there's a setting in Snipping Tool that just... makes screenshots work on HDR displays.
It also seems to add another layer of Your Desktop Trying To Sort Its Shit Out when launching a game that's full screen. Sometimes it's fine, but some games like Balatro will appear fine at first, but then when you quit back to the desktop everything is washed out. Sleeping my PC and waking it back up seems to resolve this.
I recently played through Armored Core VI, and it supports HDR, but whenever I adjust my volume the screen becomes washed out to display the volume slider. Screenshots and recordings also appear washed out in the resulting file.
I always thought the "Your Desktop Trying To Sort Its Shit Out" part was a necessary evil, but other platforms don't suffer from this (at least from what I can tell); the state of HDR on Windows is very disappointing, even just adjusting the TF to gamma 2.2 would make it substantially better. Watching all your non hdr content's blacks become gray is terrible. I assume the washed out appearance comes from it giving up on doing SDR->HDR for the desktop.
My brother got an OLED monitor & was telling me how bad his experience was on Windows, & he recently switched to Linux & does not have the issues he was complaining about before. Ofc, downsides to hdr on Linux (no hdr on chromium, hdr on Firefox is unfinished) atm, but the foundation seems better set for it.
Agree. Wide gamut and HDR is janky as hell on Windows. I have multi-mon with one SDR and one HDR and that plays havoc with things. But even Microsoft apps aren't updated. I'm pretty certain even Explorer still doesn't support HDR or wide gamut for thumbnails so everything looks either under or oversaturated in the previews. If you open stuff in the default Photos app there is a "flash of content" where it displays it in the wrong profile before it maps it to the correct one, too.
Every few years I turn on that HDR toggle for my desktop PC, and it never lasts longer than a day or two.
Top tip: If you have HDR turned on for your display in Windows (at least, MacOS not tested) and then share your screen in Teams, your display will look weirdly dimmed for everyone not using HDR on their display—which is everyone.
The difference is absolutely stunning in some games.
In MS Flight Simulator 2024, going from SDR to HDR goes from looking like the computer game it is to looking life-like. Deeper shadows with brighter highlights makes the scene pop in ways that SDR just can't do.
EDIT: You'll almost certainly need an OLED monitor to really appreciate it, though. Local dimming isn't good enough.
Honestly, I find the extended brightness FAR less important than the extended color gamut. I have a ~300 nit VA monitor that I'm generally quite happy with and that looks fantastic with well-built HDR renderers.
Given that monitors report information about their HDR minimum and maximum panel brightness capabilities to the machine they are connected to, any competently-built HDR renderer (whether that be for games or movies or whatever) will be able to take that information and adjust the picture appropriately.
Yes but with asterisks; Best way I can describe it:
You know the 0-10 brightness slider you have to pick at the start of a game? Imagine setting it to 0 and still being able to spot the faint dark spot. The dynamic range of things you can see is so much expanded.
Early HDR screens were very limited (limited dimming zones, buggy implementation) but if you get one post 2024 (esp the oled ones) they are quite decent.
However it needs to be supported at many layers: not just the monitor, but also the operating system, and the content. There are not many games with proper HDR implementation; and even if there is, it may be bad and look worse — the OS can hijack the rendering pipeline and provide HDR map for you (Nvidia RTX HDR) which is a gamble: it may look bleh, but sometimes also better than the native HDR implementation the game has).
But when everything works properly, wow it looks amazing.
> You know the 0-10 brightness slider you have to pick at the start of a game? Imagine setting it to 0 and still being able to spot the faint dark spot. The dynamic range of things you can see is so much expanded.
Note that HDR only actually changes how bright things can get. There's zero difference in the dark regions. This is made confusing because HDR video marketing often claims it does, but it doesn't actually. HDR monitors do not, in general, have any advantage over SDR monitors in terms of the darks. Local dimming zones improve dark contrast. OLED improves dark contrast. Dynamic contrast improves dark contrast. But HDR doesn't.
My understanding is that on the darker scenes (say, 0 to 5 in the brightness slider example), there is difference in luminance value with HDR but not SDR, so there is increased contrast and detail.
This matches my experience; 0 to 5 look identically black if I turn off HDR
You may have a monitor that only enables local dimming zones when fed an HDR signal but not when fed an SDR one, but that would be unusual and certainly not required. And likely something you could change in your monitors controls. On things like an OLED, though, there's no difference in the darks. You'd see a difference between 8bit and 10bit potentially depending on what "0 to 5" means, but 10-bit SDR is absolutely a thing (it predates HDR even)
But like if you can't see a difference between 0 to 5 in a test pattern like this https://images.app.goo.gl/WY3FhCB1okaRANc28 in SDR but you can in HDR then that just means your SDR factory calibration is bad, or you've fiddled with settings that broke it.
> You know the 0-10 brightness slider you have to pick at the start of a game? Imagine setting it to 0 and still being able to spot the faint dark spot
0-10 is so old century. Now it should be 0-2 (0 - default, 1 dark, 2 light,) /s
I've been thinking of moving out of the Apple ecosystem but after seeing Severance on my iPhone Pro screen I feel like I want the keep the option to have the same HDR experience for movies specifically. With HDR support landing in Linux just a month ago I'm inclined to spend on a good monitor. However, I have IPS HDR 600 monitor but I never felt that the screen was as glorious as the iPhone screen.
I'd also be interested in hearing whether it makes sense to look into OLED HDR 400 screens (Samsung, LG) or is it really necessary to get an Asus ProArt which can push the same 1000 nits average as the Apple XDR display (which, mind you, is IPS).
Dunno if it's just my screen or setup but on windows I have a Dell U4025QW and HDR on the desktop just looks strange, overly dull. Looks good in games but I have to manually turn it on and off each time on the screen.
On my Macbook Pro only activates when it needs to but honestly I've only seen one video [1] that impressed me with it, the rest was completely meh. Not sure if its because it's mostly iPhone photography you see in HDR which is overall pretty meh looking anyway.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwCFY6pmaYY I understand this isn't a true HDR process but someone messing with it in post, but it's the only video I've seen that noticeably shows you colors you can't see on a screen otherwise.
A lot of monitors that advertise HDR support really shouldn't. Many of them can decode the signal but don't have the hardware to accurately reproduce it, so you just end up with a washed out muddy looking mess where you're better off disabling HDR entirely.
As others here have said, OLED monitors are generally excellent at reproducing a HDR signal, especially in a darker space. But they're terrible for productivity work because they'll get burned in for images that don't change a lot. They're fantastic for movies and gaming, though.
There are a few good non-OLED HDR monitors, but not many. I have an AOC Q27G3XMN; its a 27" 1440p 180hz monitor that is good for entry-level HDR, especially in brighter rooms. It has over 1000 nits of brightness, and no major flaws. It only has 336 backlight zones, though, so you might notice some blooming around subtitles or other fine details where there's dark and light content close together. (VA panels are better than IPS at suppressing that, though.) It's also around half the price of a comparable OLED.
Most of the other non-OLED monitors with good HDR support have some other deal-breaking flaws or at least major annoyances, like latency, screwing up SDR content, buggy controls, etc. The Monitors Unboxed channel on YouTube and rtngs.com are both good places to check.
I think an OLED is basically an absolute necessity for HDR content.
My current monitor is an OLED and HDR in games looks absolutely amazing. My previous was an IPS that supported HDR, but turning it on caused the backlight to crank to the max, destroying black levels and basically defeating the entire purpose of HDR. Local dimming only goes so far.
> My previous was an IPS that supported HDR, but turning it on caused the backlight to crank to the max, destroying black levels and basically defeating the entire purpose of HDR
Yeah, that's kind of what I meant when I said that most monitors that advertise HDR shouldn't.
The AOC monitor is the third or fourth one I've owned that advertised HDR, but the first one that doesn't look like garbage when it's enabled.
I haven't gone oled yet because of both the cost and the risk of burn-in in my use case (lots of coding and other productivity work, occasional gaming).
Modern mini-led monitors are very good. The “local” dimming is so local that there isn’t much light bleed even in the worst-case situations (cursor over black background makes it particularly apparent).
The advantage of LEDs is they’re brighter. For example, compare two modern Asus ProArt displays: their mini-LED (PA32UCXR) at 1600 nits and their OLED (PA32DC) at 300ish nits. The OLED is 20% more expensive. These two monitors have otherwise comparable specs. Brightness matters a lot for HDR because if you’re in a bright room, the monitor’s peak brightness needs to overpower the room.
Plus for color managed work, I think LED monitors are supposed to retain their calibration well. OLEDs have to be frequently recalibrated.
And so-called micro-LEDs are coming soon, which promise to make “local” so small that it’s imperceptible. I think the near-term future of displays is really good LEDs.
Avoid cranking up the OLED brightness over 70% for static content and absolutely never drive SDR-Reds into the HDR range by using fake HDR-modes when having brightness high.
I have a LG 2018 OLED that has some burnt in Minecraft hearts because of that, not from Minecraft itself, but just a few hours of minecraft Youtube video in those settings from the built in youtube client, but virtually no other detectable issues after excessive years of use with static content.
You only see them with fairly uniform colors as a background where color banding would usually be my bigger complaint.
So burn-ins definitely happen, but they are far from being a deal breaker over the obvious benefits you get vs other types of displays.
And driving everything possible in dark mode (white text on dark bg) on those displays is even the logical thing to do. Then you dont need much max brightness anyway and even save some energy.
> A lot of monitors that advertise HDR support really shouldn't. Many of them can decode the signal but don't have the hardware to accurately reproduce it,
You can lie as much as you like as an advertiser. At the beginning, HD meant 1080p. Then, 1080p became FullHD, only that 720p to became HD and to make HD digital television possible. (the original SD television is worse than analog)
Apple's Displays yes. But I got a Phillips 4k OLED recently, and I'm already regretting that decision. I need to turn it off every 4 hours to refresh the pixels. Sometimes an entire line of pixels is brighter than the rest. I wiped it with a cloth while pixel refresh was running, and then saw burned in streaks in the direction of the wipe.
And thats now that all the LEDs are still fresh. I can't imagine how bad it will be in a few years.
Also, a lot of Software doesn't expect the subpixel arrangement, so text will often look terrible.
I've had an OLED TV since 2017 and the answer is a resounding yes... if you get an OLED and use it for movies or full screen gaming. Anything else is basically pointless.
For desktop work, don't bother unless your work involves HDR content.
For the love of gods, read the reviews though. Most HDR displays will make the picture worse not better because they have only implemented enough to put a sticker on the box.
You have to spend really good money to get a display which does HDR properly.
HDR when it works properly is nice, but nearly all HDR LCD monitors are so bad, they're basically a scam.
The high-end LCD monitors (with full-array local dimming) barely make any difference, while you'll get a lot of downsides from bad HDR software implementations that struggle to get the correct brightness/gamma and saturation.
IMHO HDR is only worth viewing on OLED screens, and requires a dimly lit environment. Otherwise either the hardware is not capable enough, or the content is mastered for wrong brightness levels, and the software trying to fix that makes it look even worse.
As a photographer, I get the appeal of (this new incarnation of) HDR content, but the practical reality is that the photos I see posted in my feeds go from making my display looking normal to having photos searing my retinas, while other content that was uniform white a second prior now looks dull gray.
It's late night here so I was reading this article in dark mode, at a low display brightness - and when I got to the HDR photos I had to turn down my display even more to not strain my eyes, then back up again when I scrolled to the text.
For fullscreen content (games, movies) HDR is alright, but for everyday computing it's a pretty jarring experience as a user.
Completely agree. To me, HDR feels like the system is ignoring my screen brightness settings.
I set my screen brightness to a certain level for a reason. Please don’t just arbitrarily turn up the brightness!
There is no good way to disable HDR on photos for iPhone, either. Sure, you can turn off the HDR on photos on your iphone. But then, when you cast to a different display, the TV tries to display the photos in HDR, and it won’t look half as good.
> To me, HDR feels like the system is ignoring my screen brightness settings.
You might be on to something there. Technically, HDR is mostly about profile signaling and therefore about interop. To support it in mpeg dash or hls media you need to make sure certain codec attributes are mentioned in the xml or m3u8 but the actual media payload stays the same.
Any bit or Bob being misconfigured or misinterpreted in the streaming pipeline will result in problems ranging from slightly suboptimal experience to nothing works.
Besides HDR, "spatial audio" formats like Dolby Atmos are notorious for interop isuues
> To me, HDR feels like the system is ignoring my screen brightness settings.
On both Android & iOS/MacOS it's not that HDR is ignoring your screen brightness, but rather the brightness slider is controlling the SDR range and then yes HDR can exceed that, that's the singular purpose of HDR to be honest. All the other purported benefits of HDR are at best just about HDR video profiles and at worst just nonsense bullshit. The only thing HDR actually does is allow for brighter colors vs. SDR. When used selectively this really enhances a scene. But restraint is hard, and most forms of HDR content production are shit. The HDR images that newer iPhones and Pixel phones are capturing are generally quite good because they are actually restrained, but then ironically both of them have horrible HDR video that's just obnoxiously bright.
you are right but at least in my experience it's very easy for a modern iPhone to capture a bad HDR photo, usually because there is some small strong highlight (often a form of specular reflection from a metallic object) that causes everything to be HDR while the photo content wouldn't need it
In beta testing this morning, the Halide “HDR slider” works as intended to solve that. Some of my photos have only needed +0.3 while a couple taken in near-total no-light-pollution darkness have it cranked all the way to max and that still isn’t enough.
"On both Android & iOS/MacOS it's not that HDR is ignoring your screen brightness, but rather the brightness slider is controlling the SDR range and then yes HDR can exceed that"
Doesn't this mean HDR is ignoring my brightness setting? Looking at the Mac color profiles, the default HDR has some fixed max brightness regardless of the brightness slider. And it's very bright, 1600 nits vs the SDR max of 600 nits. At least I was able to pick another option capping HDR to 600, but that still allows HDR video to force my screen to its normal full brightness even if I dimmed it.
> Doesn't this mean HDR is ignoring my brightness setting?
Not exactly because it is still being scaled by your brightness setting. As in, start playing an HDR video and then mess with the brightness slider. You will still see the HDR content getting dimmer/brighter.
It's easier to think about in Apple's EDR terms. 0.0-1.0 is the SDR range, and the brightness slider is changing what the nit value is of "1.0" - is it 100 nits? 300 nits? 50 nits? etc... HDR content (in theory) still has that same 0.0-1.0 portion of the range, and it's still being scaled. However it can exceed that 1.0. It's still being scaled, it's still "respecting" that slider. Just the slider wasn't a brightness limit as you're wanting it to be, but a 1.0 alignment point.
The problem comes when HDR content is disrespectful to that. When it just absolutely slams the brightness, pushing all of its content way past that 1.0 value. This is bad content, and unfortunately it's incredibly common in HDR media due in part to the fact that the original HDR specs are very incomplete and in part because it's a new loudness war.
Ah, just tested with https://github.com/dtinth/superwhite and you're correct. I remember it not even scaling with the brightness, but guess I was wrong.
It's not just the HDR content that gets brighter, but SDR content too. When I test it in Chrome on Android, if an HDR image shows up on screen the phone start overriding the brightness slider completely and making everything brighter, including the phone's system UI.
>The only thing HDR actually does is allow for brighter colors vs. SDR.
Not just brighter, but also darker, so it can preserve detail in dark areas rather than crushing them.
> It's not just the HDR content that gets brighter, but SDR content too. When I test it in Chrome on Android, if an HDR image shows up on screen the phone start overriding the brightness slider completely and making everything brighter, including the phone's system UI.
> Not just brighter, but also darker, so it can preserve detail in dark areas rather than crushing them.
It does not get darker, and while PQ allocates more bits to the dark region HLG does not. And, more importantly, neither does the actual display panel which are still typically gamma 2.2-2.4 regardless. So PQ's extra precision in the dark areas is ~never utilized other than as tonemapping input, but the resulting output does not have any increased precision in the darks over SDR.
In fact it actually has less precision in the dark areas as the increased display luminance range means the panels native bit depth need to cover more range.
In practice the 'HDR' standards are also about wider color gamuts (than sRGB), and (as mentioned in parallel) packed into more bits, in a different way, so as to minimise banding while keeping file sizes in check.
While it isn't touched on in the post, I think the issue with feeds is that platforms like Instagram have no interest in moderating HDR.
For context: YouTube automatically edits the volume of videos that have an average loudness beyond a certain threshold. I think the solution for HDR is similar penalization based on log luminance or some other reasonable metric.
I don't see this happening on Instagram any time soon, because bad HDR likely makes view counts go up.
As for the HDR photos in the post, well, those are a bit strong to show what HDR can do. That's why the Mark III beta includes a much tamer HDR grade.
Another related parallel trend recently is that bad AI images get very high view and like counts, so much so that I've lost a lot of motivation for doing real photography because the platforms cease to show them to anyone, even my own followers.
> YouTube automatically edits the volume of videos that have an average loudness beyond a certain threshold.
For anyone else who was confused by this, it seems to be a client-side audio compressor feature (not a server-side adjustment) labeled as "Stable Volume". On the web, it's toggleable via the player settings menu.
I didn't realize this was a thing until just now, but I'm glad they added it because (now that I think about it) it's been awhile since I felt the need to adjust my system volume when a video was too quiet even at 100% player volume. It's a nice little enhancement.
Yes, and I love it! Finally, the volume knob control was pulled from producers all about gimmicks to push their productions.
There are still gimmicks, but at least they do not include music so badly clipped as to be unlistenable... hint: go get the DVD or Blu-Ray release of whatever it is and you are likely to enjoy a not clipped album.
It is all about maximizing the overall sonic impact the music is capable of. Now when levels are sane, song elements well differentiated and equalized such that no or only a minor range of frequencies are crushed due to many sounds all competing for them, it will sound, full, great and not tiring!
Thanks audio industry. Many ears appreciate what was done.
I know they've automatically boosted brightness in dark scenes for a long time too. It's not rare for people to upload a clip from a video game with a very dark scene and it's way brighter after upload than it was when they played or how it looks in the file they uploaded.
Youtube has been long normalizing videos standard feed, switching to a -14 LUFS target in 2019. But LUFS is a global target, and is meant to allow higher peaks and troughs over the whole video, and the normalization does happen on a global level - if you exceed it by 3dB, then the whole video gets it's volume lowered by 3dB, no matter if the part is quiet or not.
The stable volume thing is meant to essentially level out all of the peaks and troughs, and IIRC it's actually computed server-side, I think yt-dlp can download stable volume streams if asked to.
Why is nobody talking about the standards development? They (OS, image formats) could just say all stuff by default assumes SDR and if a media file explicitly calls for HDR even then it cannot have sharp transitions except in special cases, and the software just blocks or truncates any non conforming images. The OS should have had something like this for sound, about 25-30 years ago. For example a brightness aware OS/monitor combo could just outright disallow anything about x nits. And disallow certain contrast levels, in the majority of content.
Instagram has to allow HDR for the same reason that Firefox spent the past twenty years displaying web colors like HN orange at maximum display gamut rather than at sRGB calibrated: because a brighter red than anyone else’s draws people in, and makes the competition seem lifeless by comparison, especially in a mixed-profiles environment. Eventually that is regarded as ‘garishly bright’, so to speak, and people push back against it. I assume Firefox is already fixing this to support the latest CSS color spec (which defines #rrggbb as sRGB and requires it to be presented as such unless stated otherwise in CSS), but I doubt Instagram is willing to literally dim their feed; instead, I would expect them to begin AI-HDR’ing SDR uploads in order that all videos are captivatingly, garishly, bright.
> I think the solution for HDR is similar penalization based on log luminance or some other reasonable metric.
I completely understand the desire to address the issue of content authors misusing or intentionally abusing HDR with some kind of auto-limiting algorithm similar to the way the radio 'loudness wars' were addressed. Unfortunately, I suspect it will be difficult, if not impossible, to achieve without also negatively impacting some content applying HDR correctly for artistically expressive purposes. Static photos may be solvable without excessive false positive over-correction but cinematic video is much more challenging due to the dynamic nature of the content.
As a cinemaphile, I'm starting to wonder if maybe HDR on mobile devices simply isn't a solvable problem in practice. While I think it's solvable technically and certainly addressable from a standards perspective, the reality of having so many stakeholders in the mobile ecosystem (hardware, OS, app, content distributors, original creators) with diverging priorities makes whatever we do from a base technology and standards perspective unlikely to work in practice for most users. Maybe I'm too pessimistic but as a high-end home theater enthusiast I'm continually dismayed how hard it is to correctly display diverse HDR content from different distribution sources in a less complex ecosystem where the stakeholders are more aligned and the leading standards bodies have been around for many decades (SMPTE et al).
I believe everything could be solved the same way we solved high dynamic range in audio, with a volume control.
I find it pretty weird that all tvs and most monitors hide the brightness adjustment under piles and piles of menus when it could be right there in the remote alongside the sound volume buttons. Maybe phones could have hardware brightness buttons too, at least something as easy as it is on adjusting brightness in notebooks that have dedicated brightness fn buttons.
Such brightness slider could also control the amount of tonemapping applied to HDR content. High brightness would mean no to low tonemapping and low brightness would use a very agressive tonemapper producing a similar image to the SDR content along it.
Also note that good audio volume attenuation requires proper loudness contour compensation (as you lower the volume you also increase the bass and treble) for things to sound reasonably good and the "tone" sound well balanced. So, adjusting the tonemapping based on the brightness isn't that far off what we do with audio.
Btw, YouTube doesn't moderate HDR either. I saw one video of a child's violin recital that was insanely bright, and probably just by accident of using a bad HDR recorder.
I’m under the impression this is caused by the use of “HDR mode”(s) and poor adaptive brightness implementations on devices. Displays such as the iPad Pro w/ OLED are phenomenal and don’t seem to implement an overactive adaptive brightness. HDR content has more depth without causing brightness distortion.
In contrast, my TV will change brightness modes to display HDR content and disables some of the brightness adjustments when displaying HDR content. It can be very uncomfortably bright in a dark room while being excessively dim in a bright room. It requires adjusting settings to a middle ground resulting in a mixed/mediocre experience overall. My wife’s laptop is the worst of all our devices, while reviews seem to praise the display, it has an overreactive adaptive brightness that cannot be disabled (along with decent G2G response but awful B2W/W2B response that causes ghosting).
Apple’s method involves a good deal of what they call “EDR”, wherein the display gamma is ramped down in concert with ramping the brightness up, so that the brighter areas get brighter while the non-bright areas remain dark due to gamma math; that term is helpful for searching their WWDC developer videos for more details.
It still looks like how they say where its way too bright and makes formerly “bright” whites appear even neutral grey surrounding the hdr content. Personally I find it extremely jarring when it is just a frame that is hdr within the overall screen. It is much nicer when the hdr content is full screen. Imo I wish I could just disable partial screen hdr and keep the full screen implementation because it is that distracting.
Out curiosity — I don’t have Instagram to test and this is a perceptual question anyways — if you enable iOS Settings > Accessibility > Display > Reduce White Point (25%) and increase the screen brightness slightly to compensate for the slight dimness; does that reduce or eliminate the ‘jarring’ness?
That's not inherent to HDR though. BFV (unless I'm confusing it with something else) has a HDR adjustment routine where you push a slider until the HDR white and the SDR white are identical. Same could be done for desktop environments. In my experience, HDR support is very lacking in PCs atm. You can't even play Dolby Vision on Windows, which is the only widely-used HDR format with dynamic metadata.
No; Windows 10 barely supports it, and of my hundreds of Steam games, exactly none have any code making use of it; seemingly only AAA mega-budget games have the pipeline bandwidth, but e.g. Dune Imperium and Spaceways have no reason to use it and so don’t bother. Windows 11 focused on improving wide color support which is much more critical, as any game shipping for Mac/Win already has dealt with that aspect of the pipeline and has drabified their game for the pre-Win11 ICC nightmares. Even games like Elite Dangerous, which would be a top candidate for both HDR and wide color, don’t handle this yet; their pipeline is years old and I don’t envy them the work of trying to update it, given how they’re overlaying the in-game UI in the midst of their pipeline.
(It doesn’t help that Windows only allows HDR to be defined in EDID and monitor INF files, and that PC monitors start shutting off calibration features when HDR is enabled because their chipsets can’t keep up — just as most modern Sony televisions can’t do both Dolby Vision and VRR because that requires too much processing power for their design budget.)
Nothing you're written disproves that no one wants it, if anything the fact that nothing really supports it implies that it's not a valuable feature that people are clamoring for.
Given how popular it is in modern console AAA gaming, which many people do play on PCs, one can reasonably expect that any studio desiring to target high contrast gaming — a valuable niche for stealth games, where a bright torch should absolutely stand out brightly against the darkest shadows, as well as star exploration and anything with landscapes or specular highlights — would like to be targeting HDR on PC, if only to simplify their cross-platform build and test pipelines, but cannot due to platform barriers that don’t exist for consoles.
I want it. And, I'm hardpressed to imagine a multimedia consumer that doesn't care about color and brightness ranges, unless they don't understand what that is. Every movie is recorded and many phones now capture in a range that can't be encoded in 8-bits.
If you mean https://i.imgur.com/0LtYuDZ.jpeg that is probably the slider GP wants but it's not about matching HDR white to SDR white, it's just about clamping the peak HDR brightness in its own consideration. The white on the left is the HDR brightness according to a certain value in nits set via the bottom slider. The white on the right is the maximally bright HDR signal. The goal of adjusting the slider is to find how bright of an HDR white your display can actually produce, which is the lowest slider value at which the two whites appear identical to a viewer.
Some games also have a separate slider https://i.imgur.com/wenBfZY.png for adjusting "paper white", which is the HDR white one might normally associate with matching to SDR reference white (100 nits when in a dark room according to the SDR TV color standards, higher in other situations or standards). Extra note: the peak brightness slider in this game (Red Dead Redemption 2) is the same knob as the brightness slider in the above Battlefield V screenshot)
This seems more like a "your feeds" problem than an HDR problem. Much in the same way people screencap and convert images willy nilly. I suggest blocking non HDR content
I experience the same thing you do — but my take on it is different. Being hit with HDR images (and videos on YouTube), while unsettling, makes me then realize how just damned dull the SDR world I had been forced to succumb to has been.
Let the whole experience be HDR and perhaps it won't be jarring.
Note for Firefox users - view the page in Chrome to see more of what they are talking about. I was very confused by some of the images, and it was a world of difference when I tried again in Chrome. Things began to make a lot more sense - is there a flag I am missing in Firefox on the Mac?
For what it's worth, your comment has me convinced I just "can't see" HDR properly because I have the same page side-by-side on Firefox and Chrome on my M4 MBP and honestly? Can't see the difference.
edit: Ah, nevermind. It seems Firefox is doing some sort of post-processing (maybe bad tonemapping?) on-the-fly as the pictures start out similar but degrade to washed out after some time. In particular, the "OVERTHROW BOXING CLUB" photo makes this quite apparent.
That's a damn shame Firefox. C'mon, HDR support feels like table stakes at this point.
edit2: Apparently it's not table stakes.
> Browser support is halfway there. Google beat Apple to the punch with their own version of Adaptive HDR they call Ultra HDR, which Chrome 14 now supports. Safari has added HDR support into its developer preview, then it disabled it, due to bugs within iOS.
at which point I would just say to `lux.camera` authors - why not put a big fat warning at the top for users with a Firefox or Safari (stable) browser? With all the emphasis on supposedly simplifying a difficult standard, the article has fallen for one of its most famous pitfalls.
"It's not you. HDR confuses tons of people."
Yep, and you've made it even worse for a huge chunk of people. :shrug: Great article n' all just saying.
HDR support in Chrome (Android) looks still broken for me. For one, some of the images on the blog have a posterization effect, which is clearly wrong.
Second, the HDR effect seems to be implemented in a very crude way, which causes the whole Android UI (including the Android status bar at the top) to become brighter when HDR content is on screen. That's clearly not right. Though, of course, this might also be some issue of Android rather than Chrome, or perhaps of the Qualcomm graphics driver for my Adreno GPU, etc.
A lot of these design flaws are fixed by Firefox's picture in picture option but for some reason, with the way you coded it, the prompt to pop it out as PIP doesn't show up
Does anyone else find the hubris in the first paragraph writing as off-putting as I do?
"we finally explain what HDR actually means"
Then spends 2/3rds of the article on a tone mapping expedition, only to not address the elephant in the room, that is the almost complete absence of predictable color management in consumer-grade digital environments.
UIs are hardly ever tested in HDR: I don't want my subtitles to burn out my eyes in actual HDR display.
It is here, where you, the consumer, are as vulnerable to light in a proper dark environment for movie watching, as when raising the window curtains on a bright summer morning.
(That brightness abuse by content is actually discussed here)
Dolby Vision and Apple have the lead here as a closed platforms, on the web it's simply not predictably possible yet.
Best hope is the efforts of the Color on the Web Community Group from my impression.
Isn't that the point of the article? That the colloquial meaning of HDR is quite overloaded, and when people complain about HDR, they mean bad tone-mapping? I say this as someone as close to totally ignorant about photography as you can get; I personally thought the article was pretty spectacular.
When I complain about HDR it's because I've intentionally set the brightness of pure white to a comfortable level, and then suddenly parts of my screen are brighter than that. You fundamentally can't solve that problem with just better tone mapping, can you?
Well yeah. I considered adding that caveat but elected not to because it's obvious and doesn't add anything to the conversation, since that's obviously not what's meant when the industry talks about "HDR". Should've remembered this is HN.
The bit about "confused" turns me off right away. The kind of high-pressure stereo salesman who hopes I am the kind of 'audiophile' who prevents me from calling myself an 'audiophile' (wants mercury-filled cables for a more 'fluid' sound) always presupposes the reader/listener is "confused".
But it's not the colloquial meaning, HDR is fairly well defined by e.g. ITU-R BT.2100, which addresses colorimetry, luminance and the corresponding transfer functions.
I don't think that's the colloquial meaning. If you asked 100 people on the street to describe HDR, I doubt a single person would bring up ITU-R BT.2100.
HDR has a number of different common meanings, which adds to the confusion.
For example, in video games, "HDR" has been around since the mid '00s, and refers to games that render a wider dynamic range than displays were capable of, and use post-process effects to simulate artifcats like bloom and pupil dilation.
In photography, HDR has almost the opposite meaning of what it does everywhere else. Long and multiple exposures are combined to create an image that has very little contrast, bringing out detail in a shot that would normally be lost in shadows or to overexposure.
Photography’s meaning is also about a hundred years older than video games; high(er) dynamic range was a concern in film processing as far back as Ansel, if not prior. That technology adopted it as a sales keyword is interesting and it’s worth keeping in mind when writing for an audience — but this post is about a photography app, not television content or video games, so one can reasonably expect photography’s definition to be used, even if the audience isn’t necessarily familiar.
They also make no mention of transfer functions, which is the main mechanism which explains why the images “burn your eyes” – content creators should use HLG (which has relative luminance) and not PQ (which has absolute luminance) when they create HDR content for the web.
In theory PQ specifies absolute values, but in practice it's treated as relative. Go load some PQ encoded content on an iPhone, adjust your screen brightness, and watch the HDR brightness also change. Beyond the iPhone, it would be ridiculous to render absolute values as-is, given SDR white is supposedly 100-nits; that would be unwatchable in most living rooms.
Bad HDR boils down to poor taste and the failure of platforms to rein it in. You can't fix bad HDR by switching encodings any more than you can fix global warming by switching from Fahrenheit to Celsius.
> Does anyone else find the hubris in the first paragraph writing as off-putting as I do?
> "we finally explain what HDR actually means"
No. Because it's written for the many casual photographers we've spoken with who are confused and asked for an explainer.
> Then spends 2/3rds of the article on a tone mapping expedition, only to not address the elephant in the room, that is the almost complete absence of predictable color management in consumer-grade digital environments.
That's because this post is about HDR and not color management, which is different topic.
Maybe my response was part of the broader HDR symptom—that the acronym is overloaded with different meanings depending on where you're coming from.
On the HN frontpage, people are likely thinking of one of at least three things:
HDR as display tech (hardware)
HDR as wide gamut data format (content)
HDR as tone mapping (processing)
...
So when the first paragraph says we finally explain what HDR actually means, it set me off on the wrong foot—it comes across pretty strongly for a term that’s notoriously context-dependent. Especially in a blog post that reads like a general explainer rather than a direct Q&A response when not coming through your apps channels.
Then followed up by The first HDR is the "HDR mode" introduced to the iPhone camera in 2010. caused me to write the comment.
For people over 35 with even the faintest interest in photography, the first exposure to the HDR acronym probably didn’t arrive with the iPhone in 2010, but HDR IS equivalent to Photomatix style tone mapping starting in 2005 as even mentioned later. The ambiguity of the term is a given now. I think it's futile to insist or police one meaning other the other in non-scientific informal communication, just use more specific terminology.
So the correlation of what HDR means or what sentiment it evokes in people by age group and self-assesed photography skill might be something worthwhile to explore.
The post get's a lot better after that. That said, I really did enjoy the depth. The dive into the classic dodge and burn and the linked YouTube piece. One explainer at a time makes sense—and tone mapping is a good place to start. Even tone mapping is fine in moderation :)
Just out of curiosity since your profile suggests your from an older cohort.
Do you actively remember the Pixelmatix tone mapping era, or where you already old enough to see this as a passing fad, or was this a more niche thing than I remember?
I was old enough to see it as the passing fad it was.
Niche, style points first kind of thing for sure.
Meta: old enough that getting either a new color not intended, or an additional one visible on screen and having the machine remain able to perform was a big deal.
I missed the MDA/EGA/CGA/Hercules era and jumped right into glorious VGA. Only start options for some DOS-games informed you about that drama in the mid 90s not having any idea what that meant otherwise.
It is a fun era NOW. I love the pre VGA PC and earlier systems, like Apple 2, Atari. Am building a CGA system with a K2 CPU to go hacking on to see what was possible. I have, as do many, unfinished business :)
Back then, it was fun at times, bit was also limiting in ways sometimes hard to fathom ways.
Things are crazy good now, BTW. Almost anything is a few clicks away. The CRT is old, panels so damn good..
> "The first HDR is the "HDR mode" introduced to the iPhone camera in 2010."
Yeah, I had a full halt and process exception on that line too. I guess all the research, technical papers and standards development work done by SMPTE, Kodak, et al in the 1990s and early 2000s just didn't happen? Turns out Apple invented it all in 2010 (pack up those Oscars and Emmys awarded for technical achievement and send'em back boys!)
This post is written for people who have heard "HDR" and feel confused. That introduction lists two types of HDR people might think about. "The first" means "the first of two types we're going to explain," not "the first research in the chronological history of HDR."
It's about HDR from the perspective of still photography, in your app, on iOS, in the context of hand-held mobile devices. The post's title ("What Is HDR, Anyway?"), content level and focus would be appropriate in the context of your company's social media feeds for users of your app - which is probably the audience and context it was written for. However in the much broader context of HN, a highly technical community whose interests in imaging are diverse, the article's content level and narrow focus aren't consistent with the headline title. It seems written at a level appropriate for novice users.
If this post was titled "How does Halide handle HDR, anyway?" or even "How should iOS photo apps handle HDR, anyway?" I'd have no objection about the title's promise not matching the content for the HN audience. When I saw the post's headline I thought "Cool! We really need a good technical deep dive into the mess that is HDR - including tech, specs, standards, formats, content acquisition, distribution and display across content types including stills, video clips and cinematic story-telling and diverse viewing contexts from phones to TVs to cinemas to VR." When I started reading and the article only used photos to illustrate concepts best conveyed with color gradient graphs PLUS photos, I started to feel duped by the title.
(Note: I don't use iOS or your app but the photo comparison of the elderly man near the end of the article confused me. From my perspective (video, cinematography and color grading), the "before" photo looks like a raw capture with flat LUT (or no LUT) applied. Yet the text seemed to imply Halide's feature was 'fixing' some problem with the image. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding since I don't know the tool(s) or workflow but I don't see anything wrong with the original image. It's what you want in a flat capture for later grading.)
> However in the much broader context of HN, a highly technical community whose interests in imaging are diverse, the article's content level and narrow focus aren't consistent with the headline title. It seems written at a level appropriate for novice users.
That is hardly the fault of the authors though. The article seems entirely appropriate for its intended audience, and they can’t control who posts it on a site like HN.
> It's about HDR from the perspective of still photography, in your app, on iOS, in the context of hand-held mobile devices.
It's from the perspective of still photography, video, film, desktop computing, decades of research papers, and hundreds of years of analog photography, condensed into something approachable.
> However in the much broader context of HN, a highly technical community whose interests in imaging are diverse, the article's content level and narrow focus aren't consistent with the headline title. It seems written at a level appropriate for novice users.
"On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity"
To be clear, I didn't submit the post, and I never submit my posts. I don't care if my posts make a splash here, and kind of dread when they do because anything involving photography or video attracts the most annoying "well actually" guys on the Internet.
> When I saw the post's headline I thought "Cool! We really need a good technical deep dive into the mess that is HDR - including tech, specs, standards, formats, content acquisition, distribution and display across content types including stills, video clips and cinematic story-telling and diverse viewing contexts from phones to TVs to cinemas to VR."
The post is called, "What is HDR," and the introduction explains the intended audience. That audience is much larger than "people who want to read about ITU-R Recommendation BT.2100." But if you think people are interested in a post like that, by all means write it.
I predict HDR content on the web will eventually be disabled or mitigated on popular browsers similarly to how auto-playing audio content is no longer allowed [1]
Spammers and advertisers haven't caught on yet to how abusively attention grabbing eye-searingly bright HDR content can be, but any day now they will and it'll be everywhere.
This seems like a fairly easy problem to solve from a UX standpoint, even moreso than auto-playing audio/video. Present all pages in SDR by default, let the user click a button on the toolbar or url bar to toggle HDR rendering when HDR content is detected.
They haven't, but influencers certainly have, I get regular still images which are rendered as a video to get the HDR brightness boost in Instagram, etc.
I on the other hand never thought or cared about HDR much before but I remember seeing it everywhere. But I feel the article explains well and clearly with examples, for someone like me who isn't much camera literate.
It seems fine to me. Made sense on the first read and matches my experiences with OpenEXR and ProPhoto RGB and pre-Apple monitors.
High dynamic resolution has always been about tone mapping. Post-sRGB color profile support is called “Wide color” these days, has been available for twenty years or more on all DSLR cameras (such as Nikon ProPhoto RGB supported in-camera on my old D70), and has nothing to do with the dynamic range and tone mapping of the photo. It’s convenient that we don’t have to use EXR files anymore, though!
An HDR photo in sRGB will have the same defects beyond peak saturation at any given hue point, as an SDR photo in sRGB would, relative to either in DCI-P3 or ProPhoto. Even a two-bit black-or-white “what’s color? on or off pixels only” HyperCard dithered image file can still be HDR or SDR. In OKLCH, the selected luminosity will also impact the available chroma range; at some point you start spending your new post-sRGB peak chroma on luminosity instead; but the exact characteristic of that tradeoff at any given hue point is defined by the color profile algorithm, not by whether the photo is SDR or HDR, and the highest peak saturation possible for each hue is fixed, whatever luminosity it happens to be at.
It may not be the best explanation, but I think any explanation of HDR beyond a sentence or two of definition that doesn't mention the mess that is tone mapping is entirely remiss.
Just one other thing. In Analog you also have compensating developers, which will exhaust faster in darker areas (or lighter if you think in negative), and allow for lighter areas more time to develop and show, and hence some more control of the range. Same but to less degree with stand development which uses very low dilutions of the developer, and no agitation. So dodging and burning is not the only way to achieve higher dynamic range in analog photos.
About HDR on phones, I think they are the blight of photography. No more shadows and highlights. I find they are good at capturing family moments, but not as a creative tool.
For analog photos the negative also has more dynamic range than your screen or photopaper without any of that. Contrast is applied in the darkroom by choice of photopaper and enlarger timing and light levels, or after scanning with contrast adjustment applied in post processing. It is really a storage medium of information more than how the final image ought to look.
Slide film has probably a third the dynamic range of negative film and is meant as the final output fit for projection to display.
> About HDR on phones, I think they are the blight of photography. No more shadows and highlights.
HDR is what enables you to capture both the darkest shadow detail and the brightest highlight detail.
With SDR, one or both are often simply just lost. It might come down to preference — if you're an "auto" shooter and like the effect of the visual information at the edges of the available dynamic range being truncated, SDR is for you.
Some people prefer to capture that detail and have the ability to decide whether and how to diminish or remove it, with commensurately more control over the artistic impact. For those folks, HDR is highly desirable.
No. When you simply adjust shadow and highlights, you lose local contrast. In an early draft of the post, there was an example, but it was cut for pacing.
Human vision has around 20 stops of static dynamic range. Modern digital cameras can't match human vision— a $90,000 Arri Alexa boasts 17 stops— but they're way better than SDR screens.
I'm not entirely convinced that greedy influencers are to blame for people hating on overly bright content. Instead, I think something is different with how displays produce brightness compared to just the nature outside. Light outside is supposed to reach up to tens of thousands of nits, yet even 1000 nits is searing on a display. Is it that displays output polarized light? Is it the spectral distribution of especially the better displays being three really tight peaks? I cannot tell you, but I'm suspecting something isn't quite right.
All this aside, HDR and high brightness are different things - HDR is just a representational thing. You can go full send on your SDR monitor as well, you'll just see more banding. The majority of the article is just content marketing about how they perform automatic tonemapping anyways.
It's all down to the ambient light. That's why bias lighting is now a thing. Try putting a light behind your screen to massively brighten the wall behind it, the 1000 nit peaks will be far less harsh. And if you bring the device out into sunlight I suspect you will wish for everything about its output to be quite a bit brighter.
> Light outside is supposed to reach up to tens of thousands of nits, yet even 1000 nits is searing on a display.
That’s a consequence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye). If you look at 1000 nits on a display in bright sunlight, with your eyes adapted to the bright surroundings, the display would look rather dim.
... something Linux Desktops don't understand and Macs only do well with their own displays with videos. Guess who the winner is on the desktop: Windows oO
Linux does HDR. It's *technically" worked for years but none of the big DEs had it working. Now Ubuntu 25.04 and Fedora 42 (Gnome) have it working out of the box.
As a non-techie I represent the 99.9% of the population who haven't a clue what tone mapping etc. is: NO WAY would we ever touch the various settings possible as opposed to watching the TV/computer screen/etc. as it came out of the box.
i am still skeptical about HDR as pretty much all HDR content I see online is awful. But this post makes me believe that Lux/Halide can pull of HDR in a way that I will like. I am looking forward to Halide Mk3.
> A big problem is that it costs the TV, Film, and Photography industries billions of dollars (and a bajillion hours of work) to upgrade their infrastructure. For context, it took well over a decade for HDTV to reach critical mass.
This is also true for consumers. I don't own a single 4k or HDR display. I probably won't own an HDR display until my TV dies, and I probably won't own a 4k display until I replace my work screen, at which point I'll also replace one of my home screens so I can remote into it without scaling.
To demonstrate some contrast (heh) with another data point from someone closer to the other extreme, I’ve owned a very HDR-capable monitor (the Apple Pro Display XDR) since 2020, so that’s 5 years now. Content that takes full advantage of it is still rare, but it’s getting better slowly over time.
I have a screen which is "HDR" but what that means is when you turn the feature on it just makes everything more muted, it doesn't actually have any more dynamic range. When you turn HDR on for a game it basically just makes most things more muddy grey.
I also have a screen which has a huge gamut and blows out colors in a really nice way (a bit like the aftereffects of hallucinogens, it has colors other screens just don't) and you don't have to touch any settings.
My OLED TV has HDR and it actually seems like HDR content makes a difference while regular content is still "correct".
The cheap displays adding broken HDR400 support destroyed so much public opinion on HDR. Not actually providing a wider range but accepting the HDR signal would at least have been a minor improvement if the tone mapping weren't completely broken to the point most people just associate HDR with a washed out picture.
>The cheap displays adding broken HDR400 support destroyed so much public opinion on HDR.
It's funny because the display I have that does this was a relatively premium Odyssey G7 which at $700 isn't at all a cheap monitor. (I like it, it's just not at all HDR, or at least not perceivably so compared to Apple devices and an OLED TV)
The only HDR monitors I have actually enjoyed (which, admittedly, is a slightly higher bar than "most of this price aren't completely miscalibrated") have been $1500+ which is a bit ridiculous considering far cheaper TVs do far better with HDR (though tend to suck as monitors). In the Odyssey line this would be the Neo G9 options, but I've never went home with one because they lack flat variants for the ones with good HDR.
This is also true for consumers. I don't own a single 4k or HDR display. I probably won't own an HDR display until my TV dies, and I probably won't own a 4k display until I replace my work screen, at which point I'll also replace one of my home screens so I can remote into it without scaling.
People in the HN echo chamber over-estimate hardware adoption rates. For example, there are millions of people who went straight from CDs to streaming, without hitting the iPod era.
A few years ago on HN, there was someone who couldn't wrap their brain around the notion that even though VCRs were invented in the early 1960's that in 1980, not everyone owned one, or if they did, they only had one for the whole family.
Normal people aren't magpies who trash their kit every time something shiny comes along.
>there are millions of people who went straight from CDs to streaming, without hitting the iPod era
Who?
There was about a decade there where everyone who had the slightest interest in music had an mp3 player of some kind, at least in the 15-30 age bracket.
I don't know if I count, but I never owned a dedicated MP3 player[1], I listened to MP3s on my computer, but used CDs and cassettes while on the move, until I got an android phone that had enough storage to put my music collection on.
1: Well my car would play MP3s burned to CDs in its CD player; not sure if that counts.
I imagine this depends a LOT on your specific age and what you were doing in the 00's when MP3 player usage peaked.
I finished high school in 2001 and didn't immediately go to college, so I just didn't have a need for a personal music player anymore. I was nearly always at home or at work, and I drove a car that actually had an MP3 CD player. I felt no need to get an iPod.
In 2009, I started going to college, but then also got my first smartphone, the Motorola Droid, which acted as my portable MP3 player for when I was studying in the library or taking mass transit.
If you were going to school or taking mass transit in the middle of the '00s, then you were probably more likely to have a dedicated MP3 player.
> A few years ago on HN, there was someone who couldn't wrap their brain around the notion that even though VCRs were invented in the early 1960's that in 1980, not everyone owned one, or if they did, they only had one for the whole family.
Point of clarification: While the technology behind the VCR was invented in the '50s and matured in the '60s, consumer-grade video tape systems weren't really a thing until Betamax and VHS arrived in 1975 and 1976 respectively.
Early VCRs were also incredibly expensive, with prices ranging from $3,500 to almost $10,000 after adjusting for inflation. Just buying into the VHS ecosystem at the entry level was a similar investment to buying an Apple Vision Pro today.
Exactly my point. But people on HN, especially the person I referenced, don't understand that we didn't just throw stuff away and go into debt to buy the latest gadgets because we were told to.
Don't feel like you have to. I bought a giant fancy TV with it, and even though it's impressive, it's kinda like ultra-hifi-audio. I don't miss it when I watch the same show on one of my older TVs.
If you ever do get it, I suggest doing for a TV that you watch with your full attention, and watching TV / movies in the dark. It's not very useful on a TV that you might turn on while doing housework; but very useful when you are actively watching TV with your full attention.
I don't either see a point of having 4K TV vs 1080p TV. To me is just marketing, I have at my house both a 4K and a 1080p and from a normal viewing distance (that is 3/4 meters) you don't see differences.
Also in my country (Italy) TV transmissions are 1080i at best, a lot are still 570i (PAL resolution). Streaming media can be 4K (if you have enough bandwidth to stream it at that resolution, which I don't have at my house). Sure, if you download pirated movies you find it at 4K, and if you have the bandwidth to afford it... sure.
But even there, sometimes is better a well done 1080p movie than an hyper compressed 4K one, since you see compression artifacts.
To me 1080p, and maybe even 720p, is enough for TV vision. Well, sometimes I miss the CRT TVs, they where low resolution but for example had a much better picture quality than most modern 4K LCD TV where black scenes are gray (I know there is OLED, but is too expensive and has other issues).
For TVs under ~80" I feel like you'd have to be sitting abnormally close to your TV for it to matter much. At the same time I think the cost difference between producing 1080p and 4k panels is so low it probably doesn't matter. Like you say, things like the backlight technology (or lack thereof) make a much bigger difference in perceived quality but that's also where the actual cost comes in.
I feel the same way. To be honest even the laptop retina screen is excess. I sometimes go back to a 2012 non retina macbook pro and to be honest at normal laptop viewing angles, you can’t really discern pixels. Biggest difference is display scaling but I have my retina scaled at what the old display would be anyhow because otherwise its too small.
Kind of crazy no one thought of this aspect and we just march on to higher resolution and the required hardware for that.
I agree about 4k vs non-4k. I will say going OLED was a huge upgrade, even for SDR content. HDR content is hit-or-miss...I find some of it is tastefully done but in many cases is overdone.
My own movie collection is mostly 2-4GB SDR 1080p files and looks wonderful.
Jokes aside, when a 4k TV has a good upscaler, it's hard to tell the difference between 1080 and 4k. Not impossible; I certainly can, but 1080 isn't distracting.
Well, if it was for me I wouldn't even have a TV at home since I wouldn't use it (and thus I would also save the TV tax that we have to pay in our country if we own one). But my girlfriend watches a lot of TV, and I often watch it with her of course, thus I have two TVs.
I totally love HDR on my OLED TV, and definitely miss it on others.
Like a lot of things, it’s weird how some people are more sensitive to visual changes. For example:
- At this point, I need 120hz displays. I can easily notice when my wife’s phone is in power saver mode at 60hz.
- 4k vs 1080p. This is certainly more subtle, but I definitely miss detail in lower res content.
- High bitrate. This is way more important than 4k vs 1080p or even HDR. But it’s so easy to tell when YouTube lowers the quality setting on me, or when a TV show is streaming at a crappy bitrate.
- HDR is tricky, because it relies completely on the content creator to do a good job producing HDR video. When done well, the image basically sparkles, water looks actually wet, parts of the image basically glow… it looks so good.
I 100% miss this HDR watching equivalent content on other displays. The problem is that a lot of content isn’t produced to take advantage of this very well. The HDR 4k Blu-ray of several Harry Potter movies, for example, has extremely muted colors and dark scenes… so how is the image going to pop? I’m glad we’re seeing more movies rely on bright colors and rich, contrasty color grading. There are so many old film restorations that look excellent in HDR because the original color grade had rich, detailed, contrasty colors.
On top of that, budget HDR implementations, ESPECIALLY in PC monitors, just don’t get very bright. Which means their HDR is basically useless. It’s impossible to replicate the “shiny, wet look” of really good HDR water if the screen can’t get bright enough to make it look shiny. Plus, it needs to be selective about what gets bright, and cheap TVs don’t have a lot of backlighting zones to make that happen very well.
So whereas I can plug in a 4k 120hz monitor and immediately see the benefit in everything I do for normal PC stuff, you can’t get that with HDR unless you have good source material and a decent display.
Pretty much any display you can buy today will be HDR capable, though that doesn't mean much.
I think the industry is strangling itself putting "DisplayHDR 400" certification on edgelit/backlit LCD displays. In order for HDR to look "good" you either need high resolution full array local dimming backlighting (which still isn't perfect), or a panel type that doesn't use any kind of backlighting like OLED.
Viewing HDR content on these cheap LCDs often looks worse than SDR content. You still get the wider color gamut, but the contrast just isn't there. Local dimming often loses all detail in shadows whenever there is something bright on the screen.
HDR marketing on monitors almost seems like a scam. Monitors will claim HDR compatibility when what they actually means is they will take the HDR data stream and display it exactly the same as SDR content because they don't actually have the contrast and brightness ability of a proper HDR monitor.
Few things are in absolutes. Yes most consumers wont have every screen hdr nor 4k, but most consumers use a modern smartphone and just about every modern smartphone from the past half decade or more has hdr of some level.
I absolutely loathe consuming content on a mobile screen, but its the reality is the vast majority are using phone and tablets most the time.
Funny enough HDR content works absolutely perfect as long as it stays on device that has both HDR-recording and display tech, aka smartphones.
The problem starts with sending HDR content to SDR-only devices, or even just other HDR-standards. Not even talking about printing here.
This step can inherently only be automated so much, because it's also a stylistic decision on what information to keep or emphasize.
This is an editorial process, not something you want to emburden casual users with. What works for some images can't work for others. Even with AI the preference would still need to be aligned.
I have to think you are are the 1-3% outlier though. Everyone I know has an HDR screen even my friend who never buys anything new, but he did run out and buy an HDR tv to replace his old one that he gave to his son.
I honestly do not know if I have any screen that supports HDR. At least I've never noticed any improved image quality when viewing HDR video content and compare the image on my M3 Macbook Pro screen vs. an old external IPS monitor. Maybe my eyes are just broken?
I did my PhD in Atomic, Molecular, and Optical (AMO) physics, and despite "optical" being part of that I realized midway that I didn't know enough about how regular cameras worked!
It didn't take very long to learn, and it turned out to be extremely important in the work I did during the early days at Waymo and later at Motional.
I wanted to pass along this fun video from several years ago that discusses HDR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkQJdaGGVM8 . It's short and fun, I recommend it to all HN readers.
Separately, if you want a more serious introduction to digital photography, I recommend the lectures by Marc Levoy from his Stanford course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7HrM-fk_Rc&list=PL8ungNrvUY... . I believe he runs his own group at Adobe now after leading a successful effort at Google making their pixel cameras the best in the industry for a couple of years. (And then everyone more-or-less caught up, just like with most tech improvements in the history of smartphones).
I think Canon makes at least some of their sensors, and Nikon designs theirs and makes it at a third party I forget the name of that isn't Sony or Samsung but they still do use Sony stuff in a lot of their cameras.
I don't know about Pentax, Panasonic or OMD (formerly Olympus)
I think folks here have some idea how expensive chip fabs are. That's why only Canon is able to make their own sensors.
Sony makes sensors for pretty much everyone else. But it's well known that other folks e.g. Nikon have been able to get better signal-to-noise with Sony-made sensors than Sony themselves. I think Panasonic used to make their own sensors but with some recent re-org, that got spun out.
It's been widely rumored that Leica uses Sony sensors, but this gets repeatedly denied by people claiming inside information. We know that Leica was getting 24MP CMOS sensors from CMOSIS in the 2012 timeframe, but CMOSIS has since been acquired by OSRAM, and there hasn't been any verifiable information since then, whether confirming or denying a continued business relationship.
Try capturing fire with a non-Sony phone and a Sony phone. At least Samsung doesn't color correct blackbodies right and the flame looks nothing like reality.
Is there any workflow that can output HDR photos (like the real HDR kind, with metadata to tell the display to go into HDR mode) for photos shot with a mirrorless and not an iPhone?
Yes. For example, Lightroom and Camera Raw support HDR editing and export from RAW images, and Adobe published a good rundown on the feature when they introduced it.
> AI cannot read your mind, so it cannot honor your intent.
This. I can always tell when someone "gets" software development when they either understand (or don't) that computers can't read minds or infer intent like a person can.
Is there a consensus definition of what counts as "HDR" in a display? What is the "standard dynamic range" of a typical TV or computer monitor? Is it roughly the same for devices of the same age?
My understanding is most SDR TVs and computer screens have displays about 200-300 nits (aka cd/m²). Is that the correct measure of the range of the display? The brightest white is 300 nits brighter than the darkest black?
this isn't a correct definition. human perception of brightness is roughly logarithmic, so it also matters how deep the blacks get. For a good HDR experience, you need a monitor that gets to 600 nits at a bare minimum, but also which can get very close to 0 nits (e.g. via OLED or less optionally local dimming)
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[ 1.9 ms ] story [ 339 ms ] threadFrom a technical point of view, HDR is just a set of standards and formats for encoding absolute-luminance scene-referred images and video, along with a set of standards for reproduction.
And no, it's not necessarily absolute luminance. PQ is absolute, HLG is not.
Also DCI-P3 should fit in here somewhere, as it seems to be the most standardized color space for HDR. I would share more insight, if I had it. I thought I understood color profiles well, but I have encountered some challenges when trying to display in one, edit in another, and print “correctly”. And every device seems to treat color profiles a little bit differently.
All transfer functions can generally work on either integer range or floating point. They basically just describe a curve shape, and you can have that curve be over the range of 0.0-1.0 just as easily as you can over 0-255 or 0-1023.
Extended sRGB is about the only thing that basically requires floating point, as it specifically describes 0.0-1.0 as being equivalent to sRGB and then has a valid range larger than that (you end up with something like -.8 to 2.4 or greater). And representing that in integer domain is conceptually possible but practically not really.
> Also DCI-P3 should fit in here somewhere, as it seems to be the most standardized color space for HDR.
BT2020 is the most standardized color space for HDR. DCI-P3 is the most common color gamut of HDR displays that you can actually afford, however, but that's a smaller gamut than what most HDR profiles expect (HDR10, HDR10+, and "professional" DolbyVision are all BT2020 - a wider gamut than P3). Which also means most HDR content specifies a color gamut it doesn't actually benefit from having as all that HDR content is still authored to only use somewhere between the sRGB and DCI-P3 gamut since that's all anyone who views it will actually have.
The math uses real numbers but table 2-4 ("Digital representation") discusses how the signal is quantized to/from analog and digital. The signal is quantized to integers.
This same quantization process is done for sRGB, BT.709, BT.2020, etc. so it's not unique to HLG. It's just how digital images/video are stored.
https://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~bjw/rgbe.html
It uses a type of floating point, in a way, but it’s a shared 8 bit exponent across all 3 channels, and the channels are still 8 bits each, so the whole thing fits in 32 bits. Even the .txt file description says it’s not “floating point” per-se since that implies IEEE single precision floats.
Cameras and displays don’t typically use floats, and even CG people working in HDR and using, e.g., OpenEXR, might use half floats more often that float.
Some standards do exist, and it’s improving over time, but the ideas and execution of HDR in various ways preceded any standards, so I think it’s not helpful to define HDR as a set of standards. From my perspective working in CG, HDR began as a way to break away from 8 bits per channel RGB, and it included improving both color range and color resolution, and started the discussion of using physical metrics as opposed to relative [0..1] ranges.
As for tone mapping, I think the examples they show tend way too much towards flat low-local-contrast for my tastes.
I'm a huge fan of Helldivers 2, but playing the game in HDR gives me a headache: the muzzle flash of weapons at high RPMs on a screen that goes to 240hz is basically a continuous flashbang for my eyes.
For a while, No Mans' Sky in HDR mode was basically the color saturation of every planet dialed up to 11.
The only game I've enjoyed at HDR was a port from a console, Returnal. The use of HDR brights was minimalistic and tasteful, often reserved for certain particle effects.
I stopped playing that game for several years, and when I went back to it, the color and brightness had been wrecked to all hell. I have heard that it's received wisdom that gamers complain that HDR modes are "too dark", so perhaps that's part of why they ruined their game's renderer.
Some games that I think currently have good HDR:
* Lies of P
* Hunt: Showdown 1896
* Monster Hunter: World (if you increase the game's color saturation a bit from its default settings)
Some games that had decent-to-good HDR the last time I played them, a few years ago:
* Battlefield 1
* Battlefield V
* Battlefield 2042 (If you're looking for a fun game, I do NOT recommend this one. Also, the previous two are probably chock-full of cheaters these days.)
I found Helldivers 2's HDR mode to have blacks that were WAY too bright. In SDR mode, nighttime in forest areas was dark. In HDR mode? It was as if you were standing in the middle of a field during a full moon.
A lot of people have cheap panels that claim HDR support (read: can display an HDR signal) but have garbage color space coverage, no local dimming, etc. and to them, HDR ends up looking muted.
I would much rather have this monitor than one the "zoned" backlights that I've seen. They inevitably put nasty, nasty halos around medium-to-high-contrast parts of the picture. IME, any local dimming scheme that's less fine-grained than per-pixel dimming is simply not good enough.
Also (mostly) on Windows, or on videos for your TV: a lot of cheap displays that say they are HDR are a range of hot garbage.
Everything is flattened, contrast is eliminated, lights that should be "burned white" for a cinematic feel are brought back to "reasonable" brightness with HDR, really deep blacks are turned into flat greys, etc. The end result is the flat and washed out look of movies like Wicked. It's often correlated to CGI-heavy movies, but in reality it's starting to affect every movie.
Because HDR wasn’t natively supported on most displays and software, for a long time it was just “hacked in there” by squashing the larger dynamic range into a smaller one using a mathematical transform, usually a log function. When viewed without the inverse transform this looks horribly grey and unsaturated.
Directors and editors would see this aesthetic day in, day out, with the final color grade applied only after a long review process.
Some of them got used to it and even liking it, and now here we are: horribly washed out movies made to look like that on purpose.
Also, the YouTube video I'm thinking of singles out Wicked as seen in movie theaters. The image "as intended" looks washed out and without contrast.
The end result is a complete chaos. Every piece of the pipeline doing something wrong, and then the software tries to compensate for it by emitting doubly wrong data, without even having reliable information about what it needs to compensate for.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1A__vvTDKXt4qcuCcSN-vLzcQ...
But HDR, it's a minefield of different display qualities, color spaces, standards. It's no wonder that nobody gets it right and everyone feels confused.
HDR on a display that has peak brightness of 2000 nits will look completely different than a display with 800 nits, and they both get to claim they are HDR.
We should have a standard equivalent to color spaces. Set, say, 2000 nits as 100% of HDR. Then a 2000 nit display gets to claim it's 100% HDR. A 800 nit display gets to claim 40% HDR, etc. A 2500 nit display could even use 125% HDR in it's marketing.
It's still not perfect - some displays (OLED) can only show peak brightness over a portion of the screen. But it would be an improvement.
Besides, HDR quality is more complex than just max nits, because it depends on viewing conditions and black levels (and everyone cheats with their contrast metrics).
OLEDs can peak at 600 nits and look awesome — in a pitch black room. LCD monitors could boost to 2000 nits and display white on grey.
We have sRGB kinda working for color primaries and gamma, but it's not the real sRGB at 80 nits. It ended up being relative instead of absolute.
A lot of the mess is caused by the need to adapt content mastered for pitch black cinema at 2000 nits to 800-1000 nits in daylight, which needs very careful processing to preserve highlights and saturation, but software can't rely on the display doing it properly, and doing it in software sends false signal and risks display correcting it twice.
It feels like to some photographers/cinematographers/game designers, HDR is a gimmick to make something look more splashy/eye catching. The article touches on this a bit, with some of the 2000s HDR examples in photography. With the rise of HDR TVs, it feels like that trend is just happening again.
The utility of HDR (as described in the article) is without question. It's amazing looking at an outdoors (or indoors with windows) scene with your Mk-1 eyeballs, then taking a photo and looking at it on a phone or PC screen. The pic fails to capture what your eyes see for lighting range.
Also the maximum brightness isn't even that bright at 800 nits, so no HDR content really looks that different. I think newer OLEDs are brighter though. I'm still happy with the screen in general, even in SDR the OLED really shines. But it made me aware not all HDR screens are equal.
Also, in my very short experiment using HDR for daily work I ran into several problems, the most serious of which was the discovery that you can no longer just screenshot something and expect it to look the same on someone else's computer.
To be pedantic, this has always been the case... Who the hell knows what bonkers "color enhancement" your recipient has going on on their end?
But (more seriously) it's very, very stupid that most systems out there will ignore color profile data embedded in pictures (and many video players ignore the same in videos [0]). It's quite possible to tone-map HDR stuff so it looks reasonable on SDR displays, but color management is like accessibility in that nearly noone who's in charge of paying for software development appears to give any shits about it.
[0] A notable exception to this is MPV. I can't recommend this video player highly enough.
HDR full screen content: Yes.
HDR general desktop usage: No. In fact you'll probably actively dislike it to the point of just turning it off entirely. The ecosystem just isn't ready for this yet, although with things like the "constrained-high" concepts ( https://www.w3.org/TR/css-color-hdr-1/#the-dynamic-range-lim... ) this might, and hopefully does, change & improve to a more pleasing result
Also this is assuming an HDR monitor that's also a good match for your ambient environment. The big thing nobody really talks about wiith HDR is that it's really dominated by how dark you're able to get your surrounding environment such that you can push your display "brightness" (read: SDR whitepoint) lower and lower. OLED HDR monitors, for example, look fantastic in SDR and fantastic in HDR in a dark room, but if you have typical office lighting and so you want an SDR whitepoint of around 200-300 nits? Yeah, they basically don't do HDR at all anymore at that point.
I use a mini-led monitor, and its quite decent, except for starfields, & makes it very usable even in bright conditions, and HDR video still is better in bright conditions than the equivalent SDR video.
https://github.com/dylanraga/win11hdr-srgb-to-gamma2.2-icm
Eventually I did some digging and found there's a setting in Snipping Tool that just... makes screenshots work on HDR displays.
It also seems to add another layer of Your Desktop Trying To Sort Its Shit Out when launching a game that's full screen. Sometimes it's fine, but some games like Balatro will appear fine at first, but then when you quit back to the desktop everything is washed out. Sleeping my PC and waking it back up seems to resolve this.
I recently played through Armored Core VI, and it supports HDR, but whenever I adjust my volume the screen becomes washed out to display the volume slider. Screenshots and recordings also appear washed out in the resulting file.
My brother got an OLED monitor & was telling me how bad his experience was on Windows, & he recently switched to Linux & does not have the issues he was complaining about before. Ofc, downsides to hdr on Linux (no hdr on chromium, hdr on Firefox is unfinished) atm, but the foundation seems better set for it.
Like totally washed out
Top tip: If you have HDR turned on for your display in Windows (at least, MacOS not tested) and then share your screen in Teams, your display will look weirdly dimmed for everyone not using HDR on their display—which is everyone.
The difference is absolutely stunning in some games.
In MS Flight Simulator 2024, going from SDR to HDR goes from looking like the computer game it is to looking life-like. Deeper shadows with brighter highlights makes the scene pop in ways that SDR just can't do.
EDIT: You'll almost certainly need an OLED monitor to really appreciate it, though. Local dimming isn't good enough.
If you have say a 400 nits display the HDR may actually look worse than SDR. So it really depends on your screen.
Given that monitors report information about their HDR minimum and maximum panel brightness capabilities to the machine they are connected to, any competently-built HDR renderer (whether that be for games or movies or whatever) will be able to take that information and adjust the picture appropriately.
You know the 0-10 brightness slider you have to pick at the start of a game? Imagine setting it to 0 and still being able to spot the faint dark spot. The dynamic range of things you can see is so much expanded.
Early HDR screens were very limited (limited dimming zones, buggy implementation) but if you get one post 2024 (esp the oled ones) they are quite decent. However it needs to be supported at many layers: not just the monitor, but also the operating system, and the content. There are not many games with proper HDR implementation; and even if there is, it may be bad and look worse — the OS can hijack the rendering pipeline and provide HDR map for you (Nvidia RTX HDR) which is a gamble: it may look bleh, but sometimes also better than the native HDR implementation the game has).
But when everything works properly, wow it looks amazing.
Note that HDR only actually changes how bright things can get. There's zero difference in the dark regions. This is made confusing because HDR video marketing often claims it does, but it doesn't actually. HDR monitors do not, in general, have any advantage over SDR monitors in terms of the darks. Local dimming zones improve dark contrast. OLED improves dark contrast. Dynamic contrast improves dark contrast. But HDR doesn't.
This matches my experience; 0 to 5 look identically black if I turn off HDR
But like if you can't see a difference between 0 to 5 in a test pattern like this https://images.app.goo.gl/WY3FhCB1okaRANc28 in SDR but you can in HDR then that just means your SDR factory calibration is bad, or you've fiddled with settings that broke it.
0-10 is so old century. Now it should be 0-2 (0 - default, 1 dark, 2 light,) /s
I'd also be interested in hearing whether it makes sense to look into OLED HDR 400 screens (Samsung, LG) or is it really necessary to get an Asus ProArt which can push the same 1000 nits average as the Apple XDR display (which, mind you, is IPS).
On my Macbook Pro only activates when it needs to but honestly I've only seen one video [1] that impressed me with it, the rest was completely meh. Not sure if its because it's mostly iPhone photography you see in HDR which is overall pretty meh looking anyway.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwCFY6pmaYY I understand this isn't a true HDR process but someone messing with it in post, but it's the only video I've seen that noticeably shows you colors you can't see on a screen otherwise.
As others here have said, OLED monitors are generally excellent at reproducing a HDR signal, especially in a darker space. But they're terrible for productivity work because they'll get burned in for images that don't change a lot. They're fantastic for movies and gaming, though.
There are a few good non-OLED HDR monitors, but not many. I have an AOC Q27G3XMN; its a 27" 1440p 180hz monitor that is good for entry-level HDR, especially in brighter rooms. It has over 1000 nits of brightness, and no major flaws. It only has 336 backlight zones, though, so you might notice some blooming around subtitles or other fine details where there's dark and light content close together. (VA panels are better than IPS at suppressing that, though.) It's also around half the price of a comparable OLED.
Most of the other non-OLED monitors with good HDR support have some other deal-breaking flaws or at least major annoyances, like latency, screwing up SDR content, buggy controls, etc. The Monitors Unboxed channel on YouTube and rtngs.com are both good places to check.
My current monitor is an OLED and HDR in games looks absolutely amazing. My previous was an IPS that supported HDR, but turning it on caused the backlight to crank to the max, destroying black levels and basically defeating the entire purpose of HDR. Local dimming only goes so far.
Yeah, that's kind of what I meant when I said that most monitors that advertise HDR shouldn't.
The AOC monitor is the third or fourth one I've owned that advertised HDR, but the first one that doesn't look like garbage when it's enabled.
I haven't gone oled yet because of both the cost and the risk of burn-in in my use case (lots of coding and other productivity work, occasional gaming).
The advantage of LEDs is they’re brighter. For example, compare two modern Asus ProArt displays: their mini-LED (PA32UCXR) at 1600 nits and their OLED (PA32DC) at 300ish nits. The OLED is 20% more expensive. These two monitors have otherwise comparable specs. Brightness matters a lot for HDR because if you’re in a bright room, the monitor’s peak brightness needs to overpower the room.
Plus for color managed work, I think LED monitors are supposed to retain their calibration well. OLEDs have to be frequently recalibrated.
And so-called micro-LEDs are coming soon, which promise to make “local” so small that it’s imperceptible. I think the near-term future of displays is really good LEDs.
I have a LG 2018 OLED that has some burnt in Minecraft hearts because of that, not from Minecraft itself, but just a few hours of minecraft Youtube video in those settings from the built in youtube client, but virtually no other detectable issues after excessive years of use with static content.
You only see them with fairly uniform colors as a background where color banding would usually be my bigger complaint.
So burn-ins definitely happen, but they are far from being a deal breaker over the obvious benefits you get vs other types of displays.
And driving everything possible in dark mode (white text on dark bg) on those displays is even the logical thing to do. Then you dont need much max brightness anyway and even save some energy.
You can lie as much as you like as an advertiser. At the beginning, HD meant 1080p. Then, 1080p became FullHD, only that 720p to became HD and to make HD digital television possible. (the original SD television is worse than analog)
And thats now that all the LEDs are still fresh. I can't imagine how bad it will be in a few years.
Also, a lot of Software doesn't expect the subpixel arrangement, so text will often look terrible.
For desktop work, don't bother unless your work involves HDR content.
You have to spend really good money to get a display which does HDR properly.
The high-end LCD monitors (with full-array local dimming) barely make any difference, while you'll get a lot of downsides from bad HDR software implementations that struggle to get the correct brightness/gamma and saturation.
IMHO HDR is only worth viewing on OLED screens, and requires a dimly lit environment. Otherwise either the hardware is not capable enough, or the content is mastered for wrong brightness levels, and the software trying to fix that makes it look even worse.
It's late night here so I was reading this article in dark mode, at a low display brightness - and when I got to the HDR photos I had to turn down my display even more to not strain my eyes, then back up again when I scrolled to the text.
For fullscreen content (games, movies) HDR is alright, but for everyday computing it's a pretty jarring experience as a user.
I set my screen brightness to a certain level for a reason. Please don’t just arbitrarily turn up the brightness!
There is no good way to disable HDR on photos for iPhone, either. Sure, you can turn off the HDR on photos on your iphone. But then, when you cast to a different display, the TV tries to display the photos in HDR, and it won’t look half as good.
You might be on to something there. Technically, HDR is mostly about profile signaling and therefore about interop. To support it in mpeg dash or hls media you need to make sure certain codec attributes are mentioned in the xml or m3u8 but the actual media payload stays the same.
Any bit or Bob being misconfigured or misinterpreted in the streaming pipeline will result in problems ranging from slightly suboptimal experience to nothing works.
Besides HDR, "spatial audio" formats like Dolby Atmos are notorious for interop isuues
On both Android & iOS/MacOS it's not that HDR is ignoring your screen brightness, but rather the brightness slider is controlling the SDR range and then yes HDR can exceed that, that's the singular purpose of HDR to be honest. All the other purported benefits of HDR are at best just about HDR video profiles and at worst just nonsense bullshit. The only thing HDR actually does is allow for brighter colors vs. SDR. When used selectively this really enhances a scene. But restraint is hard, and most forms of HDR content production are shit. The HDR images that newer iPhones and Pixel phones are capturing are generally quite good because they are actually restrained, but then ironically both of them have horrible HDR video that's just obnoxiously bright.
Doesn't this mean HDR is ignoring my brightness setting? Looking at the Mac color profiles, the default HDR has some fixed max brightness regardless of the brightness slider. And it's very bright, 1600 nits vs the SDR max of 600 nits. At least I was able to pick another option capping HDR to 600, but that still allows HDR video to force my screen to its normal full brightness even if I dimmed it.
Not exactly because it is still being scaled by your brightness setting. As in, start playing an HDR video and then mess with the brightness slider. You will still see the HDR content getting dimmer/brighter.
It's easier to think about in Apple's EDR terms. 0.0-1.0 is the SDR range, and the brightness slider is changing what the nit value is of "1.0" - is it 100 nits? 300 nits? 50 nits? etc... HDR content (in theory) still has that same 0.0-1.0 portion of the range, and it's still being scaled. However it can exceed that 1.0. It's still being scaled, it's still "respecting" that slider. Just the slider wasn't a brightness limit as you're wanting it to be, but a 1.0 alignment point.
The problem comes when HDR content is disrespectful to that. When it just absolutely slams the brightness, pushing all of its content way past that 1.0 value. This is bad content, and unfortunately it's incredibly common in HDR media due in part to the fact that the original HDR specs are very incomplete and in part because it's a new loudness war.
It's not just the HDR content that gets brighter, but SDR content too. When I test it in Chrome on Android, if an HDR image shows up on screen the phone start overriding the brightness slider completely and making everything brighter, including the phone's system UI.
>The only thing HDR actually does is allow for brighter colors vs. SDR.
Not just brighter, but also darker, so it can preserve detail in dark areas rather than crushing them.
You have an "old" style handling of HDR on Android. Newer/better devices don't do that (specifically those that support https://source.android.com/docs/core/display/mixed-sdr-hdr )
Similarly MacOS/iOS doesn't do that.
> Not just brighter, but also darker, so it can preserve detail in dark areas rather than crushing them.
It does not get darker, and while PQ allocates more bits to the dark region HLG does not. And, more importantly, neither does the actual display panel which are still typically gamma 2.2-2.4 regardless. So PQ's extra precision in the dark areas is ~never utilized other than as tonemapping input, but the resulting output does not have any increased precision in the darks over SDR.
In fact it actually has less precision in the dark areas as the increased display luminance range means the panels native bit depth need to cover more range.
In practice the 'HDR' standards are also about wider color gamuts (than sRGB), and (as mentioned in parallel) packed into more bits, in a different way, so as to minimise banding while keeping file sizes in check.
For context: YouTube automatically edits the volume of videos that have an average loudness beyond a certain threshold. I think the solution for HDR is similar penalization based on log luminance or some other reasonable metric.
I don't see this happening on Instagram any time soon, because bad HDR likely makes view counts go up.
As for the HDR photos in the post, well, those are a bit strong to show what HDR can do. That's why the Mark III beta includes a much tamer HDR grade.
Another related parallel trend recently is that bad AI images get very high view and like counts, so much so that I've lost a lot of motivation for doing real photography because the platforms cease to show them to anyone, even my own followers.
For anyone else who was confused by this, it seems to be a client-side audio compressor feature (not a server-side adjustment) labeled as "Stable Volume". On the web, it's toggleable via the player settings menu.
https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/14106294
I can't find exactly when it appeared but the earliest capture of the help article was from May 2024, so it is a relatively recent feature: https://web.archive.org/web/20240523021242/https://support.g...
I didn't realize this was a thing until just now, but I'm glad they added it because (now that I think about it) it's been awhile since I felt the need to adjust my system volume when a video was too quiet even at 100% player volume. It's a nice little enhancement.
There are still gimmicks, but at least they do not include music so badly clipped as to be unlistenable... hint: go get the DVD or Blu-Ray release of whatever it is and you are likely to enjoy a not clipped album.
It is all about maximizing the overall sonic impact the music is capable of. Now when levels are sane, song elements well differentiated and equalized such that no or only a minor range of frequencies are crushed due to many sounds all competing for them, it will sound, full, great and not tiring!
Thanks audio industry. Many ears appreciate what was done.
No worries. I've friends in various industries doing production who hate the change.
I like it, of course. Losing the volume knob is a direct result of the many abuses.
The stable volume thing is meant to essentially level out all of the peaks and troughs, and IIRC it's actually computed server-side, I think yt-dlp can download stable volume streams if asked to.
I completely understand the desire to address the issue of content authors misusing or intentionally abusing HDR with some kind of auto-limiting algorithm similar to the way the radio 'loudness wars' were addressed. Unfortunately, I suspect it will be difficult, if not impossible, to achieve without also negatively impacting some content applying HDR correctly for artistically expressive purposes. Static photos may be solvable without excessive false positive over-correction but cinematic video is much more challenging due to the dynamic nature of the content.
As a cinemaphile, I'm starting to wonder if maybe HDR on mobile devices simply isn't a solvable problem in practice. While I think it's solvable technically and certainly addressable from a standards perspective, the reality of having so many stakeholders in the mobile ecosystem (hardware, OS, app, content distributors, original creators) with diverging priorities makes whatever we do from a base technology and standards perspective unlikely to work in practice for most users. Maybe I'm too pessimistic but as a high-end home theater enthusiast I'm continually dismayed how hard it is to correctly display diverse HDR content from different distribution sources in a less complex ecosystem where the stakeholders are more aligned and the leading standards bodies have been around for many decades (SMPTE et al).
I find it pretty weird that all tvs and most monitors hide the brightness adjustment under piles and piles of menus when it could be right there in the remote alongside the sound volume buttons. Maybe phones could have hardware brightness buttons too, at least something as easy as it is on adjusting brightness in notebooks that have dedicated brightness fn buttons.
Such brightness slider could also control the amount of tonemapping applied to HDR content. High brightness would mean no to low tonemapping and low brightness would use a very agressive tonemapper producing a similar image to the SDR content along it.
Also note that good audio volume attenuation requires proper loudness contour compensation (as you lower the volume you also increase the bass and treble) for things to sound reasonably good and the "tone" sound well balanced. So, adjusting the tonemapping based on the brightness isn't that far off what we do with audio.
In contrast, my TV will change brightness modes to display HDR content and disables some of the brightness adjustments when displaying HDR content. It can be very uncomfortably bright in a dark room while being excessively dim in a bright room. It requires adjusting settings to a middle ground resulting in a mixed/mediocre experience overall. My wife’s laptop is the worst of all our devices, while reviews seem to praise the display, it has an overreactive adaptive brightness that cannot be disabled (along with decent G2G response but awful B2W/W2B response that causes ghosting).
I think it's because no one wants it.
(It doesn’t help that Windows only allows HDR to be defined in EDID and monitor INF files, and that PC monitors start shutting off calibration features when HDR is enabled because their chipsets can’t keep up — just as most modern Sony televisions can’t do both Dolby Vision and VRR because that requires too much processing power for their design budget.)
What are some of the games where it's necessary?
Some games also have a separate slider https://i.imgur.com/wenBfZY.png for adjusting "paper white", which is the HDR white one might normally associate with matching to SDR reference white (100 nits when in a dark room according to the SDR TV color standards, higher in other situations or standards). Extra note: the peak brightness slider in this game (Red Dead Redemption 2) is the same knob as the brightness slider in the above Battlefield V screenshot)
Let the whole experience be HDR and perhaps it won't be jarring.
If I enable HDR the Firefox ones become a gray mess vs the lights feeling like actual lights in Safari.
edit: Ah, nevermind. It seems Firefox is doing some sort of post-processing (maybe bad tonemapping?) on-the-fly as the pictures start out similar but degrade to washed out after some time. In particular, the "OVERTHROW BOXING CLUB" photo makes this quite apparent.
That's a damn shame Firefox. C'mon, HDR support feels like table stakes at this point.
edit2: Apparently it's not table stakes.
> Browser support is halfway there. Google beat Apple to the punch with their own version of Adaptive HDR they call Ultra HDR, which Chrome 14 now supports. Safari has added HDR support into its developer preview, then it disabled it, due to bugs within iOS.
at which point I would just say to `lux.camera` authors - why not put a big fat warning at the top for users with a Firefox or Safari (stable) browser? With all the emphasis on supposedly simplifying a difficult standard, the article has fallen for one of its most famous pitfalls.
"It's not you. HDR confuses tons of people."
Yep, and you've made it even worse for a huge chunk of people. :shrug: Great article n' all just saying.
Second, the HDR effect seems to be implemented in a very crude way, which causes the whole Android UI (including the Android status bar at the top) to become brighter when HDR content is on screen. That's clearly not right. Though, of course, this might also be some issue of Android rather than Chrome, or perhaps of the Qualcomm graphics driver for my Adreno GPU, etc.
A lot of these design flaws are fixed by Firefox's picture in picture option but for some reason, with the way you coded it, the prompt to pop it out as PIP doesn't show up
"we finally explain what HDR actually means"
Then spends 2/3rds of the article on a tone mapping expedition, only to not address the elephant in the room, that is the almost complete absence of predictable color management in consumer-grade digital environments.
UIs are hardly ever tested in HDR: I don't want my subtitles to burn out my eyes in actual HDR display.
It is here, where you, the consumer, are as vulnerable to light in a proper dark environment for movie watching, as when raising the window curtains on a bright summer morning. (That brightness abuse by content is actually discussed here)
Dolby Vision and Apple have the lead here as a closed platforms, on the web it's simply not predictably possible yet.
Best hope is the efforts of the Color on the Web Community Group from my impression.
https://github.com/w3c/ColorWeb-CG
For example, in video games, "HDR" has been around since the mid '00s, and refers to games that render a wider dynamic range than displays were capable of, and use post-process effects to simulate artifcats like bloom and pupil dilation.
In photography, HDR has almost the opposite meaning of what it does everywhere else. Long and multiple exposures are combined to create an image that has very little contrast, bringing out detail in a shot that would normally be lost in shadows or to overexposure.
Bad HDR boils down to poor taste and the failure of platforms to rein it in. You can't fix bad HDR by switching encodings any more than you can fix global warming by switching from Fahrenheit to Celsius.
Color management and handling HDR in UIs is probably a bit out of scope.
No. Because it's written for the many casual photographers we've spoken with who are confused and asked for an explainer.
> Then spends 2/3rds of the article on a tone mapping expedition, only to not address the elephant in the room, that is the almost complete absence of predictable color management in consumer-grade digital environments.
That's because this post is about HDR and not color management, which is different topic.
To be fair, it would be pretty weird if you found your own post off-putting :P
On the HN frontpage, people are likely thinking of one of at least three things:
HDR as display tech (hardware)
HDR as wide gamut data format (content)
HDR as tone mapping (processing)
...
So when the first paragraph says we finally explain what HDR actually means, it set me off on the wrong foot—it comes across pretty strongly for a term that’s notoriously context-dependent. Especially in a blog post that reads like a general explainer rather than a direct Q&A response when not coming through your apps channels.
Then followed up by The first HDR is the "HDR mode" introduced to the iPhone camera in 2010. caused me to write the comment.
For people over 35 with even the faintest interest in photography, the first exposure to the HDR acronym probably didn’t arrive with the iPhone in 2010, but HDR IS equivalent to Photomatix style tone mapping starting in 2005 as even mentioned later. The ambiguity of the term is a given now. I think it's futile to insist or police one meaning other the other in non-scientific informal communication, just use more specific terminology.
So the correlation of what HDR means or what sentiment it evokes in people by age group and self-assesed photography skill might be something worthwhile to explore.
The post get's a lot better after that. That said, I really did enjoy the depth. The dive into the classic dodge and burn and the linked YouTube piece. One explainer at a time makes sense—and tone mapping is a good place to start. Even tone mapping is fine in moderation :)
Often, we don't get that and this topic, plus my relative ignorance on it, welcomed the post as written.
Now I even remember the 2005 HDR HL2 Lost Coast Demo was a thing 20 years ago: https://bit-tech.net/previews/gaming/pc/hl2_hdr_overview/1/
Niche, style points first kind of thing for sure.
Meta: old enough that getting either a new color not intended, or an additional one visible on screen and having the machine remain able to perform was a big deal.
Back then, it was fun at times, bit was also limiting in ways sometimes hard to fathom ways.
Things are crazy good now, BTW. Almost anything is a few clicks away. The CRT is old, panels so damn good..
Yeah, I had a full halt and process exception on that line too. I guess all the research, technical papers and standards development work done by SMPTE, Kodak, et al in the 1990s and early 2000s just didn't happen? Turns out Apple invented it all in 2010 (pack up those Oscars and Emmys awarded for technical achievement and send'em back boys!)
It's about HDR from the perspective of still photography, in your app, on iOS, in the context of hand-held mobile devices. The post's title ("What Is HDR, Anyway?"), content level and focus would be appropriate in the context of your company's social media feeds for users of your app - which is probably the audience and context it was written for. However in the much broader context of HN, a highly technical community whose interests in imaging are diverse, the article's content level and narrow focus aren't consistent with the headline title. It seems written at a level appropriate for novice users.
If this post was titled "How does Halide handle HDR, anyway?" or even "How should iOS photo apps handle HDR, anyway?" I'd have no objection about the title's promise not matching the content for the HN audience. When I saw the post's headline I thought "Cool! We really need a good technical deep dive into the mess that is HDR - including tech, specs, standards, formats, content acquisition, distribution and display across content types including stills, video clips and cinematic story-telling and diverse viewing contexts from phones to TVs to cinemas to VR." When I started reading and the article only used photos to illustrate concepts best conveyed with color gradient graphs PLUS photos, I started to feel duped by the title.
(Note: I don't use iOS or your app but the photo comparison of the elderly man near the end of the article confused me. From my perspective (video, cinematography and color grading), the "before" photo looks like a raw capture with flat LUT (or no LUT) applied. Yet the text seemed to imply Halide's feature was 'fixing' some problem with the image. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding since I don't know the tool(s) or workflow but I don't see anything wrong with the original image. It's what you want in a flat capture for later grading.)
That is hardly the fault of the authors though. The article seems entirely appropriate for its intended audience, and they can’t control who posts it on a site like HN.
It's from the perspective of still photography, video, film, desktop computing, decades of research papers, and hundreds of years of analog photography, condensed into something approachable.
> However in the much broader context of HN, a highly technical community whose interests in imaging are diverse, the article's content level and narrow focus aren't consistent with the headline title. It seems written at a level appropriate for novice users.
"On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity"
To be clear, I didn't submit the post, and I never submit my posts. I don't care if my posts make a splash here, and kind of dread when they do because anything involving photography or video attracts the most annoying "well actually" guys on the Internet.
> When I saw the post's headline I thought "Cool! We really need a good technical deep dive into the mess that is HDR - including tech, specs, standards, formats, content acquisition, distribution and display across content types including stills, video clips and cinematic story-telling and diverse viewing contexts from phones to TVs to cinemas to VR."
The post is called, "What is HDR," and the introduction explains the intended audience. That audience is much larger than "people who want to read about ITU-R Recommendation BT.2100." But if you think people are interested in a post like that, by all means write it.
I predict HDR content on the web will eventually be disabled or mitigated on popular browsers similarly to how auto-playing audio content is no longer allowed [1]
Spammers and advertisers haven't caught on yet to how abusively attention grabbing eye-searingly bright HDR content can be, but any day now they will and it'll be everywhere.
1. https://hacks.mozilla.org/2019/02/firefox-66-to-block-automa...
High dynamic resolution has always been about tone mapping. Post-sRGB color profile support is called “Wide color” these days, has been available for twenty years or more on all DSLR cameras (such as Nikon ProPhoto RGB supported in-camera on my old D70), and has nothing to do with the dynamic range and tone mapping of the photo. It’s convenient that we don’t have to use EXR files anymore, though!
An HDR photo in sRGB will have the same defects beyond peak saturation at any given hue point, as an SDR photo in sRGB would, relative to either in DCI-P3 or ProPhoto. Even a two-bit black-or-white “what’s color? on or off pixels only” HyperCard dithered image file can still be HDR or SDR. In OKLCH, the selected luminosity will also impact the available chroma range; at some point you start spending your new post-sRGB peak chroma on luminosity instead; but the exact characteristic of that tradeoff at any given hue point is defined by the color profile algorithm, not by whether the photo is SDR or HDR, and the highest peak saturation possible for each hue is fixed, whatever luminosity it happens to be at.
The photo capture HDR is good. That's a totally different thing and shouldn't have had its name stolen.
About HDR on phones, I think they are the blight of photography. No more shadows and highlights. I find they are good at capturing family moments, but not as a creative tool.
I still use it myself but I need to redo the build system and release it with an updated LibRaw... not looking forward to that.
Slide film has probably a third the dynamic range of negative film and is meant as the final output fit for projection to display.
HDR is what enables you to capture both the darkest shadow detail and the brightest highlight detail.
With SDR, one or both are often simply just lost. It might come down to preference — if you're an "auto" shooter and like the effect of the visual information at the edges of the available dynamic range being truncated, SDR is for you.
Some people prefer to capture that detail and have the ability to decide whether and how to diminish or remove it, with commensurately more control over the artistic impact. For those folks, HDR is highly desirable.
All this aside, HDR and high brightness are different things - HDR is just a representational thing. You can go full send on your SDR monitor as well, you'll just see more banding. The majority of the article is just content marketing about how they perform automatic tonemapping anyways.
That’s a consequence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptation_(eye). If you look at 1000 nits on a display in bright sunlight, with your eyes adapted to the bright surroundings, the display would look rather dim.
It’s infuriating.
e.g. Open this in macOS Chrome: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq7H6PI4JF8
Literal snort.
This is also true for consumers. I don't own a single 4k or HDR display. I probably won't own an HDR display until my TV dies, and I probably won't own a 4k display until I replace my work screen, at which point I'll also replace one of my home screens so I can remote into it without scaling.
I also have a screen which has a huge gamut and blows out colors in a really nice way (a bit like the aftereffects of hallucinogens, it has colors other screens just don't) and you don't have to touch any settings.
My OLED TV has HDR and it actually seems like HDR content makes a difference while regular content is still "correct".
It's funny because the display I have that does this was a relatively premium Odyssey G7 which at $700 isn't at all a cheap monitor. (I like it, it's just not at all HDR, or at least not perceivably so compared to Apple devices and an OLED TV)
People in the HN echo chamber over-estimate hardware adoption rates. For example, there are millions of people who went straight from CDs to streaming, without hitting the iPod era.
A few years ago on HN, there was someone who couldn't wrap their brain around the notion that even though VCRs were invented in the early 1960's that in 1980, not everyone owned one, or if they did, they only had one for the whole family.
Normal people aren't magpies who trash their kit every time something shiny comes along.
Who?
There was about a decade there where everyone who had the slightest interest in music had an mp3 player of some kind, at least in the 15-30 age bracket.
1: Well my car would play MP3s burned to CDs in its CD player; not sure if that counts.
I finished high school in 2001 and didn't immediately go to college, so I just didn't have a need for a personal music player anymore. I was nearly always at home or at work, and I drove a car that actually had an MP3 CD player. I felt no need to get an iPod.
In 2009, I started going to college, but then also got my first smartphone, the Motorola Droid, which acted as my portable MP3 player for when I was studying in the library or taking mass transit.
If you were going to school or taking mass transit in the middle of the '00s, then you were probably more likely to have a dedicated MP3 player.
Point of clarification: While the technology behind the VCR was invented in the '50s and matured in the '60s, consumer-grade video tape systems weren't really a thing until Betamax and VHS arrived in 1975 and 1976 respectively.
Early VCRs were also incredibly expensive, with prices ranging from $3,500 to almost $10,000 after adjusting for inflation. Just buying into the VHS ecosystem at the entry level was a similar investment to buying an Apple Vision Pro today.
Don't feel like you have to. I bought a giant fancy TV with it, and even though it's impressive, it's kinda like ultra-hifi-audio. I don't miss it when I watch the same show on one of my older TVs.
If you ever do get it, I suggest doing for a TV that you watch with your full attention, and watching TV / movies in the dark. It's not very useful on a TV that you might turn on while doing housework; but very useful when you are actively watching TV with your full attention.
Also in my country (Italy) TV transmissions are 1080i at best, a lot are still 570i (PAL resolution). Streaming media can be 4K (if you have enough bandwidth to stream it at that resolution, which I don't have at my house). Sure, if you download pirated movies you find it at 4K, and if you have the bandwidth to afford it... sure.
But even there, sometimes is better a well done 1080p movie than an hyper compressed 4K one, since you see compression artifacts.
To me 1080p, and maybe even 720p, is enough for TV vision. Well, sometimes I miss the CRT TVs, they where low resolution but for example had a much better picture quality than most modern 4K LCD TV where black scenes are gray (I know there is OLED, but is too expensive and has other issues).
Kind of crazy no one thought of this aspect and we just march on to higher resolution and the required hardware for that.
My own movie collection is mostly 2-4GB SDR 1080p files and looks wonderful.
Jokes aside, when a 4k TV has a good upscaler, it's hard to tell the difference between 1080 and 4k. Not impossible; I certainly can, but 1080 isn't distracting.
Like a lot of things, it’s weird how some people are more sensitive to visual changes. For example:
- At this point, I need 120hz displays. I can easily notice when my wife’s phone is in power saver mode at 60hz.
- 4k vs 1080p. This is certainly more subtle, but I definitely miss detail in lower res content.
- High bitrate. This is way more important than 4k vs 1080p or even HDR. But it’s so easy to tell when YouTube lowers the quality setting on me, or when a TV show is streaming at a crappy bitrate.
- HDR is tricky, because it relies completely on the content creator to do a good job producing HDR video. When done well, the image basically sparkles, water looks actually wet, parts of the image basically glow… it looks so good.
I 100% miss this HDR watching equivalent content on other displays. The problem is that a lot of content isn’t produced to take advantage of this very well. The HDR 4k Blu-ray of several Harry Potter movies, for example, has extremely muted colors and dark scenes… so how is the image going to pop? I’m glad we’re seeing more movies rely on bright colors and rich, contrasty color grading. There are so many old film restorations that look excellent in HDR because the original color grade had rich, detailed, contrasty colors.
On top of that, budget HDR implementations, ESPECIALLY in PC monitors, just don’t get very bright. Which means their HDR is basically useless. It’s impossible to replicate the “shiny, wet look” of really good HDR water if the screen can’t get bright enough to make it look shiny. Plus, it needs to be selective about what gets bright, and cheap TVs don’t have a lot of backlighting zones to make that happen very well.
So whereas I can plug in a 4k 120hz monitor and immediately see the benefit in everything I do for normal PC stuff, you can’t get that with HDR unless you have good source material and a decent display.
Yeah, the judder is a lot more noticeable on older TVs now that I have a 120hz TV. IMO, CRTs handled this the best, but I'm not going back.
I think the industry is strangling itself putting "DisplayHDR 400" certification on edgelit/backlit LCD displays. In order for HDR to look "good" you either need high resolution full array local dimming backlighting (which still isn't perfect), or a panel type that doesn't use any kind of backlighting like OLED.
Viewing HDR content on these cheap LCDs often looks worse than SDR content. You still get the wider color gamut, but the contrast just isn't there. Local dimming often loses all detail in shadows whenever there is something bright on the screen.
I absolutely loathe consuming content on a mobile screen, but its the reality is the vast majority are using phone and tablets most the time.
The problem starts with sending HDR content to SDR-only devices, or even just other HDR-standards. Not even talking about printing here.
This step can inherently only be automated so much, because it's also a stylistic decision on what information to keep or emphasize. This is an editorial process, not something you want to emburden casual users with. What works for some images can't work for others. Even with AI the preference would still need to be aligned.
[edit]
Some googling suggested I check in the Netflix app; at least Netflix thinks my phone does not support HDR. (Unihertz Jelly Max)
https://docs.krita.org/en/general_concepts/colors/bit_depth....
https://docs.krita.org/en/general_concepts/colors/color_spac...
https://docs.krita.org/en/general_concepts/colors/scene_line...
It didn't take very long to learn, and it turned out to be extremely important in the work I did during the early days at Waymo and later at Motional.
I wanted to pass along this fun video from several years ago that discusses HDR: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkQJdaGGVM8 . It's short and fun, I recommend it to all HN readers.
Separately, if you want a more serious introduction to digital photography, I recommend the lectures by Marc Levoy from his Stanford course: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7HrM-fk_Rc&list=PL8ungNrvUY... . I believe he runs his own group at Adobe now after leading a successful effort at Google making their pixel cameras the best in the industry for a couple of years. (And then everyone more-or-less caught up, just like with most tech improvements in the history of smartphones).
I don't know about Pentax, Panasonic or OMD (formerly Olympus)
Sony makes sensors for pretty much everyone else. But it's well known that other folks e.g. Nikon have been able to get better signal-to-noise with Sony-made sensors than Sony themselves. I think Panasonic used to make their own sensors but with some recent re-org, that got spun out.
It's been widely rumored that Leica uses Sony sensors, but this gets repeatedly denied by people claiming inside information. We know that Leica was getting 24MP CMOS sensors from CMOSIS in the 2012 timeframe, but CMOSIS has since been acquired by OSRAM, and there hasn't been any verifiable information since then, whether confirming or denying a continued business relationship.
https://blog.adobe.com/en/publish/2023/10/10/hdr-explained
Greg Benz Photography maintains a list of software here:
https://gregbenzphotography.com/hdr-display-photo-software/
I'm not sure what FOSS options there are; it's difficult to search for given that "HDR" can mean three or four different things in common usage.
This. I can always tell when someone "gets" software development when they either understand (or don't) that computers can't read minds or infer intent like a person can.
My understanding is most SDR TVs and computer screens have displays about 200-300 nits (aka cd/m²). Is that the correct measure of the range of the display? The brightest white is 300 nits brighter than the darkest black?