Ask HN: How to Deal with a Bad Manager?
I’ve been working for few years in a large company (think faang as a good approximation) in one of the departments under 1 manager. Relatively good one.
Then by the will of higher ups some teams got drastically reorged and I ended up in a different team with a new manager. Terrible one.
Micromanagement, lack of vision, poor communication, poor planning, zero support, full package. About half the team share similar view. The other half seems like just playing along.
To add more context the overall management culture in the company is neither toxic nor great. There is definitely hierarchy and go over her head doesn’t sound like a good idea. Internal movements are basically non existent.
I still care about the mission and about what I do. Though not as much as before this all happened.
What would you do in my shoes to make the best of the situation?
89 comments
[ 2.6 ms ] story [ 104 ms ] thread- If your employer is doing well, it is better to stay longer and get promoted from within. (Based on "Relatively good one" I'll assume this is the case.)
- If your employer reorganizes frequently, is supports the "Stick it out case."
- If your employer encourages people to find their own new jobs within the company, that is usually the best route. (This isn't always the situation. In many companies you need your current boss's blessing) Based on your explanation it seems like this isn't the case.
- If you are learning a lot, add that to the case to stay.
- If your new manager has ethical issues (as opposed to just competence issues) start your search right now. Not 30 minutes from now. Not tomorrow. Not next week. Now.
- Same if you're put on any kind of performance improvement plan (PIP). Don't think "I'm competent, I can work my way out of it". PIPs are paper trails to keep them from getting sued. Consider the duration of the PIP to be your severance.
- As you've figured out, it's rarely a good idea to go over your manager's head unless you have an outstanding relationship with the CEO or similar who would ask you later "Why didn't you come to me first?"
- If you have to leave, find a new job first. Then be professional on the way out, and don't throw your manager under the bus. Just say, "I really enjoyed working for you, a dream opportunity came up." You never know when they'll be asked for a back-door reference check on you.
- Similarly, don't badmouth your boss when you interview. (You don't want to seem like someone easily discontented.) You can say "It's now or never to leave, and I think your company has a much better future. I'd rather invest in my career there."
Good luck navigating this!
- Asking you to lie about the status of your work in a status report. (Hiding bad news)
- Deliberately misrepresenting how much something will cost. (Or did cost)
- Asking you to interview someone from a competitor purely to gain market intelligence.
- Falsely blaming another team for mistakes.
- Misrepresenting financial metrics or KPIs.
Micromanagement can be bad, though sometimes it's needed and sometimes it's a symptom of a weak manager doing what they need to in order to stay accountable. Sometimes it's a control tool for sociopaths. When the ethical boundaries are crossed, it's a symnptom of sociopathy.
It’s almost always easier to get promoted by changing jobs where you control the narrative than try to go through the internal process. Besides that because of salary compression, you usually get paid less even after a promotion than someone coming in at that level. Yes this is true at FAANG size companies too.
I’ve worked as a consultant with small and large organizations for most of my career, and I’ve seen this exact situation play out more times than I can count.
If I could go back, I’d tell my younger self not to stick around under bad leadership or in an unhealthy environment. It’s rarely worth it. Even if you care deeply about the mission, a toxic manager will slowly drain your motivation and confidence. I stayed in a few of those situations too long, thinking I had to tough it out. I didn’t, and neither do you.
The projects I’m most proud of were with teams I genuinely enjoyed working and growing with. That’s not a coincidence.
Start quietly looking. The right environment can bring out the best in you in ways this one won’t.
I really hope it works out for you.
Don't be a hero in the organization. In the past job. I essentially took over my manager by consistently outshining them. Then they made some unforced errors and I took advantage of the moment, made a political move, and forced their displacement. It was a distinctly unpleasant experience and something I took no glee from doing. Moreover, if you look at the grand scheme of things, nobody remembers that, and you're neither a hero to yourself nor those around you for it. It was a year or two I could have spent finding a productive, healthy, and more facilitating organization.
The one thing I'd add is, be aware of the politics of the organization.
Is this new manager seen by his bosses to be doing a great job? Or are they still trying to get traction?
I once went from the best manager in my career straight to the worst one due to a reorg. But after a couple months it was starting to become clear upper management didn't think he was so great either. So I waited it out and the new manager lasted less than a year. So I didn't have to give up and leave a team & job I otherwise enjoyed. Had I reacted too quickly I probably would've quit in disgust and later regretted it when the bad manager was removed.
Your manager is supposed to be the responsible adult in the room, and competent at their job. If that's not true and they're making your life worse, you have no obligation to suffer that.
If you possibly can, make this clear to your manager's manager. Even if it's only at the exit interview.
I don't think GP was suggesting quitting in a huff, but it's important enough to reiterate.
It's always always always easier to find a job when you have one.
I get the stress of looking, interviewing and negotiating for a new job is a lot on top of the work from your current job.
But, fair or not, there's a worry about hiring a lemon when someone is not currently employed. It's something one can and should address, but it is easier if one does not have to.
Especially in this job marketing (at least in the USA) when getting hired is difficult for everyone.
This doesn't always happen, but it has happened often enough to me, so you might think about the possibility in advance and what you would do.
For myself, I have NEVER taken the counter-offer and stayed. When I have had a bad manager, I regarded that as a failure of my manager's manager as well. I didn't think the situation would instantly be fixed, miraculously, if they did fire my boss or move me to a new position in the same company. But that is just my experience. It would be good if others who have had a different and successful experience staying would speak up too, so you can get the full picture of possible outcomes.
If they don't offer incentive enough to make staying actually worth it, then do not, no matter what guilt trips are applied.
If you get an opportunity for an exit interview, write out a thing pointing out every way in which the terrible manager is terrible.
Encourage your co-workers to do the same.
Either tough it out until the next reorg and hope for the best, or start working on your resume :(
If you do stay, there's a good chance the manager will eventually be found out. You can play a subtle sabotage game in the background to expedite it. Don't save them from their mistakes, and undermine them by talking about the mistakes. Don't blame them but rather let conversation about mistakes lead them to the same conclusion.
Personally I'm not patient enough to stick around anywhere, so I definitely wouldn't in your case unless I really cared.
Communication is key. I have communicated "feelings" in various ways and gestures. Micromanagement? Respond with sarcastic comment "wow so specific, good thing I left my brain at home today". Lack of vision? Respond with "after a few runs in circles trying to find our way, we will eventually get there ... eventually".
Next, master a little bit of psych. "other half seems like playing along" tells me they are fawning while the first half are either freeze, fight, or flight but mostly freeze response also known as deer-headlight response. This person might have insecurity issues. This person might be distracted with grandeur of rank. The best way to work with them is come up with a few praises to keep them calm (like how Trump's people keep him calm).
Third, let go of your ideas and ambitions and "leave your brain at home". This manager might be dimwitted but eventually the person will get smarter and you will get a first row seat to this adventure.
Fourth, find power plays to make this person behave better.
Five, and this is the most important ... be LOYAL and let this person know you have their back. Let them know that each personal advantage of yours will be used to support the team. When you see something wrong, whisper to them and let them know.
But if this person is family, and/or this person takes advantage of you, then none of my tips work because it only works on people who want to maintain their reputation. The person I work with wants to impress me and gets anxiety attacks when I know the person lacks a few skills.
I do not author this lightly and hope by doing so it provides an impetus for introspection.
Do with this intervention what you wish.
EDIT:
I do not know you nor your situation, work or otherwise.
What I do know is pain.
The post to which I responded has many pain indicators, or at least that is what I see when reading it. Perhaps I am just projecting though.
In the event I am not experiencing a form of projection, here is what I would like to share:
The last one can be both the most obvious and most difficult to internalize.My advice is very different from “run”, assuming running is not an option. I want you to imagine a person who has never had too many opportunities in their life, and works in a downtrodden environment. And does not have the qualities to work somewhere better. Now this same person has wife and kids. The only thoughts that come from this is hopelessness.
In this hopelessness, minute incremental improvements is a huge world of difference. Communication, even snarkiness, will shake things. Praise will keep situations cool. Providing Safety will keep your opportunities open. I fundamentally believe that these three things at least will allow for improvements in the person.
As for your points, suffering through pain (coming from a superior or subordinate, or the environment) will make it worse, either hardening the heart or tearing it down. That is where mastering the psychology of the oppressor comes in. Knowing who you work with helps to cope with the pressure. Think of it as knowing the bully so you won’t get bullied. Retribution is not the intention, just communication. Communicate the full problem no matter how difficult it may be. And if the problem is with the person themselves, make it humorous. Codependency makes two people similar in nature. This would be the opposite of improvement.
On reflecting on my comment, I think it was a bit rushed and did not go fully in depth. It sounds very difficult to grasp. I apologize to everyone. If I could delete it I would.
IMHO, don't worry about the downvotes, but instead take joy in our opportunity to have this discussion. Again, just my $0.02 and all that. :-)
> My advice is very different from “run”, assuming running is not an option. I want you to imagine a person who has never had too many opportunities in their life, and works in a downtrodden environment. And does not have the qualities to work somewhere better. Now this same person has wife and kids. The only thoughts that come from this is hopelessness.
My mentor lived this experience for most of his career. He had a wife and child, so chose income stability over optimal work environment for reasons I am sure you can relate. It made me sad the things he had to put up with, but I understand why he did.
Ultimately, he achieved his goal of providing for his family. However, the personal cost was high.
> On reflecting on my comment, I think it was a bit rushed and did not go fully in depth. It sounds very difficult to grasp. I apologize to everyone. If I could delete it I would.
Again, IMHO, sharing your thoughts/situation honestly is the important thing, even if others (myself included) do not agree with how it was worded. If we do not get conflict/pain off of our chest, out of our system, it can build up in our psyche much like a cut can become infected.
If anyone needs to apologize, it is me for having initially replied in such an aggressive manner. I hope you accept my apology for having done so.
EDIT:
Clarified the phrasing of "do not agree with same" to be "do not agree with how it was worded".
I would also add, look out for yourself. No one is going to look out for you - and be careful who you talk to.
Also, this is a tricky job market. I ran into a similar situation years ago, tried to fix it, and ended up just switching companies since it was a smaller outfit and I fell out of love with the project.
I think the safest thing for you to do, is to try and secure a transfer, or if you have to, a new job outside the company. This took me months, it might take some time. So be ready to knuckle down if you gotta.
On your way out, tell your skip what's going on, and how much you like the project and the mission. Maybe, just maybe, they'll fix the management problem and invite you back.
Most of the time managers aren’t bad, they just aren’t partially good. They want you to jump up or down in a particular way.
Whatever, as long as you don’t mess with my money I’ll do what you want. The rare truly shit bosses I’ve had would lie to me about my own pay. In one exceptional case they decided to not pay me until 60 days after I started. This wasn’t communicated until after I worked there for a month.
Another instance I won’t talk about.
Then again, I did quit 2 jobs just because my manager was an idiot. If I find a better job anyway why not. Life is too short to deal with stupid people
A lot of this stuff gets caught by those processes
Or you can find a new employer.
Or you can try to outlast your manager.
Over 25 years at my Megacorp I’ve outlasted many many useless first levels, and only found the need to change teams once.
I am currently in a situation where my useless first level got promoted and is now my skip, and he has hired TWO equally useless new K levels to replace him. We call them “The Orange Cats” as they collectively share one brain cell and no one is ever sure who possesses it on a given day.
If you can’t leave try going above and beyond so you’re noticed by another manager with more clout.
What tends to happen normally is you either work twice as hard to do the job as you want to do it AND meet your manager's random demands, or you feel like shit for not meeting your manager's demands, or you eat shit because of how they are feeling that day or whatever other nonsense a bad manager may dump on you.
As Eleanor Roosevelt famously said: "No one can make you feel bad without your permission." So the first step is to put on some thick skin.
And I am talking about a bad manager kind of like how people talk about handling a bully. Because, without much context, I know that they have power over you and that you fundamentally disagree with then. So don't try to change them and don't change yourself.
This is the only sane way to move forward without burning out quickly or feeling like shit all the time. Best of luck.
The 80% of bad managers thrive in the ambiguity of their performance. They want to touch processes, and projects, and meetings and schedules, and things, to get their fingerprints on as much stuff as possible, without making a change substantive enough that it could make things noticeably worse. That way they can say they had an effect, but without the risk of a change that could backfire.
If you and a bunch of coworkers politely ask to transfer teams (not all at once), but spread out over a few weeks. Management will usually scramble to figure out which of their changes was actually impactful in the wrong way. Your boss doesn't know what he's doing, upper management doesn't either. They just want the big salary, and the diffuse responsibility.
Put yourself in their shoes: You're in charge of a team, you can't even really tell how it's going because it's just beyond your skillset, and now there are a bunch of people who don't like working on the team. Or the guy above him: You moved things around, and now it turns out one of your managers totally dropped the ball on the new team, and now you have to do extra work to retain and move people. Contact with reality is brutal.
Micromanagers are impulsive, have a short attention span and tend to get their story wrong.
Keeping records offers some protection against accusations behavior from those people.
Ask for complete requirements, estimates that are as refined as possible and don't go on record agreeing to unrealistic timelines.
Do not confront your manager no matter how much provocation is involved.
The effects of bad managers take way to long for any accountability to take place. There's to much lag between cause and effect with managers and there isn't direct impact except towards their employees.
Practically, plan your exit. Build your network within the org and outside of it. Keep up with those coffee chats and casual zoom meetups. Remain friendly to others in the org. Cultivate a skill or expertise outside of your current role that could be a stepping stone out of the org. Remain ultra professional at all times eg never badmouth the boss (but dont offer false praise either).
If you have the mental energy, you might also try this, but be warned it can be very difficult: try to understand why your manager is how they are. Every villain is the hero in their own story. They believe that they have to act in a certain way. It's possible that they are irredeemable little martinets, but far more likely that they are inexperienced and flailing around, grabbing onto markers of authority to give themselves a sense of control instead of facing their fears. If you want an intellectual project and iff you can disassociate yourself from the impact, you might try figuring it out and using the knowledge to form a relationship grounded in a better sense of reality.
> Micromanagement, lack of vision, poor communication, poor planning, zero support, full package.
This isn't going to get any better. More likely it will get worse over time as your new manager is under more stress to deliver on promises made, without the requisite planning and/or consultation with their team needed.
> About half the team share similar view. The other half seems like just playing along.
Experience suggests the latter group shares the same view as the former, but have other priorities (family, stock options, retirement, etc.) outweighing sharing them. This is not a judgement nor a bad thing. It just is.
> I still care about the mission and about what I do. Though not as much as before this all happened.
This is an inevitable transition resulting from this scenario. A cheeky phrase for this is "beating the care out of you."
> What would you do in my shoes to make the best of the situation?
Make as few waves as possible; do what you are assigned to do ethically.
Take your time to identify an ideal opportunity in another company.
Say nothing of the job search.
Only move on to another gig if you have an employment agreement in place.