A big thing missing is swapping out dependencies in unsafe languages for ones written in safe languages.
Usually there are only a couple places that actually deal with user controlled data, so switching to safe dependencies for things like making thumbnails for pdf files can be effective.
Edit: One more thing is compiling unsafe code to web assembly or other forms of sandboxing it was not mentioned.
Incremental replacement of critical dependencies also offers a practical migration path for large legacy codebases where complete rewrites are economically infeasible.
- it conflates data race protection with memory safety, and it does so inconsistently. Java and C# are mentioned as MSLs and yet they totally let you race. More fundamentally, data races aren’t the thing that attackers exploit except when those data races do lead to actual memory corruption (like use after free, double free, out of bounds, access to allocator metadata etc). So it’s more precise to not mention data races freedom as a requirement for memory safety, both because otherwise languages like Java and C# don’t meet the definition despite being included in the list and because data races in the presence of memory safety are not a big deal from a security standpoint.
- The document fails to mention to mention Fil-C. It would be understandable if it was mentioned with caveats (“new project”, “performance blah blah”) but not mentioning it at all is silly.
Memory safety is like the global warming of the software industry. Millions of careers depend on treating the problem and nobody wants the cure. I imagine Fil-C would be about as popular with the DoD as geoengineering / nuclear power are with environmentalists. Your project is so good that it's like a glitch in the matrix. Only people like Carmack and Musk are going to understand its value.
> Memory safety is like the global warming of the software industry.
So it's an insidious long term issue that challenges our systems which reward short term thinking, and will slowly crush us, if we don't do anything about it?
Hmm, I take it that the situation is that there are a number of vendors/providers/distros/repos who could be distributing your memory-safe builds, but are currently still distributing unsafe builds?
I wonder if an organization like the Tor project [1] would be more motivated to "officially" distribute a Fil-C build, being that security is the whole point of their product. (I'm talking just their "onion router" [2], not (necessarily) the whole browser.)
I could imagine that once some organizations start officially shipping Fil-C builds, adoption might accelerate.
Also, have you talked to the Ladybird browser people? They seemed to be taking an interested in Fil-C.
Tor wants to move to Rust, and they aren't happy with their C codebase. They want to expand use of multi-threading, and C has been too fragile for that.
This is a very sensible way to pick a technology for a government.
Having a cool proof of concept, with a bus factor of 1, and having a solution that countless government agencies can depend on for multi-million-dollar decades-long software projects are very different things.
They can't just depend out of the blue on you personally maintaining "Fil's Unbelievable Garbage Collector" for the lifetime of the government's projects. Maybe you believe they could, but it takes way more legwork to give such assurance to a government.
They list TRACTOR under projects they've already funded (and crucially, not among solutions they recommend yet). Apply for funding for Fil-C, and if it gets accepted, it'll probably get listed there too.
The TRACTOR approach also has higher tolerance to being an experimental project, because it's one-time conversion of C to Rust. It only needs to work once, not continuously for decades. The Rust-lang org is set up to offer serious long-term support, and is way past having a critical dependency on a single developer.
A definition of memory safety without data race freedom may be more precise but arguably less complete.
It is correct that data races in a garbage collected language are difficult to turn into exploits.
The problem is that data races in C and C++ do in fact get combined with other memory safety bugs into exploits.
A definition from first principles is still missing, but imagine it takes the form of "all memory access is free from UB". Then whether the pointer is in-bounds, or whether no thread is concurrently mutating the location seem to be quite similar constraints.
Rust does give ways to control concurrency, eg via expressing exclusive access through &mut reference. So there is also precedent that the same mechanisms can be used to ensure validity of reference (not dangling) as well as absence of concurrent access.
> More fundamentally, data races aren’t the thing that attackers exploit except when those data races do lead to actual memory corruption (like use after free, double free, out of bounds, access to allocator metadata etc).
This is absolutely not true. One of the classic data races is when you do a set of operations like this non-atomically:
Which is a huge security vulnerability because it lets people double spend. Alice buys something for $1000 and something for $1 and instead of debiting her account by $1001 it debits it by $1 because the write for the second transaction clobbers the balance reduction from the first one.
Another common one is symbolic links. You check the target of a symbolic link and then access it, but between the check and the access the link changed and now you're leaking secrets or overwriting privileged data.
Data races are serious vulnerabilities completely independent of memory safety.
> Java and C# are mentioned as MSLs and yet they totally let you race.
In Java a data race means loss of sequential consistency. Humans generally don't understand programs which lack sequential consistency so a typical Java team probably can't debug the program, but the program still always has well defined behaviour - and chances are you don't want to debug the weird non-sequentially consistent behaviour anyway, you just want them to fix the data race.
In C# data races are not too dangerous for trivial objects which are valid for all bit patterns. If you race an integer k, well, now k is smashed, don't think too hard about the value of k, it does have some value but it won't go well for you to try to reason about the value. For a complex object like a hash table, it's Undefined Behaviour.
Meanwhile in C or C++ all data races are immediate UB, you lose, game over.
> MSLs such as Ada, C#, Delphi/Object Pascal, Go, Java, Python, Ruby, Rust, and Swift offer built-in protections against memory safety issues
They offer default protections that can be easily overridden in most of those languages. Some of them require you to use those overrides to implement common data structures.
> MSLs can prevent entire classes of vulnerabilities, such as buffer overflows, dangling pointers, and numerous other Common Weakness Enumeration (CWE) vulnerabilities.
If used a certain way.
> Android team made a strategic decision to prioritize MSLs, specifically Rust and Java, for all new development
Was that /all/ they did?
> Invest initially in training, tools, and refactoring. This investment can usually be offset by long-term savings through reduced downtime, fewer vulnerabilities, and enhanced developer efficiency.
That is an exceedingly dubious claim to make in general.
It is also worth mentioning that not all memory safety vulns are exploitable or have a theoretical exploitation vector. Many these days are similar to theoretical crypto vulns in that "some day" the capability might be developed. It isn't just exploit mitigations but secure development practices that make it hard enough to where even theoretical exploitation isn't viable.
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[ 4.7 ms ] story [ 55.8 ms ] threadUsually there are only a couple places that actually deal with user controlled data, so switching to safe dependencies for things like making thumbnails for pdf files can be effective.
Edit: One more thing is compiling unsafe code to web assembly or other forms of sandboxing it was not mentioned.
- it conflates data race protection with memory safety, and it does so inconsistently. Java and C# are mentioned as MSLs and yet they totally let you race. More fundamentally, data races aren’t the thing that attackers exploit except when those data races do lead to actual memory corruption (like use after free, double free, out of bounds, access to allocator metadata etc). So it’s more precise to not mention data races freedom as a requirement for memory safety, both because otherwise languages like Java and C# don’t meet the definition despite being included in the list and because data races in the presence of memory safety are not a big deal from a security standpoint.
- The document fails to mention to mention Fil-C. It would be understandable if it was mentioned with caveats (“new project”, “performance blah blah”) but not mentioning it at all is silly.
So it's an insidious long term issue that challenges our systems which reward short term thinking, and will slowly crush us, if we don't do anything about it?
I fully agree.
This is meant to be a practical strategy that can be implemented nation-wide, without turning into another https://xkcd.com/2347
Seems like a bad way to pick technology.
They do mention things like TRACTOR. Fil-C is far ahead of any project under the TRACTOR umbrella.
> This is meant to be a practical strategy that can be implemented nation-wide, without turning into another https://xkcd.com/2347
The solution to that is funding the thing that is essential, rather than complaining that an essential thing is unfunded. DOD could do that
Hmm, I take it that the situation is that there are a number of vendors/providers/distros/repos who could be distributing your memory-safe builds, but are currently still distributing unsafe builds?
I wonder if an organization like the Tor project [1] would be more motivated to "officially" distribute a Fil-C build, being that security is the whole point of their product. (I'm talking just their "onion router" [2], not (necessarily) the whole browser.)
I could imagine that once some organizations start officially shipping Fil-C builds, adoption might accelerate.
Also, have you talked to the Ladybird browser people? They seemed to be taking an interested in Fil-C.
[1] https://www.torproject.org/
[2] https://gitlab.torproject.org/tpo/core/tor
https://blog.torproject.org/announcing-arti/
This is a very sensible way to pick a technology for a government.
Having a cool proof of concept, with a bus factor of 1, and having a solution that countless government agencies can depend on for multi-million-dollar decades-long software projects are very different things.
They can't just depend out of the blue on you personally maintaining "Fil's Unbelievable Garbage Collector" for the lifetime of the government's projects. Maybe you believe they could, but it takes way more legwork to give such assurance to a government.
They list TRACTOR under projects they've already funded (and crucially, not among solutions they recommend yet). Apply for funding for Fil-C, and if it gets accepted, it'll probably get listed there too.
The TRACTOR approach also has higher tolerance to being an experimental project, because it's one-time conversion of C to Rust. It only needs to work once, not continuously for decades. The Rust-lang org is set up to offer serious long-term support, and is way past having a critical dependency on a single developer.
It is correct that data races in a garbage collected language are difficult to turn into exploits.
The problem is that data races in C and C++ do in fact get combined with other memory safety bugs into exploits.
A definition from first principles is still missing, but imagine it takes the form of "all memory access is free from UB". Then whether the pointer is in-bounds, or whether no thread is concurrently mutating the location seem to be quite similar constraints.
Rust does give ways to control concurrency, eg via expressing exclusive access through &mut reference. So there is also precedent that the same mechanisms can be used to ensure validity of reference (not dangling) as well as absence of concurrent access.
This is absolutely not true. One of the classic data races is when you do a set of operations like this non-atomically:
Which is a huge security vulnerability because it lets people double spend. Alice buys something for $1000 and something for $1 and instead of debiting her account by $1001 it debits it by $1 because the write for the second transaction clobbers the balance reduction from the first one.Another common one is symbolic links. You check the target of a symbolic link and then access it, but between the check and the access the link changed and now you're leaking secrets or overwriting privileged data.
Data races are serious vulnerabilities completely independent of memory safety.
In Java a data race means loss of sequential consistency. Humans generally don't understand programs which lack sequential consistency so a typical Java team probably can't debug the program, but the program still always has well defined behaviour - and chances are you don't want to debug the weird non-sequentially consistent behaviour anyway, you just want them to fix the data race.
In C# data races are not too dangerous for trivial objects which are valid for all bit patterns. If you race an integer k, well, now k is smashed, don't think too hard about the value of k, it does have some value but it won't go well for you to try to reason about the value. For a complex object like a hash table, it's Undefined Behaviour.
Meanwhile in C or C++ all data races are immediate UB, you lose, game over.
Note though that data races can make otherwise memory-safe programs not actually memory safe. See for example Go
They offer default protections that can be easily overridden in most of those languages. Some of them require you to use those overrides to implement common data structures.
> MSLs can prevent entire classes of vulnerabilities, such as buffer overflows, dangling pointers, and numerous other Common Weakness Enumeration (CWE) vulnerabilities.
If used a certain way.
> Android team made a strategic decision to prioritize MSLs, specifically Rust and Java, for all new development
Was that /all/ they did?
> Invest initially in training, tools, and refactoring. This investment can usually be offset by long-term savings through reduced downtime, fewer vulnerabilities, and enhanced developer efficiency.
That is an exceedingly dubious claim to make in general.
About where that number was twenty years previous.
The big difference is that twenty years ago, the enemy was script kiddies. Now it's competent teams funded by multiple nation-states.