> I don't think that Americans (or South Africans) really understand the scars that the Nazis left in Europe.
Left-leaning and centrist Americans at least were similarly horrified, so I don't think it's an issue of understanding in the US. Musk in particular is just dead set on being a right-wing extremist now for whatever reason.
Also note that it's not just Europe where sales have dropped, Tesla EV market share has fallen quite hard in the US as well IIRC.
Some Americans certainly understand. Sadly (or maybe thankfully?) a lot of them have passed on. My grandfather was in France and Germany and was so scarred by what he experienced there that he never spoke of it once to any of his 6 children or 16 grandchildren and he was a fantastic story teller. I shudder to think how he would feel about what's happened in America recently. The Europe that he risked his life for and his friends that he watched die ... all that sacrifice and good will has been discarded in a few months.
Is anyone surprised by this? Europeans still vividly remember, and are reminded, of the cost of WWII. When the head of a company, no matter how trendy, sieg heils on stage (twice!) and then goes on to publicly appear at far-right german political rallies - europeans take note, and act accordingly.
Virtually everywhere in Europe, broadly defined, was either directly involved in WW2 or was severely impacted by it while not technically being a combatant.
I don't think it's just the Nazi salute to be honest. The reputational damage the US has suffered this year is insane and it's getting worse.
Since Trump was elected America has been awful to its allies, specially Canada and EU. Many Europeans, are avoiding spending money on American companies, much less one owned by Musk.
Americans have a poor understanding of what’s going on with Teslas sales numbers because their market largely lacks the competition that exists elsewhere and so they overindex on lesser factors like Elon.
The real issue is simply that Tesla are attempting to maintain their pricing and margins while the cost of producing EVs is plummeting and the variety of options is increasing.
The result is that they are being severely undercut on price by BYD et al.
Tesla are going to have to either start cutting prices significantly, or accept being a low volume pseudo-premium offering.
In Europe EV adoption is really driven by a concerted effort by individual buyers wanting to make green choices. And Musk has completely alienated all support from that buyer base. I don't see Tesla ever recovering its green credentials, and as a consequence ever recovering its sales or second-hand value.
I’m honestly not sure which group I hate more, the Elon fans who think he can’t do anything wrong or the Musk haters who think everything he does is evil/dumb.
It would be interesting to see if the brand could be recovered if Elon left. I have to imagine a significant fraction of anyone still working there is still there because they're politically aligned with Elon, so, it might be difficult.
Tesla used to be: Unmatched software(+), unmatched electronics(+), Save the planet(+), great subsidies(+), electric car that doesn't look weird(+), USA and Startups and the future(+), unmatched acceleration(+), low built quality(-), Shitty driving dynamics(-)
Now alternatives are pretty good, so still Unmatched software(+) but the difference is not that big and the rest doesn't look good. No longer saving the planet because you don't save the planet with fascists, USA is no longer cool(hostile and clown-like), tech guys are no longer cool(greedy and sleazy and meddle with politics instead of doing cool shit), the design is dated and boring now and there are many alternatives doing much better in many other characteristics.
So Tesla still sells very well when the price is right, match the new situation and it sells. Tasla sells like hot cakes in Turkey for example because they introduced a version specifically for the Turkish regulations and that particular configuration is taxed just %10 when the cheapest petrol cars are taxed %80. AFAIK Tesla keeps selling well in Norway too.
This is spot on, I bought a BYD instead of a Tesla because of the reasons above. The build quality was better, the subsidy was great, and the Tesla brand is associated with Musk, so it's not a brand I personally want to touch.
Which is precisely why the company cannot split with Elon, and people who think it will are deluded.
Elon has a very loose association with truth, in a manner that usually yields long prison sentences. For many years he has been engaging with what could accurately be called securities fraud, and there is always some amazing new mega revenue stream just around the corner. If Tesla fired Elon (in an imaginary world where he didn't control the board), any competent hire would have to seriously say ooof and point out all of the mega risks the company faces. With Elon it's all magic and fairy tales and soon a trillion super robots and robotaxis to Mars and...
You can feel sympathy for a person without agreeing with them or having the same viewpoints. I hope there are people out there that feel bad for another living being.
Not much, I guess. His bad behavior goes back a long way, and has hurt many people around him. He used to lie publicly about his first child having died in his arms, when it was the mother's, just to provide a stark example.
He has enough bills to wipe his tears away with, unlike others.
I suspect some of the more recent behavior is attributable to or influenced by drug use, and I feel some sympathy for anyone who comes under their thrall.
Instead of worrying about the richest man in the world, feel sympathy for the people actively dying from his “wood chipper” tactics: https://archive.is/25XCC
It is likely that most of the teslas you saw around Amsterdam were part of the Schiphol airport taxi fleet. They went all in on tesla about a decade ago.
What’s the point in a luxury brand where you’re embarrassed to be seen displaying the logo? I don’t think I’ve ever seen brand impairment like this that didn’t result in the brand being retired. The only way forward I can see for them in Europe is partnership with a European firm and I can’t see that working either.
Do people really care about this that much? The European company that made my car probably uses its social media and ad presence to spread progressivism, which I’m completely against, but what are we supposed to do, find and buy only from companies that we identify with politically? That would be very hard and limiting. And somewhat stupid too (as stupid as a car company taking a political stance, or people that think that buying from some company means you identify with their politics, but here we are!)
Aside problems with Musk it has to be said that the model lineup of Tesla is poor by today’s Euopean standards. We have lots of models and brands available in all sizes, luxurious and expensive to small and fun. Tesla was a great choice in 2019, but now it is just one among many and it doesn’t boast a great design or interesting imterior.
Even in the US, Tesla has problems with lack of variety.
In my case, almost nothing they sell fits in my garage. Even their shortest (Model 3) just barely fits, and there’s no hatch variant like I’d prefer, so I’m leasing a Nissan Ariya and will probably switch to one of those next-gen Leafs afterwards.
I have 2 or 3 neighbors that solved that problem by parking in the driveway. I think the car would fit in the garage but ~75% of my neighbors use their garage as an extra room to store shit.
One thing is obviously Musk with his Nazi salutes and open support to the far right in multiple European countries, including Germany. This, to me, is enough to mock anyone who would buy a Tesla after those events.
The other thing is that Tesla is a US company. I suspect that many people outside the US look for alternatives to US products. The more expensive the product, the more important the decision. And Teslas are by far not the best EVs (clearly not an ecological car, not the cheapest, ...), so it's easy to go for an alternative.
And then, for people who wouldn't mind so much what Musk and Trump and their band are doing, it is anyway a risk: people in the street will judge you if you drive in a Tesla. Many drivers have put stickers on their Tesla to show they don't support Musk ("I bought it before Musk became crazy"), but they can't do that with a new model. Buying a new Tesla that was clearly built after those events is a great risk (Teslas have been burned even though they had been bought before the madness).
All that to say, I'm surprised to see that there are still Tesla sales in Europe at all.
Writing from Germany the first association with Tesla is Musk and following that his Nazi stuff and involvement with the current US chaos. The brand name Tesla is burned and it will need years of good behavior to bring it back to neutral. If Tesla wants to sell cars here, they need a new company name.
Europe is economically strained right now. Inflation has hit hard, with housing costs skyrocketing even in less expensive countries, and people are being gentrified out of their own cities. Its no time to be buying expensive vanity cars. People cant even buy normal cars right now.
It’s odd to read the comments here, somehow getting into a long thread about nazi camps when the buried lede is that Europe is under tremendous financial stress and it’s not getting better. Losing ground for 20 years to USA and ascendant Asia where Tesla sells a ton of cars is a concern. Talk about boiled frogs.
How is buying from Chinese companies embracing the CCP? BYD didn't do anything to Uighurs. The US is also supporting something much worse than what China has done at this moment, so if we use the same logic, we shouldn't be buying anything produced by US companies.
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[ 1.9 ms ] story [ 95.0 ms ] threadLeft-leaning and centrist Americans at least were similarly horrified, so I don't think it's an issue of understanding in the US. Musk in particular is just dead set on being a right-wing extremist now for whatever reason.
Also note that it's not just Europe where sales have dropped, Tesla EV market share has fallen quite hard in the US as well IIRC.
You’re only getting a tax discount with BEV, but no purchase discounts financed from taxes.
Since Trump was elected America has been awful to its allies, specially Canada and EU. Many Europeans, are avoiding spending money on American companies, much less one owned by Musk.
The real issue is simply that Tesla are attempting to maintain their pricing and margins while the cost of producing EVs is plummeting and the variety of options is increasing.
The result is that they are being severely undercut on price by BYD et al.
Tesla are going to have to either start cutting prices significantly, or accept being a low volume pseudo-premium offering.
Is that true? I would have bet that the adoption is driven by company fleet cars and incentives.
That would be nice but it is mostly driven by EU-wide fleet emission rules and individual country subsidies/taxes.
If only we could solve starlink pollution as easily but privatize the profits, socialize the costs
https://satellitemap.space/
Starlink is an absolute net good.
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1938793866389581865
„Connectivity saves lives“
I wouldn't romanticize it that much.
Tesla used to be: Unmatched software(+), unmatched electronics(+), Save the planet(+), great subsidies(+), electric car that doesn't look weird(+), USA and Startups and the future(+), unmatched acceleration(+), low built quality(-), Shitty driving dynamics(-)
Now alternatives are pretty good, so still Unmatched software(+) but the difference is not that big and the rest doesn't look good. No longer saving the planet because you don't save the planet with fascists, USA is no longer cool(hostile and clown-like), tech guys are no longer cool(greedy and sleazy and meddle with politics instead of doing cool shit), the design is dated and boring now and there are many alternatives doing much better in many other characteristics.
So Tesla still sells very well when the price is right, match the new situation and it sells. Tasla sells like hot cakes in Turkey for example because they introduced a version specifically for the Turkish regulations and that particular configuration is taxed just %10 when the cheapest petrol cars are taxed %80. AFAIK Tesla keeps selling well in Norway too.
No turn signal stalks? Need to quickly reverse if you stuck your nose out too far? (no stalk anymore) Need defrost now? (search on touchscreen)
I think it's now "cost-cuting ergonomic poverty", sort of like how macs lost too many ports.
Elon has a very loose association with truth, in a manner that usually yields long prison sentences. For many years he has been engaging with what could accurately be called securities fraud, and there is always some amazing new mega revenue stream just around the corner. If Tesla fired Elon (in an imaginary world where he didn't control the board), any competent hire would have to seriously say ooof and point out all of the mega risks the company faces. With Elon it's all magic and fairy tales and soon a trillion super robots and robotaxis to Mars and...
Edit: Yikes. Also, sympathy ≠ empathy.
He has enough bills to wipe his tears away with, unlike others.
I suspect some of the more recent behavior is attributable to or influenced by drug use, and I feel some sympathy for anyone who comes under their thrall.
Therefore, let's honor Elon's words and rejoice at his misfortune.
Car ownership is expensive and unnecessary so people with wealth bought the environmentally positive status symbols. There was simply no equivalent.
I wonder what will replace it.
In my case, almost nothing they sell fits in my garage. Even their shortest (Model 3) just barely fits, and there’s no hatch variant like I’d prefer, so I’m leasing a Nissan Ariya and will probably switch to one of those next-gen Leafs afterwards.
The other thing is that Tesla is a US company. I suspect that many people outside the US look for alternatives to US products. The more expensive the product, the more important the decision. And Teslas are by far not the best EVs (clearly not an ecological car, not the cheapest, ...), so it's easy to go for an alternative.
And then, for people who wouldn't mind so much what Musk and Trump and their band are doing, it is anyway a risk: people in the street will judge you if you drive in a Tesla. Many drivers have put stickers on their Tesla to show they don't support Musk ("I bought it before Musk became crazy"), but they can't do that with a new model. Buying a new Tesla that was clearly built after those events is a great risk (Teslas have been burned even though they had been bought before the madness).
All that to say, I'm surprised to see that there are still Tesla sales in Europe at all.
maybe if there's a reddit meetup nearby
> Overall, battery electric vehicle sales rose 25% in Europe compared to a year earlier
Come on, now.
Not sure that makes sense. The Uighurs need better PR, I guess.