Recently took some of these in Germany, was a pretty pleasant experience!
It was a bit odd how the ticket prices seem to fluctuate a lot over there based on timing (like 20 EUR if you buy half a week ahead of time, closer to 40 EUR nearer to travel date, at least in my case) but I much preferred taking the train over flying.
"the overall performance improvement gained by optimizing a single part of a system is limited by the fraction of time that the improved part is actually used"
There's another factor in HSR speeds: track degradation and maintenance. If you run the trains faster, they cause more wear to the tracks and require more frequent maintenance, and also tolerances on the tracks need to be kept tighter. Germany already seems to have trouble doing maintenance on time, so running trains faster would make this worse.
I fear that the general public in Germany will not be praising this achievement. The once efficient and punctional trains in Germany have deteriorated severely in the past years due to lots of delayed maintenance causing lots of delays and even regular cancelations of trains. Also the road infrastructure is suffering from delayed maintenance.
That's exactly it, it's not the new top speed they need, they lack efficiency. And it's not just Deutschebahn. For example BVG, who runs busses and U-bahn in Berlin is even less reliable.
Interesting; America seems to be suffering the same fate. It takes municipalities years to fix highways. The main highway running through Silicon Valley, 101, has been under construction for more than a decade and is in dire need of improvement.
It seems the network of roads built in the 40s, 50s and 60s just can no longer be done efficiently.
It is a pretty limited achievement as-is: ignoring maglevs, a tgv test train reached 575 kph back in 2007, and China had test trains reaching 487 in 2011.
China’s next-gen is being deployed with goals of a 400kph service speed.
Agreed, nowadays I have to schedule train exchanges to have at least 30 m between them, and even so, I managed to miss connections.
DB is doing their best work for having people reaching out for cars.
While you might get stuck in traffic on the motorway, there are usually workarounds as soon as you get the next exit point, while being stuck on an train stopped in the middle of nowehere with a full train excedding passanger capacity because "pick random excuse", and reservations being optional, isn't really motivating to keep traveling by train.
Exactly this. The only people who will care are hardcore train people, and even then everyone is so crushingly disappointed with DB I doubt they mind much. I mean even at 405 km/h the train will STILL be an hour late.
> The once efficient and punctional trains in Germany have deteriorated severely in the past years due to lots of delayed maintenance causing lots of delays and even regular cancelations of trains.
The main cause (often somewhat hidden behind the term "decayed infrastructure") is that there are too many trains on too few tracks. There are many reasons for that. I think the main ones are:
* Political pressure to have more trains, without an adequate increase in infrastructure capacity (trains are cheaper than tracks and can be delivered faster). For example, political pressure utterly destroyed the reliability of the local rail system in our area, because the number of trains per hour was increased by a factor of 2-3, with only a minimal amount of new tracks (the majority of the network is still single-track). Apparently, the system worked in simulations under near-perfect conditions (no delays, few passengers, no technical problems). So let's build it! The chaos that ensued during the first few months after the network opened again made national headlines. Another example: the highly overloaded Rhine valley line between Mannheim and Basel was proposed to be upgraded to 4 tracks in 1964. In 1970, the project was scheduled to be finished in 1985. Currently the (ambitious) goal is to finish the project in 2041 [0]. The original line (270 km) was finished after 17 years in the 1840ies.
* On regional and local lines, a tendency to increase train frequency and to decrease train capacity (more trains, but shorter ones). I suspect this is also because of political pressure ("your station now has 4 trains per hour!!"), but it doesn't make any sense. A short train which can hold 150 passengers occupies exactly the same amount of "space" (blocks) on the tracks as a full-length train with a capacity of 1,200 passengers, and they require exactly the same amount of personnel.
* Privatization of DB on the early 90ies, with political pressure to be profitable. Tracks are expensive to maintain, so those parts of the infrastructure that could be classified as "redundant" were dismantled. Now they have a network with little redundancy, which is great from a short-sighted business standpoint, but terrible for reliability.
Good call out on infrastructure. Infrastructure maintenance isn't cool and there's no ribbon cutting ceremony for fixing existing capital. The new government is finally allocating more resources for DB.
Train frequency is the most important aspect of transportation. It's probably more important than max speed or even ticket price. A train every 15 min means you don't have to make an appointment because one will be coming soon. At half an hour you will need to study the timetable and plan your life around it.
The ICEs are already plenty fast, the issue is they share rail with the much slower and less reliable RBs. Any delay cascades and you can't just make ICEs go faster to catch up.
On a €/(avg. ICE speed) basis likely makes more sense to invest directly in RB.
While DB is obviously involved, this test train included cars from a new design that Siemens primarily is aiming at the export market (E.g. US Brightline West, various projects in Asia, ...).
This article communicates what this is about very poorly, so I'm not surprised a lot of people are asking "what is so special about this train?".
The answer is: Nothing. Many ICE trains have the capability to go that fast* - and some already surpassed these speeds on test tracks decades ago. It's really nothing special to make a train go these speeds.
What this test was supposed to show is that the real track (not a test track) between Erfurt and Leipzig/Halle can now support trains going that fast. Having compatible tracks is the real challenge (and cost sink) for high speed transport, not the trains themselves. Creating high speed track that is safe and usable in year-round conditions while being affordable to build and maintain is surprisingly hard.
* ICE-3s reached up to 368 km/h in tests, though ICE-4s are designed for more economical speeds in the 200-300 range and currently limited to 265km/h in software for safe operation.
Isn't it also true that that area around Leipzig has been a thorn in the side of DB since the fall of the wall? I think I remember reading somewhere that the infrastructure in that area isn't ideal for high volume and speed of trains (due to stretches that only have a single track and a lack of guarded/signaled level crossings IIRC)
Also interesting is, at least parts of the so called 'Feste Fahrbahn'(ballastless tracks) are of 'System Bögl', the same company that has joint ventures in China, to test and build Maglevs there. Though rather slow, more light light rail with no more than 160kph, but with an option for freight.
> DB und Siemens Mobility haben bei Testfahrten einen neuen Geschwindigkeitsrekord für die Strecke Erfurt–Leipzig/Halle erreicht
> Der ICE-S der DB Systemtechnik wird hauptsächlich für Test- und Messfahrten eingesetzt. Er dient dazu, neue Strecken zu testen, die Infrastruktur zu untersuchen und verschiedene Hochgeschwindigkeitsprüfungen durchzuführen
The latter paragraph explicitly states the point of this specific train is to test new routes and to analyze the infrastructure.
I think, like usual, it's a case of people reading the title and then going off to write a comment.
Also, the passenger miles per unit of energy drops geometrically, as speed increase linearly. Most of the loss is aerodynamic, so you either need a hyperloop tunnel or wings to take you into the literal stratosphere, to avoid high fuel burn at high speeds, so even if you could run the train at 400 km/hr along the whole track, it would be unlikely that any operator would do so, on a recurring basis.
It's also worth noting that ICE train does not mean internal combustion engine train, which was my second read (my first read being some super-deportation-train probably doesn't need to be clarified as even as I imagined that I knew it couldn't be right). It means "Intercity train", which a quick lookup clarifies as an express train between two cities that's longer than a commuter train but with fewer stops than your typical regional train.
Makes sense I'm not familiar with the term, as the closest match in my area is Caltrain (express trains, at least), which is still probably just commuter rail. I guess it's what CAHSR is trying to be.
"The Erfurt-Leipzig/Halle route was used for the record-breaking journey without any modifications. According to Nagl, this shows that infrastructure investments create a solid foundation that lasts for generations. The insights gained will help with future renovations and the development of new high-speed trains.
The ICE test train used was a Velaro Novo test car from Siemens Mobility. Thomas Graetz, Vice President High Speed and Intercity Trains at Siemens, explained that the test runs provided important insights into acoustics, aerodynamics, and handling. The Velaro Novo is set to establish new standards for capacity, economy, and efficiency.
Dr. Hiie-Mai Unger from DB Systemtechnik led the measurements with the special ICE-S test train. This train is equipped with extensive measurement technology and collected data on the interaction between train and track."
This part is still misleading: "The ICE test train used was a Velaro Novo test car from Siemens Mobility"
The test train used is a set from the late 20th century. So old that its regular brethren are already scheduled for retirement. This is the last generation of ICE that was still using separate locomotives (and with that, limited traction) instead of powered wheelsets distributed all over the full length of the train. The only thing Velaro Novo in this demonstration is that they inserted an unpowered prototype car into the trainset.
39 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 49.4 ms ] thread[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercity_Express
It was a bit odd how the ticket prices seem to fluctuate a lot over there based on timing (like 20 EUR if you buy half a week ahead of time, closer to 40 EUR nearer to travel date, at least in my case) but I much preferred taking the train over flying.
I wonder if the Germans will end up having to rename the train system at some point.
"the overall performance improvement gained by optimizing a single part of a system is limited by the fraction of time that the improved part is actually used"
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amdahl%27s_law
It seems the network of roads built in the 40s, 50s and 60s just can no longer be done efficiently.
China’s next-gen is being deployed with goals of a 400kph service speed.
DB is doing their best work for having people reaching out for cars.
While you might get stuck in traffic on the motorway, there are usually workarounds as soon as you get the next exit point, while being stuck on an train stopped in the middle of nowehere with a full train excedding passanger capacity because "pick random excuse", and reservations being optional, isn't really motivating to keep traveling by train.
The main cause (often somewhat hidden behind the term "decayed infrastructure") is that there are too many trains on too few tracks. There are many reasons for that. I think the main ones are:
* Political pressure to have more trains, without an adequate increase in infrastructure capacity (trains are cheaper than tracks and can be delivered faster). For example, political pressure utterly destroyed the reliability of the local rail system in our area, because the number of trains per hour was increased by a factor of 2-3, with only a minimal amount of new tracks (the majority of the network is still single-track). Apparently, the system worked in simulations under near-perfect conditions (no delays, few passengers, no technical problems). So let's build it! The chaos that ensued during the first few months after the network opened again made national headlines. Another example: the highly overloaded Rhine valley line between Mannheim and Basel was proposed to be upgraded to 4 tracks in 1964. In 1970, the project was scheduled to be finished in 1985. Currently the (ambitious) goal is to finish the project in 2041 [0]. The original line (270 km) was finished after 17 years in the 1840ies.
* On regional and local lines, a tendency to increase train frequency and to decrease train capacity (more trains, but shorter ones). I suspect this is also because of political pressure ("your station now has 4 trains per hour!!"), but it doesn't make any sense. A short train which can hold 150 passengers occupies exactly the same amount of "space" (blocks) on the tracks as a full-length train with a capacity of 1,200 passengers, and they require exactly the same amount of personnel.
* Privatization of DB on the early 90ies, with political pressure to be profitable. Tracks are expensive to maintain, so those parts of the infrastructure that could be classified as "redundant" were dismantled. Now they have a network with little redundancy, which is great from a short-sighted business standpoint, but terrible for reliability.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlsruhe%E2%80%93Basel_high-s...
Train frequency is the most important aspect of transportation. It's probably more important than max speed or even ticket price. A train every 15 min means you don't have to make an appointment because one will be coming soon. At half an hour you will need to study the timetable and plan your life around it.
On a €/(avg. ICE speed) basis likely makes more sense to invest directly in RB.
The answer is: Nothing. Many ICE trains have the capability to go that fast* - and some already surpassed these speeds on test tracks decades ago. It's really nothing special to make a train go these speeds.
What this test was supposed to show is that the real track (not a test track) between Erfurt and Leipzig/Halle can now support trains going that fast. Having compatible tracks is the real challenge (and cost sink) for high speed transport, not the trains themselves. Creating high speed track that is safe and usable in year-round conditions while being affordable to build and maintain is surprisingly hard.
* ICE-3s reached up to 368 km/h in tests, though ICE-4s are designed for more economical speeds in the 200-300 range and currently limited to 265km/h in software for safe operation.
Also interesting is, at least parts of the so called 'Feste Fahrbahn'(ballastless tracks) are of 'System Bögl', the same company that has joint ventures in China, to test and build Maglevs there. Though rather slow, more light light rail with no more than 160kph, but with an option for freight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_System_Bögl
Pures Betongold! ...err... golden concrete...
> DB und Siemens Mobility haben bei Testfahrten einen neuen Geschwindigkeitsrekord für die Strecke Erfurt–Leipzig/Halle erreicht
> Der ICE-S der DB Systemtechnik wird hauptsächlich für Test- und Messfahrten eingesetzt. Er dient dazu, neue Strecken zu testen, die Infrastruktur zu untersuchen und verschiedene Hochgeschwindigkeitsprüfungen durchzuführen
The latter paragraph explicitly states the point of this specific train is to test new routes and to analyze the infrastructure.
I think, like usual, it's a case of people reading the title and then going off to write a comment.
From a passenger perspective, a reduction of about an hour from the scheduled journey time for the long distance connections is pretty good.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt%E2%80%93Leipzig/Halle_h...
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnellfahrstrecke_Eltersdor...
Makes sense I'm not familiar with the term, as the closest match in my area is Caltrain (express trains, at least), which is still probably just commuter rail. I guess it's what CAHSR is trying to be.
"The Erfurt-Leipzig/Halle route was used for the record-breaking journey without any modifications. According to Nagl, this shows that infrastructure investments create a solid foundation that lasts for generations. The insights gained will help with future renovations and the development of new high-speed trains.
The ICE test train used was a Velaro Novo test car from Siemens Mobility. Thomas Graetz, Vice President High Speed and Intercity Trains at Siemens, explained that the test runs provided important insights into acoustics, aerodynamics, and handling. The Velaro Novo is set to establish new standards for capacity, economy, and efficiency.
Dr. Hiie-Mai Unger from DB Systemtechnik led the measurements with the special ICE-S test train. This train is equipped with extensive measurement technology and collected data on the interaction between train and track."
https://www.golem.de/news/deutsche-bahn-ice-testzug-erreicht...
Translation via DeepL
The test train used is a set from the late 20th century. So old that its regular brethren are already scheduled for retirement. This is the last generation of ICE that was still using separate locomotives (and with that, limited traction) instead of powered wheelsets distributed all over the full length of the train. The only thing Velaro Novo in this demonstration is that they inserted an unpowered prototype car into the trainset.