It is a pretty good article, but it slightly misunderstands status. Being the first person on the dance floor is closer to a high status move, because it is taking a leardership position and suggesting what the group should do next. People avoid doing that because they want to copy someone of a higher status than themselves, not because they fear low status. The mechanism nature uses to implement that low status behaviour is nervousness which is often described as a fear of "standing out", "looking silly" or similar terms, but those are low status concerns. High status people don't really suffer from looking silly, they define what looking silly is by being what they don't do.
No, it gets it just right. The implicit assumption in this example is that the first person on the dance floor is _not_ quickly joined by hundreds of other people but continues to be awkwardly by themselves for a while, possibly then embarrassing themself by completely failing to attract anyone.
What a miserable world people commenting here seem to live in where going out to dance is a sort of status challenging activity?! When I was younger and frequented dance floors, everyone immediately started dancing as soon as the music started playing, wasn’t that the point of being there?? Never even occurred to me to fear being the only one dancing. And if did happen I would be wondering what kind of people come here and just stands there.
One thing that helps with this: getting old. You just stop worrying about what other people think of you. All the drama and gossip and cliquish behavior just gets so boring.
Why do you think old fat guys walk around naked in the locker room at the gym? They've certainly got nothing to show off, but they don't give a shit.
Yes. And this is very helpful. If you are young and you suck at something, more people will give you the benefit of the youth and envision you may improve. If you're old and you suck at something, many will think you're just old, and you just suck. "Don't hurt yourself!" So yes, not giving a shit is a very good way to make progress.
We live in a society in which older people(or men, at least) get some degree of implicit status and respect - which is probably why our governments are all getontocracies.
This is true for emotions: feelings people often find uncomfortable (sadness, loneliness, fear) don’t have to make you miserable. You can just feel those feelings in your body, pay attention to what they’re asking you to pay attention to, and feel deeply okay about it all.
The same is true for physical sensations. Pain is loud so it’s really good at drawing our attention, but there’s a difference between noticing you’re hurt and getting upset about being hurt.
I flipped my bike a couple months ago and scraped myself up incredibly badly, but there wasn’t a ton of suffering involved.
The massive adrenaline shot left me shaking, I felt overwhelmed and like I wanted to cry, and the pain was very loud. But I laid on the ground for fifteen or twenty minutes and then walked the fifteen minutes back home. I wouldn’t call it fun, but it was totally okay.
(Nick Cammarata has a good Buddhist take on this: suffering is a specific fast, grabby movement you do in your mind called “tanha” and if you pay attention you can learn to do it less.)
I agree. I used to live high class. Then the Mafia came at me. I learned to lay low and appreciate poverty. Also, my ex and I bought a house, but then a richer man came and she kicked me out on Valentine's day. Now I despise wealth and luxury and now date only women at the flea market, cashiers and walmart stockers. Highly recommend. The devil wears Prada.
It's the typical advice coming from high status people. Reminds me of rich people glorifying minimalism because they can buy stuff whenever they need it and throw it away after.
What is truly low status though ? I'd say it is quite rare. Most people are average. Truly low status I guess would be to be homeless or be so disfigured you cannot find a mate - something of that sort.
I think many average or even above average people who are not low status want to have more status and that's their real issue - the unmet desire for more power, not being actually low status.
Related: During solo travelling whenever a thought crosses my mind to do something and my instinctual internal response is discomfort, I try to make myself do it - even if I feel awkward inserting myself or going back.
I've had so many awesome conversations with random interesting people every day during my trips thanks to this. I've gone places I'd otherwise not experience, all for the sake of exciting adventure and pushing my own bounds. The confidence that comes from this is significant.
Also, as a former remote software engineer of 3 years, it has been so energizing to socialize with people again. Best upper that there is.
Solo travelling was how I formed one of my most salient memories of the "moat of low status", to wit: going to Japan in 2011. Japan is an advanced G7 country, but unlike most of the rest, very few people there speak or understand English. So I was put in the position of having to get by with my shitty Japanese, or attempt to communicate even more futilely with the locals in English and seem like an even bigger, more clueless asshole. I think I gained more levels of Japanese in those two weeks than I did in two years of university education.
Overall I like this framing. But I wanted to comment on this
> In poker, it’s possible to improve via theoretical learning.... But you really can’t become a successful player without playing a lot of hands with and in front of other players, many of whom will be better than you.
This is an interesting example because poker is a game that has existed for many years, and for most of those years everyone learned by doing and was terrible at it.
People who excel at things have typically done more theoretical learning than the average person. Doing is necessary, but it's rarely the main way you learn something.
Either you have a mentor who has already absorbed theory and transmits it to you in digested form, or you have to learn the theory yourself.
But most people get the balance between theory and doing wrong, and most people err on the side of doing because theory is harder and less instantly rewarding.
Tangentially, I've been applying something similar, but actually thinking of it as the privilege of high status.
As a very senior member of my team, which has a lot of new college grads, I've been asking the "dumb" questions, the "irritating" questions, intentionally speaking up what I believe others may be thingking, specifically because I figure I can afford the social (career) hit.
Sufficient status entirely changes how the act of asking dumb questions is perceived by others. A person with a small title is seen as asking dumb questions because they are dumb. A person with a big title asks dumb questions because they are smart. Of course it's not just title but also age, gender, race, appearance, etc.
Yes this is probably the best thing about feeling senior enough and maybe the best measure of seniority. If you dare ask stupid questions you aren't stupid.
But then there are likely also situations when you feel that you ask a bunch of stupid questions but are faced with blank stares because people doesn't understand the context enough for those questions either or they are struggling enough with other problems to even entertain that kind of question.
It can kind of lead to a similar situation to when the math professor at uni jokingly asks a "trivial" math question in front of his students. It's trivial only once you have worked that kind of problem a 1000 times.
I have an account on reddit that leans into extremes, specifically to collect the ad hominem attacks, while wading into benign topics people won’t talk about but would like consensus on
because they are afraid the benign topic will cause them to get ad hominem attacked or generally vilified
most people’s reddit profiles are their whole identity and they try to stay in moderate “polite company” at the expense of remaining ignorant
Absolutely. As I get more and more senior, I found myself prefacing a lot of questions with "let me ask some stupid questions" to ask some broad questions or context of the meeting. It can be something seemingly obvious, what's important is it somehow breaks the barrier for others to ask questions. I used to say "I'm going to play my 'new guy' card one more time" when I'm new at a company, but this seems to work more generically, and tends to work in the team's benefit.
I wish more people were like you. I can't speak to the past but it seems all anyone in high status positions wants to do is be "guilded" and left alone.
I used to be the one that in big meetings would ask the 'dumb' questions a lot of people undoubtedly had in their mind, but wouldn't dare to pose. I didn't care that some people would find the question stupid, since it would make other people happy for not having to speak up themselves while still getting the info they needed. It would as well make some people happy for establishing a slightly higher place in the pecking order. At least i would gain some karma and maybe even some admiration.
Over the years I did this less and nowadays I mostly only speak when asked so in rather big meetings.
How did this come to be? I found that people who feel that they belong in the higher ranks of the social pecking order sometimes don't like this behavior and actively try to make you look bad. As I'm quite sensitive and am generally a people pleaser who thrives on getting external validation (I'm working on it...), it did not feel good and I feel it wasn't worth the trouble...
Indeed. As a senior, I found out that at the last 'retrospective' I was one the only ones who had anything on 'needs improvement' 'saying what I believe others might be thinking' - and during anonymous voting my items did get most of the votes.
I grew up in Scotland in the 90s, the high school I went to was ill equipped to deal with someone as wide as I am on the spectrums. I was put into the "retarded children" programs. I think this resulted in me always "knowing" I was the dumbest person in the room, and eventually as a survival mechanism I learned to, well... not care. All through college, my 20s and 30s, I always felt like the dumbest person in the room, but I didn't really care I just felt super happy to be in the rooms, and so I said whatever I wanted and asked whatever I wanted. Now that I'm older, I realize what a blessing this ended up being because I've always ended up in rooms full of incredibly brilliant people having decent amounts of money thrown my way to be in them.
Very similar to the concept of the dip, explained in the book The Dip by Seth Godin
I asked Google to briefly summarize the concept:
> The Dip: It's a term Godin uses to describe the unavoidable and challenging period that occurs after the initial excitement of starting a new project, skill, or career, and before achieving success or mastery. This is the time when things get difficult, frustrating, and many people are tempted to quit
> Embracing the Dip: Instead of being discouraged by The Dip, Godin suggests that dips can be opportunities. They serve as a natural filter, separating those with the determination to persevere from those who are not truly committed. By pushing through the Dip, you can emerge stronger and potentially achieve greater rewards
Well, no. Depends on the person. For some people and for some new undertakings, especially if those people know themselves well already, they can hit the ground running. I've seen it.
I started the piano when I was 32. I'm not particularly good at it, I'll never play anything complex, but I love playing and I do my best. My teacher forced me to play in public at some point, and that was probably one of the best things he did, to get me past the point of caring.
That made me realize: no-one cares. You're the center of your life, and it's very important that you succeed, but the very few people who care about you (and whom you should care about) will have the patience, empathy, and admiration for you to be in that "moat", everyone else won't give a shit. If you fuck up, they'll forget about you in a minute. Try to remember about someone trying to do something you like but badly? You can't.
Whenever I see a public piano I seat at it. Sometimes it's just shit and I'm the only one happy I can press keys. Sometimes I manage to play a piece, and a random couple of people are happy about it.
This is a great article, follow its advice. The definition of low status is only the one you set for yourself. Push the shame and embrace it. No one cares anyways
Being low status can be psychologically protective in some ways. One can opt into being low status as a defense mechanism, "I'm afraid of genuine failure, but by choosing artificial failure from the start, I can avoid the emotional pain of genuine failure."
>It implies a defensive structure. I.e the advantage I get out of low status.
OP is using the term moat in the standard way, actually. Something you have to cross to get to the reward (skill at a particular thing), that most people won't pay the cost for (being temporarily bad at something and low status). It stops most people from even trying to compete.
Quote from the article:
"It’s called a moat because it’s an effective bar to getting where you’re trying to go, and operates much like a moat in the business sense — as a barrier to entry that keeps people on the inside (who are already good at something) safe from competition from the horde of people on the outside (who could be)."
It is super important to have “no asshole zones”. We can joke about “safe space” like “South Park” did but at least not having your work shredded to parts with snarky comments goes far.
I started posting on LinkedIn this year. I was afraid all the time there will be assholes coming out of woods to just say “you’re an idiot take this post down” - it happened once in 6 months so not bad. Other asshole was reposting my stuff picking on the details basically making content out of me.
Blocking was effective and shadow banning is great as those most likely moved on not even knowing I blocked them.
I know a lot of people as described in this post, but it's never been an issue for me. I'm much more concerned about earning status, then embarrassing myself. I remember when I first started BJJ I was getting crushed, but it was still fun. But once I had been doing it for a year getting submitted stung bad because I should have known better. In the end I think the advice about accepting embarrassment is still good, because if you're pushing yourself and trying to perform at a high level you will never stop failing and embarrassing yourself.
"Cate Hall is Astera's CEO. She's a former Supreme Court attorney and the ex-No. 1 female poker player in the world."
This article is countersignaling. It also happens to be directionally correct.
There is absolutely nothing low status about being present-day Cate Hall. But present-day Cate Hall probably tried and pushed through a lot of really tough stuff in part because yesteryear Cate Hall had this mindset. It so happened that she also had the talent to actually end up in impressive places.
The real lesson one should probably take from a person like this is that learning to eyeball your own strengths and weaknesses before you start down the long path of honing them is really important. If you are low status now but you have reason to believe you will become much higher status in the future by persevering, then persevere. If not...
People have always asked me: Why don’t you have a big house or <status-symbol-x> or <status-symbol-y>?
My response is always: Because I could use that capital to try something new. Granted, there were a few times I wish I had the house because of the market bumps but stocks have made up for it.
People are scared of failing, scared of losing the precarious position they have built up over the years. The housing market has made that 10x worse with the prices but humans need to try different things, learn different things. You can’t just do one thing for 70 years. My father had 4 careers, 3 wives, 5 children throughout his lifetime. 2 degrees. I’ve had 1 wife, 1 child, 1 career, 1 degree, because the world is 100x more expensive now. This is what prohibits us from finding our ikigai.
Great article. I’ve come to see that feeling embarrassed can actually be a kind of luxury. When I’m around people with disabilities—many of whom might simply hope to reach a point where embarrassment is even possible—it reminds me how much we take that experience for granted. In that light, embarrassment itself can feel like a privilege. It calls to mind 2 Corinthians 12:9: “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”
I genuinely needed this piece today, specifically. Thanks for sharing it.
I've been trying to live more authentically in general these past few years, making tiny little inroads one step at a time towards being someone I've consciously chosen, rather than merely exist in a safe form that doesn't risk alienating others (or rather, in a form I don't perceive to alienate others - obviously I am not a mindreader). Think classic tech neutral outfits (jeans and neutral shirts, neutral shoes, neutral socks, the sole piece of color being the Pride band of my Apple Watch). OCD hurts the process of trying to live authentically, because it's doing its damndest to ensure I never encounter harm.
So last night, after coming down from some flower and watching the evening roll in, I decided to put on an outfit I'd put together. All sorts of bright colors: neon green and black sneakers, bright pink shirt, sapphire blue denim jean shorts, bleached white socks - and went for a walk. OCD was INCREDIBLY self-conscious that I would stand out (duh), court the wrong sort of attention, or somehow find myself in trouble...for wearing things I see everyone else wear without any issue whatsoever.
The moat is real, and the mind wants to build barriers to minimize perceived harms; for neurodivergent folks, it can be downright crippling. Wallflowering at parties, never gambling on colors or bold styles, never taking on new challenges for risk of failure. It results in a life so boring, sterile, and uninteresting - to yourself, and to others.
So...yeah. I got nothing to add other than my personal nuggets of experience. Really glad this piece came past on HN today, I think a lot of folks are going to enjoy its message.
61 comments
[ 0.15 ms ] story [ 84.3 ms ] threadWhy do you think old fat guys walk around naked in the locker room at the gym? They've certainly got nothing to show off, but they don't give a shit.
We live in a society in which older people(or men, at least) get some degree of implicit status and respect - which is probably why our governments are all getontocracies.
There’s a difference between pain and suffering.
This is true for emotions: feelings people often find uncomfortable (sadness, loneliness, fear) don’t have to make you miserable. You can just feel those feelings in your body, pay attention to what they’re asking you to pay attention to, and feel deeply okay about it all.
The same is true for physical sensations. Pain is loud so it’s really good at drawing our attention, but there’s a difference between noticing you’re hurt and getting upset about being hurt.
I flipped my bike a couple months ago and scraped myself up incredibly badly, but there wasn’t a ton of suffering involved.
The massive adrenaline shot left me shaking, I felt overwhelmed and like I wanted to cry, and the pain was very loud. But I laid on the ground for fifteen or twenty minutes and then walked the fifteen minutes back home. I wouldn’t call it fun, but it was totally okay.
(Nick Cammarata has a good Buddhist take on this: suffering is a specific fast, grabby movement you do in your mind called “tanha” and if you pay attention you can learn to do it less.)
Being truly low status isn't much fun.
What is truly low status though ? I'd say it is quite rare. Most people are average. Truly low status I guess would be to be homeless or be so disfigured you cannot find a mate - something of that sort. I think many average or even above average people who are not low status want to have more status and that's their real issue - the unmet desire for more power, not being actually low status.
I've had so many awesome conversations with random interesting people every day during my trips thanks to this. I've gone places I'd otherwise not experience, all for the sake of exciting adventure and pushing my own bounds. The confidence that comes from this is significant.
Also, as a former remote software engineer of 3 years, it has been so energizing to socialize with people again. Best upper that there is.
> In poker, it’s possible to improve via theoretical learning.... But you really can’t become a successful player without playing a lot of hands with and in front of other players, many of whom will be better than you.
This is an interesting example because poker is a game that has existed for many years, and for most of those years everyone learned by doing and was terrible at it.
People who excel at things have typically done more theoretical learning than the average person. Doing is necessary, but it's rarely the main way you learn something.
Either you have a mentor who has already absorbed theory and transmits it to you in digested form, or you have to learn the theory yourself.
But most people get the balance between theory and doing wrong, and most people err on the side of doing because theory is harder and less instantly rewarding.
As a very senior member of my team, which has a lot of new college grads, I've been asking the "dumb" questions, the "irritating" questions, intentionally speaking up what I believe others may be thingking, specifically because I figure I can afford the social (career) hit.
But then there are likely also situations when you feel that you ask a bunch of stupid questions but are faced with blank stares because people doesn't understand the context enough for those questions either or they are struggling enough with other problems to even entertain that kind of question.
It can kind of lead to a similar situation to when the math professor at uni jokingly asks a "trivial" math question in front of his students. It's trivial only once you have worked that kind of problem a 1000 times.
https://grugbrain.dev/#grug-on-fold
because they are afraid the benign topic will cause them to get ad hominem attacked or generally vilified
most people’s reddit profiles are their whole identity and they try to stay in moderate “polite company” at the expense of remaining ignorant
Over the years I did this less and nowadays I mostly only speak when asked so in rather big meetings.
How did this come to be? I found that people who feel that they belong in the higher ranks of the social pecking order sometimes don't like this behavior and actively try to make you look bad. As I'm quite sensitive and am generally a people pleaser who thrives on getting external validation (I'm working on it...), it did not feel good and I feel it wasn't worth the trouble...
Low status isn't so bad.
Previous art: “ Willingness to look stupid” by Dan Luu.
https://danluu.com/look-stupid/
Precious discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28942189
I asked Google to briefly summarize the concept:
> The Dip: It's a term Godin uses to describe the unavoidable and challenging period that occurs after the initial excitement of starting a new project, skill, or career, and before achieving success or mastery. This is the time when things get difficult, frustrating, and many people are tempted to quit
> Embracing the Dip: Instead of being discouraged by The Dip, Godin suggests that dips can be opportunities. They serve as a natural filter, separating those with the determination to persevere from those who are not truly committed. By pushing through the Dip, you can emerge stronger and potentially achieve greater rewards
Well, no. Depends on the person. For some people and for some new undertakings, especially if those people know themselves well already, they can hit the ground running. I've seen it.
That made me realize: no-one cares. You're the center of your life, and it's very important that you succeed, but the very few people who care about you (and whom you should care about) will have the patience, empathy, and admiration for you to be in that "moat", everyone else won't give a shit. If you fuck up, they'll forget about you in a minute. Try to remember about someone trying to do something you like but badly? You can't.
Whenever I see a public piano I seat at it. Sometimes it's just shit and I'm the only one happy I can press keys. Sometimes I manage to play a piece, and a random couple of people are happy about it.
This is a great article, follow its advice. The definition of low status is only the one you set for yourself. Push the shame and embrace it. No one cares anyways
It implies a defensive structure. I.e the advantage I get out of low status.
Op even refers to the concept of moats as used in business, but clumsily hand waves the concept to fit her own.
The cage of low status would be more apt
OP is using the term moat in the standard way, actually. Something you have to cross to get to the reward (skill at a particular thing), that most people won't pay the cost for (being temporarily bad at something and low status). It stops most people from even trying to compete.
Quote from the article:
"It’s called a moat because it’s an effective bar to getting where you’re trying to go, and operates much like a moat in the business sense — as a barrier to entry that keeps people on the inside (who are already good at something) safe from competition from the horde of people on the outside (who could be)."
I started posting on LinkedIn this year. I was afraid all the time there will be assholes coming out of woods to just say “you’re an idiot take this post down” - it happened once in 6 months so not bad. Other asshole was reposting my stuff picking on the details basically making content out of me.
Blocking was effective and shadow banning is great as those most likely moved on not even knowing I blocked them.
This article is countersignaling. It also happens to be directionally correct.
There is absolutely nothing low status about being present-day Cate Hall. But present-day Cate Hall probably tried and pushed through a lot of really tough stuff in part because yesteryear Cate Hall had this mindset. It so happened that she also had the talent to actually end up in impressive places.
The real lesson one should probably take from a person like this is that learning to eyeball your own strengths and weaknesses before you start down the long path of honing them is really important. If you are low status now but you have reason to believe you will become much higher status in the future by persevering, then persevere. If not...
People have always asked me: Why don’t you have a big house or <status-symbol-x> or <status-symbol-y>?
My response is always: Because I could use that capital to try something new. Granted, there were a few times I wish I had the house because of the market bumps but stocks have made up for it.
People are scared of failing, scared of losing the precarious position they have built up over the years. The housing market has made that 10x worse with the prices but humans need to try different things, learn different things. You can’t just do one thing for 70 years. My father had 4 careers, 3 wives, 5 children throughout his lifetime. 2 degrees. I’ve had 1 wife, 1 child, 1 career, 1 degree, because the world is 100x more expensive now. This is what prohibits us from finding our ikigai.
I've been trying to live more authentically in general these past few years, making tiny little inroads one step at a time towards being someone I've consciously chosen, rather than merely exist in a safe form that doesn't risk alienating others (or rather, in a form I don't perceive to alienate others - obviously I am not a mindreader). Think classic tech neutral outfits (jeans and neutral shirts, neutral shoes, neutral socks, the sole piece of color being the Pride band of my Apple Watch). OCD hurts the process of trying to live authentically, because it's doing its damndest to ensure I never encounter harm.
So last night, after coming down from some flower and watching the evening roll in, I decided to put on an outfit I'd put together. All sorts of bright colors: neon green and black sneakers, bright pink shirt, sapphire blue denim jean shorts, bleached white socks - and went for a walk. OCD was INCREDIBLY self-conscious that I would stand out (duh), court the wrong sort of attention, or somehow find myself in trouble...for wearing things I see everyone else wear without any issue whatsoever.
The moat is real, and the mind wants to build barriers to minimize perceived harms; for neurodivergent folks, it can be downright crippling. Wallflowering at parties, never gambling on colors or bold styles, never taking on new challenges for risk of failure. It results in a life so boring, sterile, and uninteresting - to yourself, and to others.
So...yeah. I got nothing to add other than my personal nuggets of experience. Really glad this piece came past on HN today, I think a lot of folks are going to enjoy its message.