The progression from unergonomic garbage default to splits and ~glovey form makes sense (with the future more sensitive per-finger sensors allowing for more gestures?), though it's a pity the health issues were involved, and that the resulting niche is small and expensive. Where are all the cheep rubber dome splits? Those would already offer health advantage without the mechanical premium...
By the way, the layout might better use physical direction mnemonics, so backspace could be a finger move to the left, and delete - move to the right (either by the same finger or maybe by its mirrored counterpart on another hand). Similar thing for <> and -+-+
> north keys are much harder to hit than its south keys,
> find the inward lateral keys much easier to hit than the north keys
So, basically, "grabbing" movements are more natural?
The only halfway decent player in this category was Microsoft, with its line of Natural Keyboards. I've used four or five of them, decent enough. I doubt Microsoft was making a lot of money.
The line was discontinued in 2023 and sold to Incase:
For most people the south keys and center are easier to press and more importantly hold. I don't care much about directions anymore, except for holding down keys.
Layout is a personal thing, we use Vial, so different people have different layouts, mine has a ton of mnemonics in it. It's really up to the user what they want, I'd be surprised if there are 2 Svalboards with the same layout. (Maybe stock when they are starting out, but people develop their own opinions pretty quickly.)
Whoever is first to mass-produce a cheap rubber-dome split columnar keyboard is going to sell a lot of keyboards, and kick the ergo keyboard revolution into high gear. Just imagine selling 90% of a $349 keyboard.io Model 100 for $20, and it only cost you $3 to make. Throw it on the shelves and watch it sell itself. It's a novelty. It's an accessibility tool. It's the first step into a new hobby. You wouldn't even need to advertise; people would buy it just because it's interesting.
I finally made it into a Micro Center yesterday. There isn't one anywhere near my home state, so I jumped at the opportunity. What did I buy? Two ortholinear keyboards. There is a huge market for these things, and even the geekiest big-box store in the nation only bothers to sell 2. Why? Because nobody wants to spend more than $30 on something they haven't ever tried.
Keychron has some "ergonomic" mechanical keyboards that are fairly affordable. It's not perfect (no tent, no split), but overall it's a nice compromise.
I have loved split ergo boards since childhood. Several years ago I found the sp111 board and truly think this is my endgame. I am right handed, so a southpaw numpad just makes SO much sense to me. Plus I use it for gaming so it's like a built in gaming macropad.
I also have a kinesis advantage 2 with some insanely nice switches, but never use it just because of the learning curve.
I tried the ergodox, but eventually resold it (came from a typematrix).
But I like most my Kinesis Advantage 360.
Strangely, I find myself using dictation more and more while working. With a headset on, people don’t notice much since it looks and sound like being in a virtual meeting.
I am a longtime (25+ years) Datahand user. I have converted my units to a USB capable controller long ago and I have some extra ones as spares/parts but it might be difficult to get another 25 years out of them.
Haven't tried the Svalboard yet but it's the only obvious way forward that I know of so happy to see any new information about it. I'd be especially interested in the opinion of other Datahand users regarding the Svalboard, specifically the hardware, the switches and overall feel.
My big fear would be that the same thing would happen that happens with vim: you get so used to it that you resent its absence. With Vim I can at least enable some kind of mode in many typing environments, but if I started loving the Svalboard itd mean that I could never use laptops again without feeling at least a bit annoyed.
One thing that usually doesn't get mentioned is what happens when someone else needs to quickly use the computer for whatever. Like a coworker helping you to check something, for which I just leave them the controls; or a partner doing a quick google while we discuss about where to travel next. I'm just making up scenarios, but the point is that not having an additional backup keyboard effectively makes the machine unusable for anyone else; this could jokingly be a pro, but more seriously it seems to be a hidrance for collaboration. And unless living in a cave, we collaborate with other human beings sooner or later. So an additional keyboard it is...
the same happened to me when I used the Elecom Huge trackball... I'd want someone to check something and they wouldn't even know how to left click :) (it's done with the thumb)
I can see where you're coming from but this seems to be an argument against ergonomic tech like left handed scissors or alternative input tools. If it's a personal tool and you'll be using for hours a day, shouldn't it be as best adapted fo you as possible? Surely collaboration can still occurr through workarounds
Is there evidence that minimizing finger movement is ergonomically desirable? It seems like "repetitive" is a key part of RSI, so making the exact same small motion over and over again may not be optimal.
I think about piano players, who obviously need to move their hands and arms a lot to hit the keys (and with more force). Definitely takes a lot more energy than typing on a computer keyboard, but is there evidence that it's any more or less likely to cause injury?
I used a split tenting ortholinear keyboard (ergodox) for a long time but oddly when I built my own custom old-fashioned keyboard (staggered keys, not split, tons of keys based on a Lisp machine keyboard) it basically eliminated all hand pain. I don't know if I found the perfect key switch for my hand or what but it's better than my ergodox ever was.
After decades of typing I recently started having a "tender" feeling in my finger tips. I went to an orthopedic surgeon and he said it's not carpal tunnel, but simply over use. Other than taking breaks, stretching, and not getting in the habit of working at night, can anyone give some practical advice that helped them? Do I need to stretch more? Strengthen? Change my diet? It's not too bad but I'm wondering how I can go on like this for ten or twenty more years.
Had a coworker in the 90's who had the DataHand Pro II and used it with Dvorak layout. Apparently, it also had integrated mouse emulation. I recall they had platforms installed on their office chair to allow for less strain than tabletop and lap use.
I used the Microsoft Natural for a while because I was poor and couldn't afford $600 USD for a DH. If they priced it at $150-250 then, they probably would still be in business today.
I sometimes think about trying keyboard things like this, but I'm pretty much always on the go with my laptop.
My desk at home can be described as just the horizontal surface that happens to be near where I sleep and sometimes do other stuff, not my primary place of doing computer activities.
Is there some kind of very portable ergonomic/alternative typing device? Maybe something designed for steno or whatever. It would be cool if I could just hold it in my hands, since often that'd be more comfortable than the surface my laptop is on.
Some models include a carrying case, but I'm not sure I'd describe them as "very portable". For example the Glove80 has a hard-shelled case, but the case itself is probably bigger than most laptops. The Moonlander packs smaller into a soft case that folds like a wallet, but it's less protective.
There are designs with far fewer keys that could probably be carried around more easily, but then you have to learn their layer/chording system.
The Svalboard has an extra issue that some folks prefer it to be placed below desk height, such as attached to a chair or sitting on an under-desk shelf, so it's not something you can generally just put on a table in front of the computer.
19 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 54.5 ms ] threadBy the way, the layout might better use physical direction mnemonics, so backspace could be a finger move to the left, and delete - move to the right (either by the same finger or maybe by its mirrored counterpart on another hand). Similar thing for <> and -+-+
> north keys are much harder to hit than its south keys, > find the inward lateral keys much easier to hit than the north keys
So, basically, "grabbing" movements are more natural?
The only halfway decent player in this category was Microsoft, with its line of Natural Keyboards. I've used four or five of them, decent enough. I doubt Microsoft was making a lot of money.
The line was discontinued in 2023 and sold to Incase:
https://www.incase.com/pages/incase-designed-by-microsoft-co...
For most people the south keys and center are easier to press and more importantly hold. I don't care much about directions anymore, except for holding down keys.
Layout is a personal thing, we use Vial, so different people have different layouts, mine has a ton of mnemonics in it. It's really up to the user what they want, I'd be surprised if there are 2 Svalboards with the same layout. (Maybe stock when they are starting out, but people develop their own opinions pretty quickly.)
I finally made it into a Micro Center yesterday. There isn't one anywhere near my home state, so I jumped at the opportunity. What did I buy? Two ortholinear keyboards. There is a huge market for these things, and even the geekiest big-box store in the nation only bothers to sell 2. Why? Because nobody wants to spend more than $30 on something they haven't ever tried.
I also have a kinesis advantage 2 with some insanely nice switches, but never use it just because of the learning curve.
I tried the ergodox, but eventually resold it (came from a typematrix). But I like most my Kinesis Advantage 360.
Strangely, I find myself using dictation more and more while working. With a headset on, people don’t notice much since it looks and sound like being in a virtual meeting.
Coding is still best with a keyboard.
Haven't tried the Svalboard yet but it's the only obvious way forward that I know of so happy to see any new information about it. I'd be especially interested in the opinion of other Datahand users regarding the Svalboard, specifically the hardware, the switches and overall feel.
the same happened to me when I used the Elecom Huge trackball... I'd want someone to check something and they wouldn't even know how to left click :) (it's done with the thumb)
I think about piano players, who obviously need to move their hands and arms a lot to hit the keys (and with more force). Definitely takes a lot more energy than typing on a computer keyboard, but is there evidence that it's any more or less likely to cause injury?
I used the Microsoft Natural for a while because I was poor and couldn't afford $600 USD for a DH. If they priced it at $150-250 then, they probably would still be in business today.
Is there some kind of very portable ergonomic/alternative typing device? Maybe something designed for steno or whatever. It would be cool if I could just hold it in my hands, since often that'd be more comfortable than the surface my laptop is on.
There are designs with far fewer keys that could probably be carried around more easily, but then you have to learn their layer/chording system.
The Svalboard has an extra issue that some folks prefer it to be placed below desk height, such as attached to a chair or sitting on an under-desk shelf, so it's not something you can generally just put on a table in front of the computer.