Something I've noticed with German business law is that it is very much structured in such a way that if you aren't an incumbent player, you are essentially incentivized to be absorbed by them.
In the US we do have issues with businesses, but it's not like the Bosch, Thyssen, or Tschira family are any less unethical.
The level of hierarchy I've noticed in German firms and founders is insane to say the least. I'd love to do some quantitative research into this, but I haven't been in academia or policy for years now.
> And then your exit tax is calculated by taking the average of the past 3 years of earnings of that company, multiplied by 13.75 (which is crazy), and then taking 60% of that which is taxed at your personal income tax rate (likely 42%; Teileinkünfteverfahren)
This does not match the results from 5 minutes of googling, not for individuals at least. What is being taxed is the shares you're holding, as if you're selling them, which results in a tax on their increase in value compared to when you've bought them. [disclaimer: I just did a quick search on this, I'm not a tax consultant or lawyer.]
I haven't looked for the regulations on companies moving their headquarters away from Germany. It's possible those rules are the above, and the author confused them with the rules for individuals.
Either way, if the author believes they're right, they should dig up some citations. There are none in that article. Is this based on advice they've received? Did they do their own research? Are they a tax consultant or lawyer? 13.75 is a very "spottable" number, how about a link to the law that has that number?
yep, there’s a reason these people start their businesses in stable economied countries, yet certain groups of them do everything to pretend they owe nothing back.
i’d love to see a comprehensive study on how much corporate tax avoidance costs a country vs food stamps so we can get an accurate view on who leeches/gains more. my suspicion is corporate wage theft/tax avoidance/evasion/subsidies are significantly higher, particularly if we add in executives and major stock holders.
In the article it shows that very rich owners can evade the tax (probably they've already planned and left!), while middle class people the tax wipes out their business and probably send them bankrupt. It's more like handcuffs than socialism.
I am sure they could achieve the same goals of fair tax but learn some game theory before doing so.
The idea that a company is "siphoning out" value is fundamentally flawed. The company is creating value, and society enables it.
This enablement is ongoing, and should be paid for with ongoing tax.
If the actual value creator decides that they can get a better deal somewhere else, then barriers to exit come in because the government is trying to get more out of a company than it provided. (Since if there are superior places to operate, the worth of what the state you are leaving provides must be overvalued, otherwise you wouldn't leave).
This comment breaches the guidelines and is not conducive to the kind of discussion we're trying to cultivate on HN. It's an important and difficult topic, and thus care needs to be taken to avoid getting activated, then commenting in ways that activate charged reactions in those who see things differently, as this is what takes threads into flamewar hell.
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They do tax on residency rather than citizenship. If you are a structured embezzler in another country, than expect the CRA auditors after 184 days in Canada.
Also, Canadian laws don't stop at the border as a citizen... so breaking laws in other places still puts you in legal peril for extradition.
Notably, corporate tax rates are often much lower in Canada, and export free trade is available with most trading partners. Note the US taxes on citizenship regardless of where you live (or if you hold multiple citizenship), and failure to file your IRS statement was an $8k fine last I heard. The fine often stays even if you owe the IRS $0, and temporarily live in another region.
The TLDR version: talk with corporate tax accountants in each region before filing, and do not assume the late tax filing fines will magically not apply to your situation. AMCHAM will usually help guide investors on their filing obligations for type C corporations in the US. =3
It's an exit taxes, but as far as I'm aware, it simply taxes you on all assets as if you disposed of them the day you leave.
That doesn't seem particularly unfair. If you can image a scenario where someone buy Apple at $1, and it's now worth $1,000. They just leave Canada, pay no tax, then sell in a low tax jurisdiction.
However, it can be a massive pain in the ass for illiquid assets or assets you don't intend to sell at that point in time. A good example might be a pension. Getting hit with a tens of thousand dollar tax bill for a pension you won't receive for another 2 decades is painful.
As someone running a business in germany, they do everything but encourage small businesses. It is extremely painful to run a business in this country, it has archaic systems and the only reason I’m successful is because of surrounding european countries like Netherlands who handle 90% of my products with efficiency.
I do not rely on most suppliers here as they are far behind in their systems (relying on phone calls, hidden prices and slow response times).
The other half of my business is successful is because of America, I use suppliers there to ship directly to my customers for environmental reasons.
Trust me when I say, I run a business despite being here and there’s nothing that they do to “encourage us”. I’m just stubborn.
> You could, of course, sell or wind down your company, which would solve all problems outlined here. But this is not an option for most entrepreneurs.
For a software business, you could presumably:
- Incorporate a company in your country of choice
- Transfer subscribers from German company to new foreign company (depending on payments provider, this can be a massive effort, for example, not a simple form field in Stripe).
- If new company incorporated in a country you want to live in, use it to obtain an investor Visa
- German company now has 0 in revenue, wind it down and leave.
I dont see how you couldn't structure this with an offshore licensing deal. Ie Irish company picks up 99% of billing, German company sends Irish company license fees etc and reduce profit of German company to zero for three years.
Oli (Oliver? Not sure which you prefer, which I realize now I should have asked a long time ago in our first call) -
Just wanted to reiterate that I really appreciate what you have done with both OpenRegulatory and Formwork, as it was a big unlock for one of the companies I helped a few years ago as we navigated our way into the QMS / FDA / med. reg. world.
While reading this as a many-times-over-founder myself, I deeply felt multiple emotions which this would bring upon me if I were in your shoes after all the work I know you’ve put in.
I hope you are able to navigate this to a happy / successful outcome for yourself and any others involved for the relevant compan(y/ies)!
I am grateful for what you have contributed over the years on the software and documentation fronts with OpenRegulatory and Formwork both.
The developed world is increasingly facing a funding crisis brought on by this propaganda that if we tax corporations and the very wealthy then they'll leave.
One of the most farcical examples of this is the decades-long race to the bottom on business taxes and incentives between Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas. For the non-Americans out there, this is basically one city but it sits at the border of two states. So the two states are constantly torching money to lure businesses that play this system and simply go back and forth.
I believe this situation will come to an end and there are several reasons for this:
1. For the EU in particular, reliance on US tech giants is increasingly becoming a security issue. The Eu will increasingly wants homegrown alternatives so the option of leaving will simply not exist because you could leave but then you lose the EU as a customer;
2. For a long time multinational companies used transfer pricing to avoid paying taxes. What's transfer pricing? Let's say you buy a sofa in China for @200, ship it to the US for another $200 and then sell it for $1000. You've made a gross profit of $600. What if instead you have a subsidiary in Vanuatu, which has no corporate income tax (AFAIK), and it buys the sofas for $400 and sell them to the US company for $950? Well, you've booked $550 in profit where there's no tax and only $50 profit where there is.
That's technically illegal. It's often-called transfer pricing manipulation.
So what do tech giants like Google do? They sell their IP to an Irish subsidiary. There's a nominal process to make sure this is done for a "fair" value (according to the IRS). Then they pay royalties to their own Irish subsidiary to shift profits to a lower tax regime. Previously, this created a problem because they couldn't repatriate the money without paying (then) 30%+ corporate taxes but this all changed in 2017 with a tax holiday and a change to how this kind of income was treated. The net result was way lower than 30% net tax however, even with Biden's 15% minimum tax (which was a good thing) that came later.
What's the difference between this kind of profit-shifting with IP and transfer pricing manipulation? Absolutely nothing, except one is illegal and one isn't.
3. Revenue will increasigly have to be taxed in the source country. For example, Google I believe books all UK ad contracts through Ireland such that the UK subsidiary has essentially zero income to tax. I believe governments will increasingly crack down on this such that if something is sold in the UK, it's taxed by the UK; and
4. While individuals may be able to notionally "leave", assets generally can't. Land can't be moved overseas. Natural resources that are mined or fished or logged can't be moved overseas. So it's really an empty threat.
I'm really sick of this "the businesses will leave" propaganda.
Berlin wall of tax? Seriously? Nobody gets shot trying to cross the border here and it's clear that the ones who can afford a decent financial advisory will get around most of the regulations anyways.
I don't see how this business economist whining belongs on hn.
I wasn't joking at all when I previously said in [0], moves like this is how to lose and now this is another reason why tech founders do not start companies in Europe and when a company gets too big, especially in Germany.
Just don't be surprised to see a decline in tax revenue when countries like Germany chase the wealth creators out of the country with high taxes + exit taxes.
> The purpose of this rule is to tax the increase in value of these shares that came about in Germany but has not yet been realised before they are able to escape the reach of German taxes by the move abroad.
Doesn't sound all that crazy to me.
Also, the proposed analogy to the Berlin wall feels quite pathetic for those that have actually lived behind it.
> People say Germany is a good country for being an employee, and this is also true for exit tax.
Which proves again that regulatory environment is downstream from culture: In a country like Germany, with Europe’s lowest share of entrepreneurs/workforce, there is very little political emphasis on creating comfortable environments for the out-group.
Most Germans can’t relate to these people at all, and every awareness campaign have to incorporate teaching the target audience (in order to make them understand the problem in the first place). A meticulous, tenacious, undertaking one can imagine that immediately gets stomped once the political gravy train comes around full steam with anti-capitalist or otherwise hyperbolic rhetoric.
(I haven’t looked but would bet that adherents to this rhetoric are already at it even in the comments here, pointing out how deserved the exit tax is etc)
77 comments
[ 26.5 ms ] story [ 1470 ms ] threadIn the US we do have issues with businesses, but it's not like the Bosch, Thyssen, or Tschira family are any less unethical.
The level of hierarchy I've noticed in German firms and founders is insane to say the least. I'd love to do some quantitative research into this, but I haven't been in academia or policy for years now.
So selling them presumably doesn't help.
This does not match the results from 5 minutes of googling, not for individuals at least. What is being taxed is the shares you're holding, as if you're selling them, which results in a tax on their increase in value compared to when you've bought them. [disclaimer: I just did a quick search on this, I'm not a tax consultant or lawyer.]
I haven't looked for the regulations on companies moving their headquarters away from Germany. It's possible those rules are the above, and the author confused them with the rules for individuals.
Either way, if the author believes they're right, they should dig up some citations. There are none in that article. Is this based on advice they've received? Did they do their own research? Are they a tax consultant or lawyer? 13.75 is a very "spottable" number, how about a link to the law that has that number?
Excuse me, why I need state permission for building business?
i’d love to see a comprehensive study on how much corporate tax avoidance costs a country vs food stamps so we can get an accurate view on who leeches/gains more. my suspicion is corporate wage theft/tax avoidance/evasion/subsidies are significantly higher, particularly if we add in executives and major stock holders.
I am sure they could achieve the same goals of fair tax but learn some game theory before doing so.
Please take a moment to read the guidelines and make an effort to observe them in future, particularly these ones:
Be kind. Don't be snarky. Converse curiously; don't cross-examine. Edit out swipes.
Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.
Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.
Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes.
Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity.
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
Also, Canadian laws don't stop at the border as a citizen... so breaking laws in other places still puts you in legal peril for extradition.
Notably, corporate tax rates are often much lower in Canada, and export free trade is available with most trading partners. Note the US taxes on citizenship regardless of where you live (or if you hold multiple citizenship), and failure to file your IRS statement was an $8k fine last I heard. The fine often stays even if you owe the IRS $0, and temporarily live in another region.
The TLDR version: talk with corporate tax accountants in each region before filing, and do not assume the late tax filing fines will magically not apply to your situation. AMCHAM will usually help guide investors on their filing obligations for type C corporations in the US. =3
That doesn't seem particularly unfair. If you can image a scenario where someone buy Apple at $1, and it's now worth $1,000. They just leave Canada, pay no tax, then sell in a low tax jurisdiction.
However, it can be a massive pain in the ass for illiquid assets or assets you don't intend to sell at that point in time. A good example might be a pension. Getting hit with a tens of thousand dollar tax bill for a pension you won't receive for another 2 decades is painful.
I do not rely on most suppliers here as they are far behind in their systems (relying on phone calls, hidden prices and slow response times).
The other half of my business is successful is because of America, I use suppliers there to ship directly to my customers for environmental reasons.
Trust me when I say, I run a business despite being here and there’s nothing that they do to “encourage us”. I’m just stubborn.
> You could, of course, sell or wind down your company, which would solve all problems outlined here. But this is not an option for most entrepreneurs.
For a software business, you could presumably:
- Incorporate a company in your country of choice
- Transfer subscribers from German company to new foreign company (depending on payments provider, this can be a massive effort, for example, not a simple form field in Stripe).
- If new company incorporated in a country you want to live in, use it to obtain an investor Visa
- German company now has 0 in revenue, wind it down and leave.
Just wanted to reiterate that I really appreciate what you have done with both OpenRegulatory and Formwork, as it was a big unlock for one of the companies I helped a few years ago as we navigated our way into the QMS / FDA / med. reg. world.
While reading this as a many-times-over-founder myself, I deeply felt multiple emotions which this would bring upon me if I were in your shoes after all the work I know you’ve put in.
I hope you are able to navigate this to a happy / successful outcome for yourself and any others involved for the relevant compan(y/ies)!
I am grateful for what you have contributed over the years on the software and documentation fronts with OpenRegulatory and Formwork both.
One of the most farcical examples of this is the decades-long race to the bottom on business taxes and incentives between Kansas City, Missouri and Kansas City, Kansas. For the non-Americans out there, this is basically one city but it sits at the border of two states. So the two states are constantly torching money to lure businesses that play this system and simply go back and forth.
I believe this situation will come to an end and there are several reasons for this:
1. For the EU in particular, reliance on US tech giants is increasingly becoming a security issue. The Eu will increasingly wants homegrown alternatives so the option of leaving will simply not exist because you could leave but then you lose the EU as a customer;
2. For a long time multinational companies used transfer pricing to avoid paying taxes. What's transfer pricing? Let's say you buy a sofa in China for @200, ship it to the US for another $200 and then sell it for $1000. You've made a gross profit of $600. What if instead you have a subsidiary in Vanuatu, which has no corporate income tax (AFAIK), and it buys the sofas for $400 and sell them to the US company for $950? Well, you've booked $550 in profit where there's no tax and only $50 profit where there is.
That's technically illegal. It's often-called transfer pricing manipulation.
So what do tech giants like Google do? They sell their IP to an Irish subsidiary. There's a nominal process to make sure this is done for a "fair" value (according to the IRS). Then they pay royalties to their own Irish subsidiary to shift profits to a lower tax regime. Previously, this created a problem because they couldn't repatriate the money without paying (then) 30%+ corporate taxes but this all changed in 2017 with a tax holiday and a change to how this kind of income was treated. The net result was way lower than 30% net tax however, even with Biden's 15% minimum tax (which was a good thing) that came later.
What's the difference between this kind of profit-shifting with IP and transfer pricing manipulation? Absolutely nothing, except one is illegal and one isn't.
3. Revenue will increasigly have to be taxed in the source country. For example, Google I believe books all UK ad contracts through Ireland such that the UK subsidiary has essentially zero income to tax. I believe governments will increasingly crack down on this such that if something is sold in the UK, it's taxed by the UK; and
4. While individuals may be able to notionally "leave", assets generally can't. Land can't be moved overseas. Natural resources that are mined or fished or logged can't be moved overseas. So it's really an empty threat.
I'm really sick of this "the businesses will leave" propaganda.
Just don't be surprised to see a decline in tax revenue when countries like Germany chase the wealth creators out of the country with high taxes + exit taxes.
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44134832
> The purpose of this rule is to tax the increase in value of these shares that came about in Germany but has not yet been realised before they are able to escape the reach of German taxes by the move abroad.
Doesn't sound all that crazy to me.
Also, the proposed analogy to the Berlin wall feels quite pathetic for those that have actually lived behind it.
Which proves again that regulatory environment is downstream from culture: In a country like Germany, with Europe’s lowest share of entrepreneurs/workforce, there is very little political emphasis on creating comfortable environments for the out-group.
Most Germans can’t relate to these people at all, and every awareness campaign have to incorporate teaching the target audience (in order to make them understand the problem in the first place). A meticulous, tenacious, undertaking one can imagine that immediately gets stomped once the political gravy train comes around full steam with anti-capitalist or otherwise hyperbolic rhetoric.
(I haven’t looked but would bet that adherents to this rhetoric are already at it even in the comments here, pointing out how deserved the exit tax is etc)
https://www.greenbacktaxservices.com/knowledge-center/exit-t...