The EU already told Apple in April 25 that the preliminary findings regarding the conditions they impose on alt stores and developers distributing through alt stores are in violation of the DMA.
Apple fully knows they are looking forward to a huge fine. I guess they are banning a torrent app here to be able to tell: look the EU is sponsoring piracy. They are also trying to get Trump to intervene on their behalf obviously. Given how spineless the current European Commission is, that might even work.
To my fellow European, my advice remains the same: boycott American companies, stop voting for parties affiliated with the EPP.
As an American I would advise people to, when practical, boycott these companies, regardless of their country of origin, when they do things anti-consumer/anti-ownership. But more importantly we should demand our communities/governments to break these companies up and take more measures to reduce their power to do these things.
> The EU already told Apple in April 25 that the preliminary findings regarding the conditions they impose on alt stores and developers distributing through alt stores are in violation of the DMA.
Preliminary findings from the European Commission are legally meaningless. The EU court of justice has annulled fines against tech companies before, ruling that the EC has not done enough of an investigation. For example, here is a ruling that confirms that the one billion Euro fine against Intel should have been annulled because the EC did not do a satisfactory investigation:
I mean it has already been shown that needing a license to sell apps in an alternate store is in violation. I feel we need to be moving to non-punative fines for every day Apple violate.
Two days, two app store news. Yesterday it was Google and there was a large discussion.
And today it is Apple, and I'm curious to see whether HN folks feel the similar passion. Historically, people pick up pitch forks for Google but give Apple a pass - so looking forward to the conversation here.
the article that caused such outrage yesterday was about Google making it more difficult for devs to deploy arbitrary software on Android mobile devices outside of the official store. This is something that Apple does not allow at all for devs on iOS devices (except in regions where forced to by law). I don't like Google's changes, but its still better than Apple's stance.
As one of the people objecting to Google's actions yesterday, I think I was pretty clear that I was objecting to them descending to Apple's level, not below.
This is the behaviour I, unfortunately, expect out of Apple.
We aren’t a monolith, as evidenced by the supportive comments in response to yours and throughout the comments here. I also don’t think Apple deserves a pass.
Mostly because the people who want sideloading are using Android. And on Android the situation is constantly getting worse, while on iOS it's largely just sticking to the status quo.
Nevertheless, this serves as an excellent demonstration of the problem with the changes Google are making, since they would allow Google to do exactly what Apple just did.
I admit that many give apple a pass, but I think the outrage is greater for Google because people think there's a chance they'll actually listen to their consumers
I think most people concerned with sovereignty over their own devices gave up on Apple long ago.
This is the kind of conduct I expect from Apple and the reason I have no interest in using one of their devices. I think it's bad for them to do this. I think it's bad for them to have the ability to do this. I don't think ranting about it on HN will accomplish anything. It has been this way for nearly 20 years and it will only change if governments make even stricter laws against it.
Google, on the other hand is trying to lock down a previously (somewhat) open platform. That's a rug pull for those who picked Android for its openness, and it's possible that sufficient outrage from the tech community will stop that plan.
That looks actually healthy! I don’t understand the fixation on wanting to make Apple allow anything on their platform. Don’t like the platform? Don’t buy the hardware. It’s simple.
I don't feel similar passion but that's because I don't have an iphone and gave up on ios long ago. I use android because it gave me more freedom. The freedom to root my phone, the freedom to install whatever app I wanted to.
I use a macbook pro as my main laptop because macos is bearable (also it's become steadily worse in the last few years) and their hardware is great. But, ipads and iphones are just locked down trash from my perspective and I refuse to use money to get a device that I can't control.
There seems to be a difference between Google announcing an official policy change and speculation about why this developer is having issues distributing their app.
As mentioned in TFA:
> While there may be a perfectly logical explanation for iTorrent’s revoked rights, Apple’s handling of the matter so far only fuels speculation. Some might even argue that the lack of transparency in revoking distribution rights violates the letter or the spirit of the EU’s Digital Markets Act.
If Apple is truly trying to block an app that has substantial legal uses that is being distributed outside of its own App Store, there is a problem.
You will not see the same level of engagement. Many more people care about changes to sideloading on Android as a whole than something affecting one torrent app on one app store in one region on iOS.
Between this and Google announcing their move to a similar system for controlling third-party Android developers, I feel like FAANG is declaring itself above the law.
Apple's prior approach to DMA compliance was to loudly grumble about it, but do the absolute bare minimum to kinda sorta comply if you squint at it. The whole idea with iOS notarization was that Apple was ceding control over iOS apps for editorial but not technical reasons; i.e. that they'd only ever refuse to sign an app because it broke iOS, used private APIs, or was literal malware. Not because they didn't like it. This scheme is already kind of dubious, if OAMA had passed it would definitely be illegal in the US, but I'm told EU regulators enforce the law differently than in the US[0].
Now Google wants to adopt the same system Apple has just proven doesn't work. I hope the EU regulators are not only listening, but willing to actually fight this. The related debacle of digital services taxes would indicate that the EU is spineless enough that Apple thinks the DMA is already unenforceable enough to start killing apps they don't like.
[0] US regulation is something like "if we say jump, each foot must leave the ground for at least 0.8 seconds and clear at least 20cm off the ground", and then people figure out you can just lift one foot at a time and still comply. EU regulation is more like "if we say jump, you must jump", and then the regulators decide whether or not you made a good-faith attempt at jumping. So no stupid loopholes like lifting one foot at a time, but the regulators can be very subjective as to if you jumped high enough or not.
The developer had his app distribution rights removed in mid-July.
i am the one who reached out to TorrentFreak; they were the first to respond. (The Verge /MacRumors/9to5Mac ignored me)
> This app using Firebase Analytics and so it collects next information from your device:
I wonder how the data compares to the data Apple could send and do they respect when user's have opted to NOT send app developers data?
I know when you first sign on to the App Store it prompts you about 2 things, sending Apple data, and sending app developers data.
*EDIT* I know it's not fair and doesn't mean they're all bad but given the current circumstances in the world, I am going to be quite skeptical of developers with .ru in their email or anything else.
We need a law saying users can run exactly what software they want on their own devices. If people are worried about malware or whatever, have the apps be optionally notarised and big warning's if they aren't. I do not want any company or government telling me what software can run on my devices that I paid for and I own. This is clearly against the spirit of the DMA.
I never understood why would people want that. Apple is very clear from the start they are limiting what can run on the devices they sell. Why on earth would you buy these if you need to run arbitrary code on it??
Also this is problematic for the people who actually look at what they are buying and actually want to have only limited software allowed on the device (e.g. me).
Every time I am tempted to switch to iPhone, it does not take long for me to remember that Apple is a hostile enemy.
FWIW, I get tempted to switch when my Android starts feeling like it works for Google and not for me. The advantage of the iPhone is that it works for nobody.
It’s surprising that anyone would think EU politicians might punish Apple for deplatforming a single BitTorrent app. Surely those politicians aren’t dense enough to believe users are relying on their phones to distribute Linux ISOs.
iTorrent's ability to play while "sharing" was the bridge too far. There are plenty of players for personal media in the App Store (Plex, Jellyfin, etc.), but as a BitTorrent client it's clear that its primary purpose was to play media that was vanishingly unlikely to be the user's.
It also didn’t help that AltStore PAL regularly spotlighted these apps, basically taunting corpos and eurocrats alike. On the bright side, qBitControl won’t be affected, since it isn’t a BitTorrent client itself but merely a remote for qBittorrent.
> This allows for easier access to software that's typically prohibited by Apple, including the popular iTorrent BitTorrent client.
Just as the regulators planned, I'm sure. I really doubt anyone will have luck getting apple to approve an app which is so often used to distribute copyright content and malware, and I doubt the EU is going to fight for people to be allowed to download movies illegally
I play video games through emulation and using vision LLM's and OCR to tell me what's going on in a particular moment. Only Google employees get to use Astra right now. But I can't play anything passed PS1 and PSP with the most accessible mobile OS, iOS, because Apple needs Safari to win so no JIT for other apps. But at least on Android I can play PS2 and get TalkBack to describe the screen.
To be honest, I am tired of seeing people complaining and yet using, buying Apple's goods.
So why are even complaining for??
We all know that the current Apple will go until the last consequence before reverting anything.
If you continue using their devices, you are agreeing with their practices.
Apple business model is no longer based on the sales of hardware as it tanked, but 30% cut from the Apple Store.
Thanks to Epic, that income has been severely affected making it very easy to hit Apple where it hurts: Their pocket.
Apple will never listen while folks keep using their services, buying new iPhone that is just the same crappy year after year.
Update August 28: A day after publication, Apple informed us that the distribution rights (notarization) were revoked due to sanctions-related rules.
“Notarization for this app was removed in order to comply with government sanctions-related rules in various jurisdictions. We have communicated this to the developer,” Apple told us.
No further context was provided, but the developer purportedly had a Russian developer account, despite living in Malta.
This is exactly why alternative app stores matter. Apple's control over iOS app distribution has always been too centralized.
The EU's Digital Markets Act is forcing some competition, but Apple is clearly going to make alternative distribution as difficult as possible within the legal boundaries.
Developers need options. A single company shouldn't control access to billions of users' devices.
42 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 54.1 ms ] threadApple fully knows they are looking forward to a huge fine. I guess they are banning a torrent app here to be able to tell: look the EU is sponsoring piracy. They are also trying to get Trump to intervene on their behalf obviously. Given how spineless the current European Commission is, that might even work.
To my fellow European, my advice remains the same: boycott American companies, stop voting for parties affiliated with the EPP.
Preliminary findings from the European Commission are legally meaningless. The EU court of justice has annulled fines against tech companies before, ruling that the EC has not done enough of an investigation. For example, here is a ruling that confirms that the one billion Euro fine against Intel should have been annulled because the EC did not do a satisfactory investigation:
https://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/202...
And today it is Apple, and I'm curious to see whether HN folks feel the similar passion. Historically, people pick up pitch forks for Google but give Apple a pass - so looking forward to the conversation here.
TorrentFreak are the first to respond to our emails, Getting the news out is hard.
(i am the one who alerted Ernesto, but i had no input in the article.)
This is the behaviour I, unfortunately, expect out of Apple.
Nevertheless, this serves as an excellent demonstration of the problem with the changes Google are making, since they would allow Google to do exactly what Apple just did.
This is the kind of conduct I expect from Apple and the reason I have no interest in using one of their devices. I think it's bad for them to do this. I think it's bad for them to have the ability to do this. I don't think ranting about it on HN will accomplish anything. It has been this way for nearly 20 years and it will only change if governments make even stricter laws against it.
Google, on the other hand is trying to lock down a previously (somewhat) open platform. That's a rug pull for those who picked Android for its openness, and it's possible that sufficient outrage from the tech community will stop that plan.
And Apple being a middleman parasite for every app wasn't something that I had much sympathy for.
I use a macbook pro as my main laptop because macos is bearable (also it's become steadily worse in the last few years) and their hardware is great. But, ipads and iphones are just locked down trash from my perspective and I refuse to use money to get a device that I can't control.
As mentioned in TFA:
> While there may be a perfectly logical explanation for iTorrent’s revoked rights, Apple’s handling of the matter so far only fuels speculation. Some might even argue that the lack of transparency in revoking distribution rights violates the letter or the spirit of the EU’s Digital Markets Act.
If Apple is truly trying to block an app that has substantial legal uses that is being distributed outside of its own App Store, there is a problem.
This hasn't really been the case for the past year or two. People are pretty fed up with Apple's BS, even here in their historic stronghold.
However, this is beyond Apple’s own App Store, which is sort of interesting. I think it still highlights the dangers of App stores, though.
Can we now revisit the arguments that people were making in those threads to defend this?
[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39137090
Apple's prior approach to DMA compliance was to loudly grumble about it, but do the absolute bare minimum to kinda sorta comply if you squint at it. The whole idea with iOS notarization was that Apple was ceding control over iOS apps for editorial but not technical reasons; i.e. that they'd only ever refuse to sign an app because it broke iOS, used private APIs, or was literal malware. Not because they didn't like it. This scheme is already kind of dubious, if OAMA had passed it would definitely be illegal in the US, but I'm told EU regulators enforce the law differently than in the US[0].
Now Google wants to adopt the same system Apple has just proven doesn't work. I hope the EU regulators are not only listening, but willing to actually fight this. The related debacle of digital services taxes would indicate that the EU is spineless enough that Apple thinks the DMA is already unenforceable enough to start killing apps they don't like.
[0] US regulation is something like "if we say jump, each foot must leave the ground for at least 0.8 seconds and clear at least 20cm off the ground", and then people figure out you can just lift one foot at a time and still comply. EU regulation is more like "if we say jump, you must jump", and then the regulators decide whether or not you made a good-faith attempt at jumping. So no stupid loopholes like lifting one foot at a time, but the regulators can be very subjective as to if you jumped high enough or not.
https://github.com/XITRIX/iTorrent#donate-for-donuts
The developer had his app distribution rights removed in mid-July. i am the one who reached out to TorrentFreak; they were the first to respond. (The Verge /MacRumors/9to5Mac ignored me)
(i had no input in the article.)
I wonder how the data compares to the data Apple could send and do they respect when user's have opted to NOT send app developers data?
I know when you first sign on to the App Store it prompts you about 2 things, sending Apple data, and sending app developers data.
*EDIT* I know it's not fair and doesn't mean they're all bad but given the current circumstances in the world, I am going to be quite skeptical of developers with .ru in their email or anything else.
Also this is problematic for the people who actually look at what they are buying and actually want to have only limited software allowed on the device (e.g. me).
FWIW, I get tempted to switch when my Android starts feeling like it works for Google and not for me. The advantage of the iPhone is that it works for nobody.
iTorrent's ability to play while "sharing" was the bridge too far. There are plenty of players for personal media in the App Store (Plex, Jellyfin, etc.), but as a BitTorrent client it's clear that its primary purpose was to play media that was vanishingly unlikely to be the user's.
It also didn’t help that AltStore PAL regularly spotlighted these apps, basically taunting corpos and eurocrats alike. On the bright side, qBitControl won’t be affected, since it isn’t a BitTorrent client itself but merely a remote for qBittorrent.
Just as the regulators planned, I'm sure. I really doubt anyone will have luck getting apple to approve an app which is so often used to distribute copyright content and malware, and I doubt the EU is going to fight for people to be allowed to download movies illegally
https://photos.app.goo.gl/QPJmj2HmRTy7Zv3L8
So why are even complaining for??
We all know that the current Apple will go until the last consequence before reverting anything. If you continue using their devices, you are agreeing with their practices.
Apple business model is no longer based on the sales of hardware as it tanked, but 30% cut from the Apple Store. Thanks to Epic, that income has been severely affected making it very easy to hit Apple where it hurts: Their pocket.
Apple will never listen while folks keep using their services, buying new iPhone that is just the same crappy year after year.
Update August 28: A day after publication, Apple informed us that the distribution rights (notarization) were revoked due to sanctions-related rules.
“Notarization for this app was removed in order to comply with government sanctions-related rules in various jurisdictions. We have communicated this to the developer,” Apple told us.
No further context was provided, but the developer purportedly had a Russian developer account, despite living in Malta.