Yeah but with QWERTY you can type out the word 'typewriter' using only the top row of the keyboard; so if you're a typewriter salesman QWERTY is the way to go.
(Been using Dvorak for 25 years now. Doesn't matter what the physical keyboard layout is - currently I'm using a Swiss layout)
I feel the Dvorak layout has a bug. In both English and my native language, the letter 'I' occurs much more frequently than 'U', so I've switched the 'U' and 'I' keys.
Does anyone know why this issue seems to have been overlooked by August Dvorak & William Dealey, or was it by design? Perhaps it's to make typing the relatively common English digraph 'ou' a comfortable inward roll, but for me, that doesn't outweigh stretching my left index finger all the time reaching for the I.
Tech support scenarios are most frequently remote, when both the IT person and the assisted user are typing on their own keyboards, sharing the screen.
In this normal scenario, the keyboard layouts do not matter.
"Tech support" when both people are in the front of the same computer happens more between friends or colleagues, when typing speed does not matter, than in professional corporate tech support.
I use colemak so a lot of keybinds in programs are similar enough to not be too bad. Vim was surprisingly easy to adjust to, although hjkl are in terrible positions in colemak. It’s kind of nice though because it forces you not to rely on hjkl too much. For games, I usually just switch back to qwerty.
I've been using Dvorak for around 6 years now, don't know what you mean with 'universally shitty default keybinding experience'. I don't have any issues either in Emacs or in applications which use the inferior CUA keybindings. I suppose if you want to use certain keybindings one-handed it could be awkward, but I prefer holding the modifier with the opposite hand (for example right hand control + left hand 'a').
The only problem I can find is that the only Mac mod I can find with this layout that is not completely custom has an annoying and minor difference with the Windows and Linux versions of the same type of mod.
The real problem with current keyboards is the physical arrangement of the keys. Staggered rows instead of columns make them less ergonomic, the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard. The thumb as one of the strongest fingers has almost nothing to do, with both thumbs mostly sharing a single key while typing text. While the weak pinky finger has to cover more keys than the others. These things are more significant than qwerty vs dvorak.
Need to type faster? Spend some time practising every day and you will gain more speed within weeks than from just switching layouts. Most people don't as speed often isn't actually that important. I myself am bottlenecked by my brain, not my typing speed. Need less hand movement? Placing symbols, arrow keys etc as secondary function onto the central keys with a programmable keyboard helps with that, changing to dvorak doesn't as much because on a modern keyboard you can reach all letters without hand movement either way.
I switched to Dvorak around five years ago now. I decided to switch at the same time as switching to a columnar split keyboard (specifically the ZSA Moonlander, which is still my primary keyboard (my secondary is the ZSA Voyager for travel)). I did this switch at the same time, because I felt like it would be a sufficiently different keyboard that I wouldn't have as concrete of muscle memory, and I wouldn't be fighting my QWERTY instincts as much.
A big part of why I wanted to make the switch at all is because I was experiencing fatigue in my hands, and I felt that it could be due to my improper typing habits that I developed from mostly learning to type through playing videogames. I wanted to properly type from the home row, and the split columnar keyboard basically enforces that, and Dvorak makes it even easier.
I will say though, I type at about the same speed that I did before I made the switch. Switching layouts almost certainly will not enable you to type faster. Switching layouts encourages you to deliberately practice typing on that layout (I did lots of typing challenges while learning) which will make you faster. The biggest benefit for me has actually been in my back! The split keyboard allows me to rotate my shoulders back a lot more, which makes me feel way better at the end of the day. My hands are less fatigued too, but I don't feel like that was as big of a deal for me.
> the oversized spacebar wastes much of the most valuable space on the keyboard
This is what puzzles me most of the mechanical keyboard market: you can have whatever shit cramped in on a 60%/75% keyboard but the spacebar is still the long slab.
Eg: Shurikey Hanzo 001 65% is especially... bold in this
I myself am bottlenecked by my brain, not my typing speed.
If you ever have a thought that you want to put into words but need to wait for your fingers, you are being bottlenecked by your typing. Most people think and speak faster than they can type, especially in short bursts; and I'm saying that, as someone who can comfortably type at ~160-180wpm and burst over 200 for a few seconds at a time, I still find myself waiting for my fingers. Holding a conversation over IM is one of the most common places where this bottleneck becomes very noticeable.
The much reduced hand movement is extremely comfortable, paying dividends every day. And it fixed my RSI.
Of course over long periods of time we're bottlenecked by our brains. But the things to write come in bursts, and typing speed blocks there. Also transcribing what someone is saying, needs high speed.
My experience completely contradicts your assertions.
The part about hand movement confuses me. On qwerty you can reach all letters without moving the hands. On both qwerty and dvorak you still need to move or stretch the hands to reach backspace, arrow keys, escape etc. So how does dvorak reduce hand movement?
> the things to write come in bursts
In short bursts I can reach higher speeds than what I can maintain over a period of time. It's fast enough for me.
> transcribing what someone is saying, needs high speed
That's a very specific use-case and I wouldn't type fast enough for that no matter what layout. At that point I'd probably learn stenography instead.
The stagger is beneficial for the right hand but makes it harder for the left hand. An ortholinear layout is not more comfortable, ideally there should either be a symmetrical or columnar stagger.
I don't have a particular beef in the great Dvorak vs. QWERTY debate.
But I really wish I had a brain which could do things like acquire muscle memory fluency in one keyboard layout without losing it in another.
Though, I'm typing this on a swiping keyboard. It's different enough that a better layout might have been worth it here... I feel like I'm not using that much of my regular qwerty muscle memory, and what's optimal for a swiping keyboard is probably quite different from what's optimal for a typing keyboard.
I switched to Dvorak at the same time as switching to a split, columnar keyboard. I have never used Dvorak on a traditional staggered keyboard, and I have never used QWERTY on a split columnar keyboard. By separating the layout usage on such distinct form factors, I haven't lost QWERTY even after not using it as my primary for years :)
I also do still use QWERTY for touchscreen devices, because you can't keep your hands on the home row on touch screens, so you lose the benefits of Dvorak (and I actually found the common letter combos being near each other to be way more cumbersome on a touch screen).
According to this article, "a 1936 book called Typewriting Behavior" made "comparisons of the new keyboard to a jeep and the old one to an ox".
Jeeps were invented in 1941. Some origin theories of the name date back as far as WW I (but for recruits, not vehicles). If the author truly used this comparison in 1936 it would be a tremendous citation for the word's origin.
Or perhaps the comparison was made in a later edition of the book. Don't know.
I was motivated to learn Dvorak in order to get rid of bad keyboard habits. And happily stuck to it. Not sure that I type any faster, but it feels somehow as a more rhytmical, much more pleasant experience.
The rhythmic feeling is Dvorak's hand alternation. I use Colemak because it is better for my native tongue, but I really would have preferred the rhythmic typing of Dvorak had it worked as well for other languages.
I tried to convert to Dvorak. I even switched my keycaps, but when I started learning with linux application, I finished at level 3. It required me to write three different letters. When there was 1 - it was okay. When 2 - quite nice. But 3 - it made me feel pain in the back and in the brain. It felt like something was going very wrong with my nervous system. I had to quit.
It is likely that you did not have enough patience.
When planning to switch between keyboard layouts, you must be prepared to allocate at least a week in which you will not have to type anything useful at the computer, because initially your typing speed will drop tremendously and you must be able to resist the temptation of reverting to Qwerty or whichever is the layout used previously.
After a week of practice, using only the new key layout for everything, you should be able to use a computer for normal tasks, but still you will be much slower than before. After a month, you should recover your typing speed and begin to realize that typing has become much more comfortable.
It is preferable to not switch the key caps. Even if you have never achieved blind touch typing on Qwerty, it is much easier to achieve it on Dvorak and this can be a benefit of switching the keyboard layouts. At least for me, the assignment of letters to keys has been much easier to memorize for Dvorak than for Qwerty, being more logical. Of course, after enough practice, muscle memory will take over and you will no longer be aware of the key assignments.
I tried Dvorak for a while but gave up after I realized:
1. Not only are the key positions for typing different, but all the keyboard shortcuts I know needed to be re-learned too, and were often in much worse locations (as just one of many problems, Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V are no longer next to each other)
2. I still need to be good with QWERTY because basically everything uses it.
It's a shame, because it does seem more efficient (you can type a lot of words without having to move your fingers from the home row), but I just felt like it was too much work for too little gain.
For everyone complaining about the issues with app shortcuts when using Dvorak, the solution is to use a keymap that switches to QWERTY when you hold down the CTRL or CMD key. It is a bit unfortunate that common CLI commands (`ls` is the worst offender) and semicolon usage in programming languages are designed around QWERTY, but I still prefer Dvorak.
I switched to Dvorak about 27 years ago. And I switched back to Qwerty about 26.75 years ago. I got to the point where I could comfortably touch-type in Dvorak to about the same speed as I could Qwerty. While Dvorak was a slightly better layout ergonomically, it wasn't good enough to justify the frustration of switching to a computer that I didn't own at work. I've heard that some people can switch easily and touch-type on both layouts, but I couldn't.
The biggest myth is that it's some cosmically different typing experience. Dvorak is a bit more comfortable, rhythmic. That's it. I've used it for 20 years on my personal computer. On my work laptop I use qwerty.
For a keyboard that aims to the title of "Scientific", isn't it weird to offer the "zero" key after the "9" instead of its natural (mathematically speaking) position before the "1"?
I have issues with my right hand due to damage to my brachial plexus. I changed to Dvorak about 22 years ago, and have far less fatigue and pain when typing longer documents.
The article mentions in passing how Dvorak may help people with physical hand issues - well it certainly helps for me. YMMV
Isn't dvorak optimized for alternating fingers but doesn't leverage same hand finger rolls? There are more modern layouts that take rolls into account.
The issue with all the layouts for me is the challenge of buying a device with them. I use Neo2 daily (I changed due to injuries and it has helped me recover and still be able to type) and the only method I enjoyed was getting a blank keyboard on a Framework Laptop (as stickers all over the place is not for me) and I bought an MNT Research Keyboard in a Neo2 layout. Regular usage is key, and a desire/need to change keyboards. I previously tried to switch to Dvorak on one of those Typematrix keyboards and never kept it up as the pain of switching wasn't worth it.
I can still use qwerty due to muscle memory when I need to, I just find myself making dumb mistakes initially. As others have said, typing speed is not a focus due to my ability to only think at a specific pace.
There is actually a really good paper [1] that tracks the origin of the QWERTY keyboard and the specific incremental changes that bring it from mostly alphabetical to QWERTY.
I can type in Dvorak, Qwerty, Zhuyin, and Kana direct input. If you are a slow typist, the problem is not the layout. It is an overreliance on looking at the keys and not taking the time to learn the layout by muscle memory. My keys only have labels for Qwerty but I can touch type in four different formats because I forced myself to use them. That process works. The individual layout does not matter much. How ergonomic the keys are also doesn't matter much. The limit is likely you.
35 comments
[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 76.5 ms ] thread(Been using Dvorak for 25 years now. Doesn't matter what the physical keyboard layout is - currently I'm using a Swiss layout)
This is in the article.
Does anyone know why this issue seems to have been overlooked by August Dvorak & William Dealey, or was it by design? Perhaps it's to make typing the relatively common English digraph 'ou' a comfortable inward roll, but for me, that doesn't outweigh stretching my left index finger all the time reaching for the I.
In this normal scenario, the keyboard layouts do not matter.
"Tech support" when both people are in the front of the same computer happens more between friends or colleagues, when typing speed does not matter, than in professional corporate tech support.
Either customize every app to better match the layout, or live with the afterthought UX.
Oh, and gaming. Better get used to switching to qwerty.
https://andre-wagner.medium.com/colemak-dh-my-journey-to-cha...
The only problem I can find is that the only Mac mod I can find with this layout that is not completely custom has an annoying and minor difference with the Windows and Linux versions of the same type of mod.
Need to type faster? Spend some time practising every day and you will gain more speed within weeks than from just switching layouts. Most people don't as speed often isn't actually that important. I myself am bottlenecked by my brain, not my typing speed. Need less hand movement? Placing symbols, arrow keys etc as secondary function onto the central keys with a programmable keyboard helps with that, changing to dvorak doesn't as much because on a modern keyboard you can reach all letters without hand movement either way.
A big part of why I wanted to make the switch at all is because I was experiencing fatigue in my hands, and I felt that it could be due to my improper typing habits that I developed from mostly learning to type through playing videogames. I wanted to properly type from the home row, and the split columnar keyboard basically enforces that, and Dvorak makes it even easier.
I will say though, I type at about the same speed that I did before I made the switch. Switching layouts almost certainly will not enable you to type faster. Switching layouts encourages you to deliberately practice typing on that layout (I did lots of typing challenges while learning) which will make you faster. The biggest benefit for me has actually been in my back! The split keyboard allows me to rotate my shoulders back a lot more, which makes me feel way better at the end of the day. My hands are less fatigued too, but I don't feel like that was as big of a deal for me.
This is what puzzles me most of the mechanical keyboard market: you can have whatever shit cramped in on a 60%/75% keyboard but the spacebar is still the long slab.
Eg: Shurikey Hanzo 001 65% is especially... bold in this
If you ever have a thought that you want to put into words but need to wait for your fingers, you are being bottlenecked by your typing. Most people think and speak faster than they can type, especially in short bursts; and I'm saying that, as someone who can comfortably type at ~160-180wpm and burst over 200 for a few seconds at a time, I still find myself waiting for my fingers. Holding a conversation over IM is one of the most common places where this bottleneck becomes very noticeable.
Of course over long periods of time we're bottlenecked by our brains. But the things to write come in bursts, and typing speed blocks there. Also transcribing what someone is saying, needs high speed.
My experience completely contradicts your assertions.
> the things to write come in bursts
In short bursts I can reach higher speeds than what I can maintain over a period of time. It's fast enough for me.
> transcribing what someone is saying, needs high speed
That's a very specific use-case and I wouldn't type fast enough for that no matter what layout. At that point I'd probably learn stenography instead.
But I really wish I had a brain which could do things like acquire muscle memory fluency in one keyboard layout without losing it in another.
Though, I'm typing this on a swiping keyboard. It's different enough that a better layout might have been worth it here... I feel like I'm not using that much of my regular qwerty muscle memory, and what's optimal for a swiping keyboard is probably quite different from what's optimal for a typing keyboard.
I also do still use QWERTY for touchscreen devices, because you can't keep your hands on the home row on touch screens, so you lose the benefits of Dvorak (and I actually found the common letter combos being near each other to be way more cumbersome on a touch screen).
Jeeps were invented in 1941. Some origin theories of the name date back as far as WW I (but for recruits, not vehicles). If the author truly used this comparison in 1936 it would be a tremendous citation for the word's origin.
Or perhaps the comparison was made in a later edition of the book. Don't know.
When planning to switch between keyboard layouts, you must be prepared to allocate at least a week in which you will not have to type anything useful at the computer, because initially your typing speed will drop tremendously and you must be able to resist the temptation of reverting to Qwerty or whichever is the layout used previously.
After a week of practice, using only the new key layout for everything, you should be able to use a computer for normal tasks, but still you will be much slower than before. After a month, you should recover your typing speed and begin to realize that typing has become much more comfortable.
It is preferable to not switch the key caps. Even if you have never achieved blind touch typing on Qwerty, it is much easier to achieve it on Dvorak and this can be a benefit of switching the keyboard layouts. At least for me, the assignment of letters to keys has been much easier to memorize for Dvorak than for Qwerty, being more logical. Of course, after enough practice, muscle memory will take over and you will no longer be aware of the key assignments.
1. Not only are the key positions for typing different, but all the keyboard shortcuts I know needed to be re-learned too, and were often in much worse locations (as just one of many problems, Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V are no longer next to each other)
2. I still need to be good with QWERTY because basically everything uses it.
It's a shame, because it does seem more efficient (you can type a lot of words without having to move your fingers from the home row), but I just felt like it was too much work for too little gain.
The article mentions in passing how Dvorak may help people with physical hand issues - well it certainly helps for me. YMMV
I can still use qwerty due to muscle memory when I need to, I just find myself making dumb mistakes initially. As others have said, typing speed is not a focus due to my ability to only think at a specific pace.
1. https://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/server/api/core/bitst...