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Ask HN: Rails vs. Java?

7 points by christiangenco ↗ HN
My go-to framework for the past 5 years has been Rails, but I keep hearing about how - in terms of scalability and speed - you can't beat "Java" (but never any mention of the framework being used, and there are quite a few[1]). I'd like to see if the syntactical hassel is really worth the speed boost.

Is there an equivalent "Rails" for the Java community?

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_web_application_frameworks#Java_2

21 comments

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bartonfink
Play! is meant to be a Rails-like framework for the JVM. I use it at Mapquest (version 1.2), and I like it so far. It contains its own compiler and server, so you don't need to rebuild or redeploy when you're developing like you might in other frameworks.

I've used Play! 2 for a freelance gig, and didn't like it as much. It tries to compile EVERYTHING (HTML templates, your routes file, etc), and for the simple app I was trying to accomplish, that simply wasn't necessary and led to a lot of unnecessary fighting.

I'd recommend giving Play! a try.

cheald
Have you tried JRuby? You get all your Ruby on top of the JVM. By a number of anecdotal accounts, it's quite fast once you get past the JIT warm-up period. You also get the ability to use native Java libraries from your Ruby code, which gives you a really nice transition mechanism if you decide to move towards a pure Java solution.
christiangenco
Oh wow, Rails runs in JRuby. Interesting...
cheald
Yup. The prime caveat is that any gems that use C extensions have to be replaced with Java equivalents (mysql2, for example), but it runs just dandy.

The boot time is atrocious, but you can run your Rails app multi-threaded in a single process, and once the JIT warms up, it's pretty danged speedy.

lmm
If you try to write rails and ruby in Java you will leave angry and disappointed. I would suggest you look for a Java-oriented framework that leverages Java's strengths (I love wicket for the way it uses java's strong typing to enforce properly reusable components, and make upgrades easy); that way even if you return to ruby you'll have learned something.
christiangenco
Hah, fair enough. I'll add Wicket to the list!

For the record, I'm trying to find if there is one dominant framework in Java that everybody's using as there is in Ruby, not necessarily looking for an easy way out ;)

lmm
It's not about looking for an easy way out, you really have to be prepared to embrace not just new tools but a whole new way of thinking. As a former python diehard it took me a long, long time to understand why anyone would choose to use java - but it does have its advantages, and wicket is the best demonstration I've found of what it makes possible.
dotborg2
Apache Cocoon, MVC framework designed for RAD
exabrial
If you want a serious discussion about Java, watch this video from an Engineer at Urban Airship: http://www.infoq.com/presentations/Java-next

The short summary is: Yes, it's worth the syntactical hassel because your tooling takes care of it for you. No, you won't be writing code with Notepad anymore... but would/should you trust a carpenter that insisted nailing every nail in your house with a hammar instead of pneumatic air nailer?

Java is not just a language, it's a tool suite. So Java "sucks" until you learn the tooling. After your learn the tooling, it's fast, simple, productive, and out-scales anything.

christiangenco
An excellent defense of the Java language Mr. exabrial, but any recommendations for Java web frameworks? :D
exabrial
...that's a bit harder to answer. It really depends on YOU, your ability to learn, and your project requirements :)

First, there is trusty JSP and EL. They're blazingly fast. But they aren't a framework, there just libraries.

If you want full-stack Rails, but Java, Play isn't bad. I've used it once, but I felt constrained (much like I do in Rails). I probably needed to give it more time because it does do a lot of things.

The newest version of Tapestry isn't bad. They've had the same lead developer on this project for years, so they've really refined this project over time. You might take a look at the programming model and see what you think, it's can be a little different.

I personally like PrimeFaces/JSF2.0. It's good for large applications since the framework handles all the javascript and Ajax in a very elegant way. If There is also a rabid fanbase (check Twitter). There is tooling involved here, so expect a learning curve.

There's others I haven't used, but my IRL friends have told me they like:

GWT - Building single page, javascript applications ThymeLeaf - The sucessor for JSP that uses Spring Framework ZK JSP - A bunch of cool prebuilt widgets for JSP pages

There are many others, but I've only read about them. With Java, you have tons of choice. There is no "one single killer framework" for Java, so take a look around, and find one that suits your style.

karterk
Play is the closest - but it's nowhere near the maturity of Rails. One good strategy that I see a lot of companies adopt is to write a services layer in Java/Scala and then keep the front-end Rails app part light weight. This way, you get the benefits of a robust, type-checked backend and the flexibility of Rails for the strictly web related stuff like asset pipelines etc.

Of course, the downside is that you need to switch context between two languages. However, this has not bothered me in the past too much.

christiangenco
Oh interesting. That would be quite nice, actually...

Have you found Play to be significantly faster than Rails/worth the context switching?

ciniglio
For this approach, how do you tie the two pieces together (e.g. the Java and Rails parts)? Do you have recommendations for where to start learning about building one system with multiple languages?
scottschulthess
I believe OP is referring to a service-based architecture.

Basically you have a front-end, written in rails, and a back-end, written in java. The two communicate using REST service calls.

Personally I think for a lot of apps this approac has a lot more cons than pros.

- everyone that wants to work on the app needs to know both ruby/rails and java/whatever else

- multiple ways to handle deployment, continous integration, testing (different tools for java vs ruby).

- have to run multiple apps constantly to be able to do end-to-end testing

- harder to create full-stack integration tests

- deployments between the apps are often coupled and thus require more planning

- more up front API design work for the team. much harder to add new features that require API changes than ones that dont.

- Automated end to end integration testing can be much harder to do with an app made up of multiple services than simply living inside on process and being able to have test code access both databases to seed data.

scottschulthess
There are more downsides than "you need to switch the context between two languages"

There are plenty of apps (i'd say the vast majority) where simply does not make sense to cut the codebase in half.

karianna
Several people have mentioned Play. There's also Grails, designed as an familiar clone of Rails. There's also Spring Roo, and JBoss's SEAM. Scala also has Lift and Clojure has Compojure (if Lisp style languages are your thing) So plenty of choice!

I'd highly recommend using Matt Raible's JVM web framework evaluation technique and then following up with a prototype in the top two. Time spent up front deciding on the framework that fits you will be time well spent.

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aquaphile
For reference, if nothing else, look at the open-source derivatives of WebObjects. Per Wikipedia: "Apache Tapestry has a design and philosophy similar to that of WebObjects. Tapestry is frequently combined with Apache Cayenne, a persistence framework inspired by EOF." The WebObject 5.x series was built around Java.