Why does Stripe want to creatively ruin their reputation by venturing into crypto / blockchain?
I don't see anyone in the real world using blockchains at all.
I get AI as it was a real world paradigm shift, but I have never seen anything in this blockchain / crypto space that has reached 100-500 million users let alone 1 billion users, that isn't based on speculation.
The whole payment sector is so fucking idiotic. Why would Stripe need a L1? Partnered with paradigm? The company behind every crypto scam in the past 5 years? Who needs this? Who wants this? I just want to order a book from Amazon; why would there be a blockchain?
> Tempo was started by Stripe and Paradigm, with design input from Anthropic, Coupang, Deutsche Bank, DoorDash, Lead Bank, Mercury, Nubank, OpenAI, Revolut, Shopify, Standard Chartered, Visa, and more.
Does this mean these companies are about to start accepting stablecoins as payment (via Tempo?) some time in the future? Seems out of the ordinary to work with these companies otherwise.
I wonder if this was initiated by all of the steam and itch.io content getting removed due to payment processor rules. If I remember correctly steam used stripe (at least at one point in time) so it might be trying to get back into that market without being limited by the payment processors above them.
Oh wow, the flowchart made by the Government. The government has a registered interest in preventing blockchains for anonymization and decentralization.
I'm trying to figure out how this is decentralized? "A diverse group of entities" will run validator nodes. This sounds like it's just a Solana clone then.
Validators imply that somebody needs to look at the ledger to make sure there are no split views and the log is consistent. Similar to the way cert transparency ledgers are monitored.
I did not see the mention of decentralised BTW, why would it matter here? You trust business entity at the end of the day.
Solana has a higher Nakamoto coefficient (20) than ethereum (6). This means the lowest number of validators that would have to collude to censor the network is 20.
There are some legitimate advantages of ethereum (multiple independent validator software implementations) but decentralisation of the L1 isn’t one of them, even more so when you consider most ethereum transactions happen over centralized L2s.
The folks on Hacker News seem pretty anti-crypto, but I feel like they're missing the point. If we're actually looking for ways to fix the US debt, stablecoins are definitely worth considering
Bitcoin is decentralized because the sun distributes energy somewhat evenly across the globe.
The other 206701340 crypto projects, including this one, are decentralized because ... ?
From the very sparse info on the page, it seems this project does what so many other chains do to make payments faster and cheaper: They log them on a database that is synchronized across only a few computers.
In other words: I can't find any info on that page explaining how they plan to achieve decentralization.
it will never be full available to us unlike bitcoin or ethereum? this is literally like a fast db? like you people here used to say. Finally HN is right and stripe founders joined on calling fast db a "blockchain" with lie.
they will censor you and block you in blockchain level so literally db for few big companies, lol.
Blockchain is such a useful and needed technology for mass adoption, yet so redundant to have in the US because of how much side-eye treatment it gets. Blockchain makes more sense to have here than anywhere else in the world. blockchain does not need to handle high transaction rate the same as visa or MasterCard protocols. There needs to be micro workers that can handle transactions in real-time in Blockchain methodology should be reserved for when recording these transactions. The whole point to have Blockchain is to maintain integrity and security, there is no need for this technology to do small tasks when something else can do that more efficient and successfully, When making this technology efficient, you tend to lose the essence of what that technology is representing in the first place IMO.
So like 11 years ago, Stripe made investments into Stellar, which was supposed to be a payment network that would facilitate transactions into existing currencies. I think that hasn't really gone where it was hoped?
There are lots of crypto skeptics on HN (and we ourselves were disappointed with crypto's payments utility for much of the past decade), so it might be interesting to share what changed our mind over the past couple of years: we started to notice a lot of real-world businesses finding utility in stablecoins. For example, Bridge (a stablecoin orchestration platform that Stripe acquired) is used by SpaceX for managing money in long-tail markets. Another big customer, DolarApp, is providing banking services to customers in Latin America. We're currently adding stablecoin functionality to the Stripe dashboard, and the first user is an Argentinian bike importer that finds transacting with their suppliers to be challenging.
Importantly, none of these businesses are using crypto because it's crypto or for any speculative benefit. They're performing real-world financial activity, and they've found that crypto (via stablecoins) is easier/faster/better than the status quo ante.
Speaking as an argentinian, every time I hear about someone using crypto in that way its to avoid taxes, which seems legally murky/gray (if not directly illegal, but not currently prosecuted) to me.
As an extreme skeptic of crypto in general, the uses for stablecoins seem obvious as long as they’re transparently backed or used only for short term transactions before going back into fiat.
Even just paying a foreign contractor is a pain in the ass sometimes so if a bunch of banks and financial service providers around the world manage to make international transfer easier via the coins, that’s great. Not everyone cares about the inconvenience of KYC or reversibility of transactions sent internationally. These usecases feel more like shortcutting the complexity of transactions across state lines rather than the regulations we’ve learned about the hard way in a hundred years. Obstacles rather than safeguards.
> so it might be interesting to share what changed our mind over the past couple of years
I'm guessing the GENIUS Act had something to do with it too? Now that bank depositors have an incentive to hold bank-issued USD stablecoins given their priority in cases of bankruptcy[0], it seems likely there will be a lot more transactions with them as well
> Importantly, none of these businesses are using crypto because it's crypto or for any speculative benefit. They're performing real-world financial activity, and they've found that crypto (via stablecoins) is easier/faster/better than the status quo ante.
One sign of a technology becoming mature is when it stops needing to be the main character. It starts to make room for what it does, not what it is.
When thefacebook launched, it wasn't a PHP-based social network; it was a social network for college students.
Blockchain has been the main character for a very long time and it's really encouraging to see a product launch like this. Congrats to everyone involved in making this product a reality.
$0.045 per credit transfer
$0.01 per request for payment message
$1.00 per liquidity management transfer
Nice work if you can get it.
BTW, it is crypto. So the promise that none of these businesses are using crypto because it's crypto or for any speculative benefit is a provisional promise at best. Hyrum's Law argues an opposite future.
Can you explain some of the technical goals of your project and the overall model you're thinking about implementing?
You mentioned sub-cent tx fees, 100k tps, and what I presume to be atomic swaps for stablecoins. Are you thinking about something like $0.10 fees or something like $0.0001 fees? At $0.10 fees at 100ktps that end up representing $100/s in tx costs which is about $8.6M/day or $3B/year. Presumably you expect to make more per year on this project in the ideal case, so are you intending to allow the fees or TPS to "float" upward, or to restrict participation in the L1 to only trusted partners, or for the network operators to make money off the interest from holding the stablecoins' currencies in reserve? What if demand exceeds 100k tps?
Since this will be a corporate backed project how do you plan to handle sanctions and government currency controls, eg if Uncle Sam tells you to drop support for Iranian currency, how will that work?
Will there be account/transaction privacy built into the network through ring cryptography or zk proofs? I'm assuming no, but if your answer is yes and Uncle Sam takes issue with that, what is your plan?
It sounds great, but every time I see this argument, I end up going down the rabbit hole of actually studying how stablecoins operate. And every time, I come to the same conclusion: they always rely on trust in an off-chain oracle or custodian. At that point, a shared ledger implemented with traditional databases / protocols would be faster, easier, and more transparent.
Bitcoin (and possibly a few others) is one of the few uses of blockchain that actually makes sense. The blockchain serves the currency, and the currency serves the blockchain. The blockchain exists to provide consensus without needing to trust any off-chain entity, but the blockchain relies on computing infrastructure that has real-world costs. The scarcity of Bitcoin (the currency) and arguably-fictitious reward for participation in mining is the incentive for people in the real world to contribute resources required for the blockchain to function.
Any real-world value given to Bitcoin is secondary and only a result of the fact that (1) mining infrastructure has a cost, and (2) people who understand the system have realized that, unlike fiat, stablecoins, or 1000 other crypto products, Bitcoin has no reliance on trusted, off-chain entities who could manipulate it.
You trust your stablecoin's issuer that they hold enough fiat in reserve to match the coin? You might as well trust your bank, but while you're at it, remind them that they don't have to take days to process a transaction - they could process transactions as fast as (actually faster than) a blockchain. But I imagine most banks would point to regulation as a reason for the delays, and they might be right.
So what are stablecoins really trying to do? Circumvent regulation? Implement something the banks just aren't willing to do themselves?
Bravo! I don't think it can be put more plainly than that.
> So what are stablecoins really trying to do? Circumvent regulation? Implement something the banks just aren't willing to do themselves?
They allow businesses to act like banks without obtaining a commercial banking license. Initially this circumvents regulation, but over time, it allows entities to outsource solutions for those pesky regulations (compliance, audit, etc.) to third parties.
The stripe conference focused more than I would have liked on crypto.
I completely understand that there are markets and customers that can find real utility in it, but I wonder how many businesses will really ever benefit from stablecoins.
We're in higher education, and potentially our international clients could avoid hiccups with regulation, delays, compliance, and more using stablecoins, but it's really a guess. In the meantime, the pricing model of stripe seems to prioritize bigger and bigger clients.
That being said from Stripe's perspective stablecoins an easy bet to make. They win by building payment infrastructure within the traditional payment ecosystem and win by providing an alternative completely outside of it.
"A diverse group of independent entities, including some of Tempo’s design partners, will run validator nodes initially before we transition to a permissionless model."
I think Zuck tried to do this. It was called Libra or Diem or I can't remember what it ended up being. Ultimately trust is what matters. In the end whether it was regulation or governments or anything else that killed it, it's only going to work if people can trust you. They trusted you with fiat payments, maybe they'll trust you with crypto. The thing to note, you'll win over the US centric crowd but it's unclear if it will translate truly across borders to Europe, Russia, China, etc. I'm guessing that doesn't matter but just remember what happened. Make sure to be honest about who's actually going to run the payment rails here.
> We're currently adding stablecoin functionality to the Stripe dashboard, and the first user is an Argentinian bike importer that finds transacting with their suppliers to be challenging.
Using crypto to dodge currency controls?
Of course I agree that currency controls are bad. But, if the use case for crypto keeps being fostering illegal transactions then it doesn’t solve anything a functioning economy needs.
Patrick, congratulations on launching Tempo. If there was a company where it actually made sense to build and use a blockchain it would be Stripe.
The website is a bit painful to read but I thought it provided good general information for potential partners.
As as a dev, my questions are why did your team decide to build a new L1 chain instead of an Ethereum L2 and why did you all stick with the EVM architecture instead of looking at something like the MoveVM?
When your algorithm freezes a legit business's funds, you hold them indefinitely and can invest them for your own profit. The only recourse you offer is mandatory arbitration with an arbitrator Stripe chooses.
If the only two examples that are presented are "SpaceX" and "Latin America" can we not dismiss any further importance on the conflict-of-interest aspect alone? A completely failed experiment, and a company that can create millions simply by tweeting- who buys this?
Patrick, the problems you describe (speed, cost, cross-border friction) already have solutions. SEPA Instant, FedNow, PIX, and providers like Wise move money in seconds, at negligible cost, inside regulated systems. Tempo doesn’t solve payments; it sidesteps oversight.
By shifting flows onto a private stablecoin ledger, Stripe isn’t fixing inefficiency; it’s making it easier to route money in ways regulators and tax authorities can’t easily monitor. That’s not innovation, it’s the oldest trick in the crypto playbook: pretend you’re improving payments, when what you’re really selling is a way around the rules.
Makes sense. Stablecoins in the new regulatory landscape offer significant efficiency gains in the provisioning of lots of innovative financial services (and also typical ones).
Does Stripe have a perspective on the unique systemic risks that stablecoin exposure might end up having in the new regulatory landscape?
That Stripe is involved is probably the best endorsement of Stripe being involved in crypto. Banking in South America is something crypto skeptics have heard for many years now. I was involved in a project that combined crypto with mesh networking. The launch was going to take place in South America. Why? Because university students in Brazil are desperate for a little bit of side hustle money, and incentives could cross borders easily using crypto. This was backed by first tier VC that had a number of crypto investments, including fundamental crypto technologies, alongside other more mundane things. Nobody involved in the project had any intention of creating a bunch of poor student bag holders. Nevertheless, the combination of mesh networking and crypto based incentivization wasn't enough to even turn it into the next Helium (they still around?)
SpaceX using crypto? Are any of their customers seriously going to pay using crypto? Are they gonna pay any of their bills using crypto? I'm not trying to piss in your Cheerios. But making real world use cases not die of uselessness is going to be a challenge.
My biggest reason to be a crypto believer right now is stablecoins, international payments, and agentic AI.
It's inevitable that agentic AI will handle a lot of workload online eventually. We can't expect these agents to work on existing payment rails, what with their fees and slow settlement and international payment hurdles.
AI agents that can pay each other when necessary - even tiny fractional amounts - will be a massive use case.
What about the tax implications of every transaction being a taxable event?
Are you tracking all of this for tax purposes? These transactions all have to be reported to the IRS even for stable coins. This is the biggest thing making crypto payments a non-starter. What's the story here from the end-user's perspective?
I as an individual have no interest in stacking stable coins if when I spend them to businesses, I have to meticulously track each transaction and report it. Whatever you're doing for businesses doesn't seem like it would solve this problem for individuals, if you're even solving it for businesses themselves that is.
i read this move as "we were skeptics like anyone with a brain, but also now trump allowed stable coins to offer pyramid like incentives and only a fool wouldn't jump on that easy money."
Can you expand on "easier" and "faster" in easier/faster/better. I understand "better" in terms of transparency, shared standards for integration, and various other properties.
I can less immediately expand "easier" and "faster".
Easier: on chain VMs are far from simple or easy, recovery from mistakes is far more complex. Some other aspects such as the implicit common standard might reduce some amount of need for "green field agreement", and the implicit openness of the protocols avoid some of the traps of "here's a rest api, go", but is this the focus? When you look at a wide variety of the big ticket items in everything that needs doing, is the total set easier? Are there surprises there?
Faster: similar to above, this claim is surprising. There's a lot of by-design overhead to a cryptographic ledger system. Lots of things that can be done to make it wider, to reduce latency and increase throughput, but at a fundamental level core operations such as transaction creation require a lot more processing going into a ledger than into a traditional database, even one at scale. Maybe faster here isn't about system faster, but time to product delivery? If so is that common standards? Are there surprises here too, what were they?
Edit: I see elsewhere in the thread you provide some answers in a slightly different framing. A potentially unfair paraphrase and summary seems to be that this enabled integrations to bypass expensive incumbents and comparatively poor traditional infrastructure. If that's a reasonable approximation my question is this: what if you dropped good sized chunks of the blockchain part that is the main system bottleneck, but kept the rest of the properties (shared micro computation model, shared transaction model, common API standard and protocol, eradication of foot dragging incumbents etc).?
We're starting to seek access to our services using the x402 protocol. It's practical for micro-payments and can facilitate subscriptions and most importantly, completely under the control of the end user. See https://x402.org
> crypto (via stablecoins) is easier/faster/better than the status quo ante.
It must be ignorance on my part or perhaps I’m just lucky with residency and clients, but I get paid through services like Wise frequently. Taxes are pretty reasonable and I receive the money instantly on my bank account from US, Europe or Latin America. I don’t really know much better it needs to get.
I can never understand what problem stablecoins are trying to solve.
I'm a crypto disappoin-ic. Seems like humans simply cannot un-shackle themselves from central control no matter how low the bar. The second crypto got steam the scammers, criminals and con artists were on it so fast fly's would be embarrassed by their shameless dive into feces.
Long term I'm still more optimistic on crypto than AI. I think part of the problem with crypto is it needs to be around longer than some government money to prove to people it has staying power. Only then will financial people start doing things like recommend a small crypto stash for your retirement just in case. The average person is not going to make the necessary critical mass move into crypto without some sort permission saying its ok and not going to risk all their money or jail time.
This is exactly how you bootstrap payment rails to compete with Visa/MC. Merchants would do anything to reduce the 2-3% they’re bleeding to the card schemes.
Everyone focuses on consumer adoption, but merchants push payment methods customers don’t love all the time - ACH transfers, store cards, cash discounts. If stablecoins can cut interchange from 2-3% to near zero, merchants will drive adoption through discounts and incentives.
Gas stations where card fees destroy margins, high-volume retailers - get a few major players offering meaningful stablecoin discounts and suddenly consumers have a reason to figure out the wallets.
> Private blockchains are completely uninteresting. (By this, I mean systems that use the blockchain data structure but don’t have the above three elements.) In general, they have some external limitation on who can interact with the blockchain and its features. These are not anything new; they’re distributed append-only data structures with a list of individuals authorized to add to it. Consensus protocols have been studied in distributed systems for more than 60 years. Append-only data structures have been similarly well covered. They’re blockchains in name only, and—as far as I can tell—the only reason to operate one is to ride on the blockchain hype.
In particular, using the term "blockchain"/"crypto" to talk about something more centralized / permissioned than e.g. Bitcoin is missing the point: these systems already existed before.
So what do you mean by "crypto" exactly? Distributed systems? I don't think you'll find many distributed systems skeptics on HN.
> Importantly, none of these businesses are using crypto because it's crypto or for any speculative benefit. They're performing real-world financial activity, and they've found that crypto (via stablecoins) is easier/faster/better than the status quo ante.
I still don’t quite understand the point of using crypto then - there’s no advantage in it theoretically being decentalizable since practically it is not. It might as well be an implementation detail.
Or are there decentral aspects to how it works? Does it ease auditing? Is it the improved ease of financial/regulatory engineering?
To add some context: our clients in LatAm use DolarApp to spend internationally with a card at the best rates, send and receive cross-border transfers (not just remittances, but also payroll), and to keep their savings pegged to the dollar. Stablecoins let us deliver a much better user experience and significantly lower fees — in some countries, up to 10x better than incumbents.
That said, most of our users don’t care about the underlying infrastructure. They care about the benefits. It’s similar to how someone using a bank card at an ATM doesn’t know (or care) that the system might be running on COBOL.
We see it as our job as product people to absorb that complexity so our users get the benefits without having to deal with the complex mechanics behind them. That’s what we believe is helping unlock a platform shift.
Why did this need blockchain? Why could you not use a central private e-money system w/ a good API? It sounds like you think they don't really care about the implementation?
"10. In and around the spring of 2023, Mr. Ibrahim became uncomfortable with certain practices and activities in which the Bank began to become involved. These included practices that, in Mr. Ibrahims opinion, jeopardized the Banks compliance with anti-money laundering laws, federal safety and soundness requirements for depository institutions, and compliance with specific OCC regulations and requirements that were particularly imperative due to the fact that the Bank was already considered a Troubled Institution
14. Mr. Ibrahim further objected to Axioms initiation of new business programs, without first obtaining non-objection letters from the OCC and without review by the Banks internal New Product Risk Committee, as required by written policies. One such project, DolarApp, was of particular concern to Mr. Ibrahim as it entailed cross-border movement of funds, which triggered significant concerns as to whether the Banks BSA/AML controls are sufficient, among other things.
15. But when Ibrahim raised these concerns with the CEO, Ross Breunig, he told Ibrahim to the effect that he did not want to hear it and shut down the conversation.
18. Almost immediately after Mr. Ibrahim objected to these practices, Axiom and Mr. Breunig began a pattern of retaliation. After the April 2023 leadership meeting where Mr. Ibrahim raised concerns relating to CSI and the DolarApp, Mr. Breunig began canceling Executive Board of Director meetings that Mr. Ibrahim attended.
19. Following a leadership meeting in May 2023, where again Mr. Ibrahim raised concerns about CSI, DolarApp and the overdraft positions, Mr. Ibrahim began receiving email cancellations to multiple committees and Board meetings.
20. Upon inquiry, Mr. Ibrahim learned the meetings were not being canceled, but rather he was being uninvited without explanation. Mr. Breunigs hostility with Mr. Ibrahim also became noticeably apparent during this time."
Of course Stripe, Inc. is neither a Troubled Bank nor an untroubled one
Anyway, it sounds like DolarApp could be useful for evading anti-money laundering and bank secrecy laws
"Importantly, none of these businesses are using crypto because it's crypto or for any speculative benefit."
That's only one of the many reasons people might be skeptical of crypto. See above
"They're performing real-world financial activity, and they've found that crypto (via stablecoins) is easier/faster/better than the status quo ante."
How much of this "real world financial activity" is not criminally culpable
Unironically excited to learn: Why is this a blockchain? Why could stripe not just do this (maybe better) without the blockchain bit?
I am actually optimistic that, finally, there could be a convincing answer, because stripe does not strike me as the type of company that would do this without a very good reason. (I am slightly less optimistic, because the page itself does not offer an answer to this question, and instead argues for tempo against other blockchains. But only slightly.)
This is off-topic to their grand blockchain adventures, but I need to mention it:
I would love for stripe to start paying appropriate VAT on transactions between their merchants and EU citizens, I've been on their ass about it for nearly a year now. I've reported multiple merchants to them which simply refused to provide an VAT invoice for any transactions. Legally, merchants outside EU are required to pay VAT on their B2C transactions if their EU transaction volume goes above a certain limit, and provide VAT invoice for B2B transactions (but with 0% VAT because it is B2B).
But unfortunately Stripe doesn't seem to have the technology to do a SUM(*) in their database, or check if an email address ends in '.de' or '.it' when they take the payment. So they simply do not give a damn if their merchants provide an invoice with the transaction or not.
Oftentimes it was the problem to actually get an invoice document which has company name, company registration number, street address, city, and tax ID. Extremely basic information which is required on all EU invoices. Many times I have submitted invoices from Stripe merchants to my tax accountant and my tax accountant told me that those are not proper invoices and to please reach out to the merchant to get EU-legal invoices.
Stripe has the technological capabilities to implement proper compliance checks, but they choose to let their merchants send you rubbish self-made PDF invoices with a big red "paid" stamp without any information or "official" Stripe invoices with total fantasy names and fantasy company information. You never know if your merchant is sitting in an embargoed country or is just some schmuck from San Francisco trying to hide their ties to a website.
If other HN users from the EU have been fighting Stripe to get EU-compliant VAT invoices for their B2B or B2C purchases, please feel free to reach out. I've been doing a big stink about this and to me it feels like a deliberate pattern of enabling their merchants to ignore EU VAT obligations.
It's really sad that my extremely positive impression of Stripe has been deeply tainted by this kind of experience across various purchases and subscriptions with Stripe merchants. I had to spend so much time pleading with them to provide proper invoices.
I guess domains might not mean as much as they used to, but xyz? To me that's something you get for experiments and one-offs, not something you use for a serious enterprise you want to get people onboard for.
I honestly thought this was fake and not from stripe the first time I saw it. (I kinda still do with that domain.)
This is a pretty big deal. Stripe is already processing billions of transactions. Additionally Stripe already has the relationship with merchants that other L1's lack along with the payment network expertise.
If Stripe’s closed-loop system scales, banks and card networks could lose significant transaction volume, fees and even merchant relationships. Merchants and customers win with lower transaction fees. This marks a very credible and large-scale effort yet to challenge the Visa and Mastercard duopoly.
Obviously not perfect and other questionable projects have stained blockchains reputation but it is a net win, no?
218 comments
[ 2.9 ms ] story [ 117 ms ] threadWhy does Stripe want to creatively ruin their reputation by venturing into crypto / blockchain?
I don't see anyone in the real world using blockchains at all.
I get AI as it was a real world paradigm shift, but I have never seen anything in this blockchain / crypto space that has reached 100-500 million users let alone 1 billion users, that isn't based on speculation.
Does this mean these companies are about to start accepting stablecoins as payment (via Tempo?) some time in the future? Seems out of the ordinary to work with these companies otherwise.
* https://www.nist.gov/blockchain
Specifically the yes/no flowchart on whether "you may have a useful blockchain use case" (Figure 6 - DHS Science & Technology Directorate Flowchart):
* https://csrc.nist.gov/CSRC/media/Projects/enhanced-distribut...
Who would of thought?
I did not see the mention of decentralised BTW, why would it matter here? You trust business entity at the end of the day.
There are some legitimate advantages of ethereum (multiple independent validator software implementations) but decentralisation of the L1 isn’t one of them, even more so when you consider most ethereum transactions happen over centralized L2s.
https://coinmarketcap.com/charts/number-of-cryptocurrencies-...
Bitcoin is decentralized because the sun distributes energy somewhat evenly across the globe.
The other 206701340 crypto projects, including this one, are decentralized because ... ?
From the very sparse info on the page, it seems this project does what so many other chains do to make payments faster and cheaper: They log them on a database that is synchronized across only a few computers.
In other words: I can't find any info on that page explaining how they plan to achieve decentralization.
they will censor you and block you in blockchain level so literally db for few big companies, lol.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/technology/stripe-takes-...
Importantly, none of these businesses are using crypto because it's crypto or for any speculative benefit. They're performing real-world financial activity, and they've found that crypto (via stablecoins) is easier/faster/better than the status quo ante.
Even just paying a foreign contractor is a pain in the ass sometimes so if a bunch of banks and financial service providers around the world manage to make international transfer easier via the coins, that’s great. Not everyone cares about the inconvenience of KYC or reversibility of transactions sent internationally. These usecases feel more like shortcutting the complexity of transactions across state lines rather than the regulations we’ve learned about the hard way in a hundred years. Obstacles rather than safeguards.
A little bit of trouble coming up with enough examples of anyone who wants or needs this, I think?
I'm guessing the GENIUS Act had something to do with it too? Now that bank depositors have an incentive to hold bank-issued USD stablecoins given their priority in cases of bankruptcy[0], it seems likely there will be a lot more transactions with them as well
0. https://www.congress.gov/bill/119th-congress/senate-bill/158...
One sign of a technology becoming mature is when it stops needing to be the main character. It starts to make room for what it does, not what it is.
When thefacebook launched, it wasn't a PHP-based social network; it was a social network for college students.
Blockchain has been the main character for a very long time and it's really encouraging to see a product launch like this. Congrats to everyone involved in making this product a reality.
BTW, it is crypto. So the promise that none of these businesses are using crypto because it's crypto or for any speculative benefit is a provisional promise at best. Hyrum's Law argues an opposite future.
Do they use it to arbitrate NFTs? (need more jargon)
Because SpaceX is definitely something that screams "finance" to me.
People can build their own smart contracts and speculate.
You mentioned sub-cent tx fees, 100k tps, and what I presume to be atomic swaps for stablecoins. Are you thinking about something like $0.10 fees or something like $0.0001 fees? At $0.10 fees at 100ktps that end up representing $100/s in tx costs which is about $8.6M/day or $3B/year. Presumably you expect to make more per year on this project in the ideal case, so are you intending to allow the fees or TPS to "float" upward, or to restrict participation in the L1 to only trusted partners, or for the network operators to make money off the interest from holding the stablecoins' currencies in reserve? What if demand exceeds 100k tps?
Since this will be a corporate backed project how do you plan to handle sanctions and government currency controls, eg if Uncle Sam tells you to drop support for Iranian currency, how will that work?
Will there be account/transaction privacy built into the network through ring cryptography or zk proofs? I'm assuming no, but if your answer is yes and Uncle Sam takes issue with that, what is your plan?
Bitcoin (and possibly a few others) is one of the few uses of blockchain that actually makes sense. The blockchain serves the currency, and the currency serves the blockchain. The blockchain exists to provide consensus without needing to trust any off-chain entity, but the blockchain relies on computing infrastructure that has real-world costs. The scarcity of Bitcoin (the currency) and arguably-fictitious reward for participation in mining is the incentive for people in the real world to contribute resources required for the blockchain to function.
Any real-world value given to Bitcoin is secondary and only a result of the fact that (1) mining infrastructure has a cost, and (2) people who understand the system have realized that, unlike fiat, stablecoins, or 1000 other crypto products, Bitcoin has no reliance on trusted, off-chain entities who could manipulate it.
You trust your stablecoin's issuer that they hold enough fiat in reserve to match the coin? You might as well trust your bank, but while you're at it, remind them that they don't have to take days to process a transaction - they could process transactions as fast as (actually faster than) a blockchain. But I imagine most banks would point to regulation as a reason for the delays, and they might be right.
So what are stablecoins really trying to do? Circumvent regulation? Implement something the banks just aren't willing to do themselves?
> So what are stablecoins really trying to do? Circumvent regulation? Implement something the banks just aren't willing to do themselves?
They allow businesses to act like banks without obtaining a commercial banking license. Initially this circumvents regulation, but over time, it allows entities to outsource solutions for those pesky regulations (compliance, audit, etc.) to third parties.
I completely understand that there are markets and customers that can find real utility in it, but I wonder how many businesses will really ever benefit from stablecoins.
We're in higher education, and potentially our international clients could avoid hiccups with regulation, delays, compliance, and more using stablecoins, but it's really a guess. In the meantime, the pricing model of stripe seems to prioritize bigger and bigger clients.
That being said from Stripe's perspective stablecoins an easy bet to make. They win by building payment infrastructure within the traditional payment ecosystem and win by providing an alternative completely outside of it.
"A diverse group of independent entities, including some of Tempo’s design partners, will run validator nodes initially before we transition to a permissionless model."
I think Zuck tried to do this. It was called Libra or Diem or I can't remember what it ended up being. Ultimately trust is what matters. In the end whether it was regulation or governments or anything else that killed it, it's only going to work if people can trust you. They trusted you with fiat payments, maybe they'll trust you with crypto. The thing to note, you'll win over the US centric crowd but it's unclear if it will translate truly across borders to Europe, Russia, China, etc. I'm guessing that doesn't matter but just remember what happened. Make sure to be honest about who's actually going to run the payment rails here.
Using crypto to dodge currency controls?
Of course I agree that currency controls are bad. But, if the use case for crypto keeps being fostering illegal transactions then it doesn’t solve anything a functioning economy needs.
The website is a bit painful to read but I thought it provided good general information for potential partners.
As as a dev, my questions are why did your team decide to build a new L1 chain instead of an Ethereum L2 and why did you all stick with the EVM architecture instead of looking at something like the MoveVM?
When your algorithm freezes a legit business's funds, you hold them indefinitely and can invest them for your own profit. The only recourse you offer is mandatory arbitration with an arbitrator Stripe chooses.
How is that a fair system?
Or can you explain how these bike importers are being hampered in fiat not by laws, but by technology?
Every time I look at this, the "clever trick" is actually law evasion / law avoidance, to borrow a tax term.
It's about as "clever" as lying to the IRS to save money on taxes. That was never a loophole.
By shifting flows onto a private stablecoin ledger, Stripe isn’t fixing inefficiency; it’s making it easier to route money in ways regulators and tax authorities can’t easily monitor. That’s not innovation, it’s the oldest trick in the crypto playbook: pretend you’re improving payments, when what you’re really selling is a way around the rules.
Does Stripe have a perspective on the unique systemic risks that stablecoin exposure might end up having in the new regulatory landscape?
SpaceX using crypto? Are any of their customers seriously going to pay using crypto? Are they gonna pay any of their bills using crypto? I'm not trying to piss in your Cheerios. But making real world use cases not die of uselessness is going to be a challenge.
I'm not surprised, capital controls come and go there, and when they come, they stay for several years.
You could achieve the same things with a proof-of-authority ledger instead of a "stable" coin
It's inevitable that agentic AI will handle a lot of workload online eventually. We can't expect these agents to work on existing payment rails, what with their fees and slow settlement and international payment hurdles.
AI agents that can pay each other when necessary - even tiny fractional amounts - will be a massive use case.
Are you tracking all of this for tax purposes? These transactions all have to be reported to the IRS even for stable coins. This is the biggest thing making crypto payments a non-starter. What's the story here from the end-user's perspective?
I as an individual have no interest in stacking stable coins if when I spend them to businesses, I have to meticulously track each transaction and report it. Whatever you're doing for businesses doesn't seem like it would solve this problem for individuals, if you're even solving it for businesses themselves that is.
https://www.wired.com/story/genius-act-loophole-stablecoins-...
I can less immediately expand "easier" and "faster".
Easier: on chain VMs are far from simple or easy, recovery from mistakes is far more complex. Some other aspects such as the implicit common standard might reduce some amount of need for "green field agreement", and the implicit openness of the protocols avoid some of the traps of "here's a rest api, go", but is this the focus? When you look at a wide variety of the big ticket items in everything that needs doing, is the total set easier? Are there surprises there?
Faster: similar to above, this claim is surprising. There's a lot of by-design overhead to a cryptographic ledger system. Lots of things that can be done to make it wider, to reduce latency and increase throughput, but at a fundamental level core operations such as transaction creation require a lot more processing going into a ledger than into a traditional database, even one at scale. Maybe faster here isn't about system faster, but time to product delivery? If so is that common standards? Are there surprises here too, what were they?
Edit: I see elsewhere in the thread you provide some answers in a slightly different framing. A potentially unfair paraphrase and summary seems to be that this enabled integrations to bypass expensive incumbents and comparatively poor traditional infrastructure. If that's a reasonable approximation my question is this: what if you dropped good sized chunks of the blockchain part that is the main system bottleneck, but kept the rest of the properties (shared micro computation model, shared transaction model, common API standard and protocol, eradication of foot dragging incumbents etc).?
So I get it I guess!
Edit: I’m only joking a little bit
It must be ignorance on my part or perhaps I’m just lucky with residency and clients, but I get paid through services like Wise frequently. Taxes are pretty reasonable and I receive the money instantly on my bank account from US, Europe or Latin America. I don’t really know much better it needs to get.
I can never understand what problem stablecoins are trying to solve.
Did you look at a non crypto/stablecoin solution to perhaps find something even better for legitimate businesses (and perhaps worse for crooks)?
Long term I'm still more optimistic on crypto than AI. I think part of the problem with crypto is it needs to be around longer than some government money to prove to people it has staying power. Only then will financial people start doing things like recommend a small crypto stash for your retirement just in case. The average person is not going to make the necessary critical mass move into crypto without some sort permission saying its ok and not going to risk all their money or jail time.
> Private blockchains are completely uninteresting. (By this, I mean systems that use the blockchain data structure but don’t have the above three elements.) In general, they have some external limitation on who can interact with the blockchain and its features. These are not anything new; they’re distributed append-only data structures with a list of individuals authorized to add to it. Consensus protocols have been studied in distributed systems for more than 60 years. Append-only data structures have been similarly well covered. They’re blockchains in name only, and—as far as I can tell—the only reason to operate one is to ride on the blockchain hype.
In particular, using the term "blockchain"/"crypto" to talk about something more centralized / permissioned than e.g. Bitcoin is missing the point: these systems already existed before.
So what do you mean by "crypto" exactly? Distributed systems? I don't think you'll find many distributed systems skeptics on HN.
I genuinely do not understand this example. What is spacex actually doing? And why do they even have money in “long tail markets” at all?
One can look at Stripe's list of investors...
I still don’t quite understand the point of using crypto then - there’s no advantage in it theoretically being decentalizable since practically it is not. It might as well be an implementation detail.
Or are there decentral aspects to how it works? Does it ease auditing? Is it the improved ease of financial/regulatory engineering?
To add some context: our clients in LatAm use DolarApp to spend internationally with a card at the best rates, send and receive cross-border transfers (not just remittances, but also payroll), and to keep their savings pegged to the dollar. Stablecoins let us deliver a much better user experience and significantly lower fees — in some countries, up to 10x better than incumbents.
That said, most of our users don’t care about the underlying infrastructure. They care about the benefits. It’s similar to how someone using a bank card at an ATM doesn’t know (or care) that the system might be running on COBOL.
We see it as our job as product people to absorb that complexity so our users get the benefits without having to deal with the complex mechanics behind them. That’s what we believe is helping unlock a platform shift.
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/jasonmikula_fintech-partner-a...
When this bank employee expressed skepticism of "DolarApp" he was faced retaliation:
https://ia800508.us.archive.org/28/items/gov.uscourts.flmd.4...
"10. In and around the spring of 2023, Mr. Ibrahim became uncomfortable with certain practices and activities in which the Bank began to become involved. These included practices that, in Mr. Ibrahims opinion, jeopardized the Banks compliance with anti-money laundering laws, federal safety and soundness requirements for depository institutions, and compliance with specific OCC regulations and requirements that were particularly imperative due to the fact that the Bank was already considered a Troubled Institution
14. Mr. Ibrahim further objected to Axioms initiation of new business programs, without first obtaining non-objection letters from the OCC and without review by the Banks internal New Product Risk Committee, as required by written policies. One such project, DolarApp, was of particular concern to Mr. Ibrahim as it entailed cross-border movement of funds, which triggered significant concerns as to whether the Banks BSA/AML controls are sufficient, among other things.
15. But when Ibrahim raised these concerns with the CEO, Ross Breunig, he told Ibrahim to the effect that he did not want to hear it and shut down the conversation.
18. Almost immediately after Mr. Ibrahim objected to these practices, Axiom and Mr. Breunig began a pattern of retaliation. After the April 2023 leadership meeting where Mr. Ibrahim raised concerns relating to CSI and the DolarApp, Mr. Breunig began canceling Executive Board of Director meetings that Mr. Ibrahim attended.
19. Following a leadership meeting in May 2023, where again Mr. Ibrahim raised concerns about CSI, DolarApp and the overdraft positions, Mr. Ibrahim began receiving email cancellations to multiple committees and Board meetings.
20. Upon inquiry, Mr. Ibrahim learned the meetings were not being canceled, but rather he was being uninvited without explanation. Mr. Breunigs hostility with Mr. Ibrahim also became noticeably apparent during this time."
Of course Stripe, Inc. is neither a Troubled Bank nor an untroubled one
Anyway, it sounds like DolarApp could be useful for evading anti-money laundering and bank secrecy laws
"Importantly, none of these businesses are using crypto because it's crypto or for any speculative benefit."
That's only one of the many reasons people might be skeptical of crypto. See above
"They're performing real-world financial activity, and they've found that crypto (via stablecoins) is easier/faster/better than the status quo ante."
How much of this "real world financial activity" is not criminally culpable
100% no doubt
Otherwise why not just use normal digital payments? I fail to see why a blockchain is needed to log the transactions.
I’ve heard stable coins are beneficial for the owners of the coin because it’s basically an interest free loan to the token owner.
I am actually optimistic that, finally, there could be a convincing answer, because stripe does not strike me as the type of company that would do this without a very good reason. (I am slightly less optimistic, because the page itself does not offer an answer to this question, and instead argues for tempo against other blockchains. But only slightly.)
I would love for stripe to start paying appropriate VAT on transactions between their merchants and EU citizens, I've been on their ass about it for nearly a year now. I've reported multiple merchants to them which simply refused to provide an VAT invoice for any transactions. Legally, merchants outside EU are required to pay VAT on their B2C transactions if their EU transaction volume goes above a certain limit, and provide VAT invoice for B2B transactions (but with 0% VAT because it is B2B).
But unfortunately Stripe doesn't seem to have the technology to do a SUM(*) in their database, or check if an email address ends in '.de' or '.it' when they take the payment. So they simply do not give a damn if their merchants provide an invoice with the transaction or not.
Oftentimes it was the problem to actually get an invoice document which has company name, company registration number, street address, city, and tax ID. Extremely basic information which is required on all EU invoices. Many times I have submitted invoices from Stripe merchants to my tax accountant and my tax accountant told me that those are not proper invoices and to please reach out to the merchant to get EU-legal invoices.
Stripe has the technological capabilities to implement proper compliance checks, but they choose to let their merchants send you rubbish self-made PDF invoices with a big red "paid" stamp without any information or "official" Stripe invoices with total fantasy names and fantasy company information. You never know if your merchant is sitting in an embargoed country or is just some schmuck from San Francisco trying to hide their ties to a website.
If other HN users from the EU have been fighting Stripe to get EU-compliant VAT invoices for their B2B or B2C purchases, please feel free to reach out. I've been doing a big stink about this and to me it feels like a deliberate pattern of enabling their merchants to ignore EU VAT obligations.
It's really sad that my extremely positive impression of Stripe has been deeply tainted by this kind of experience across various purchases and subscriptions with Stripe merchants. I had to spend so much time pleading with them to provide proper invoices.
I honestly thought this was fake and not from stripe the first time I saw it. (I kinda still do with that domain.)
If Stripe’s closed-loop system scales, banks and card networks could lose significant transaction volume, fees and even merchant relationships. Merchants and customers win with lower transaction fees. This marks a very credible and large-scale effort yet to challenge the Visa and Mastercard duopoly.
Obviously not perfect and other questionable projects have stained blockchains reputation but it is a net win, no?
Blockchain is used as an umbrella term to lump useless systems like this and ripple into the same category as actual decrentralized cryptocurrencies.