I heard it in a movie - What would you do if you had 1 million dollars....not with the money, but with your time? Most people have a good, solid answer - it varies by person, but most people have something they'd rather be doing.
I'm still trying to figure out what I'd be doing with my time instead of working for a living. I think it would be working.
I'm still trying to figure out what I'd be doing with my time instead of working for a living. I think it would be working.
I'm in about that boat. Paycheck aside, I feel like contributing in a meaningful way through work has far more lasting value than indulging in hedonism or art.
Armstrong would have had a heck of a time getting to the moon, if it were not for those who worked to put him there.
Art is one of the areas of human endeavour that has the greatest amount of 'lasting value' - you only need to look at the numerous existing works that are around, and how much pleasure people derive from them, to see that.
Even if you are only an average artist yourself, and your own works will not be appreciated by many in the future, for many people they would like nothing more than being able to spend time creating art. Besides, software is half science, half art...
Perhaps you didn't intend it, but putting art in the same boat as hedonism is giving the latter way, way more credit than is appropriate. :)
Shuttleworth continues to fund Canonical (although I think they may be closer to breaking even). Whatever you think of Ubuntu, it has certainly made a difference.
Several years ago our household income was $xx. Along came some opportunities and now it's $xx+y. My wife and I live the same lifestyle and save the rest. Why? It's fun to see the doors that open as your savings grow. Even if you never open those doors, having access to the keys is its own reward. Someday we'll open one of those doors. The anticipation and journey will surely be as joyful as the reveal behind the door.
I disagree. I've watched three members of my family save and save and ultimately die of cancer with a pile of cash which consumed their life obtaining. I'd rather live for the moment.
Obtaining money takes far too much time when you could be having fun (fun rarely involves much expenditure).
As with all things it is a balance, having built up wealth can let you take advantage of more opportunities and be more flexible than if you are living paycheck to paycheck (even if that paycheck is sizable)
I guess it depends on the magnitude of saving we're talking about. I have also seen people who work 12+ hours per day making a ton of money, and only give themselves tiny budgets for pursuing things they enjoy - one guy worked a full-time job and did 6+ hours of consulting every day, made well over $100k and lived in a relatively inexpensive area, but still only gave himself something like $50/month for eating out, books, entertainment, and the like. That is their call, of course, but I don't think I'd be very happy doing that.
On the other hand, though, there is an enormous amount of freedom and peace-of-mind that comes from having a healthy pile of cash and relatively liquid investments. If I look back at the 10 years or so since I started working full-time, my increase in income has been nice, but the increase in savings has improved my life substantially more.
I agree there's no point to being the richest person in the graveyard, but I'd prefer dying with a little excess money to being in a position where I was always a few paychecks away from serious financial trouble. Balance is key, I guess.
You're right, fun is cheap. So why spend my fortune when I could retire early instead? To live each day like its your last is to fear living. I will live my life assuming I live to a ripe old age, and will never fear to live another day. The freedom this has brought me and the peace of mind is something no amount of hedonism could replace.
To assume a healthy savings means I must be a miser is unwarranted. Most who are thin are not anorexic.
I'm afraid that by saying "My priorities are God, Family, Health" that you are just punting. You fall back on that when in every measurable way your life isn't what you hoped it would be so as a coping mechanism you redefine your values to measureless standards.
You "value" your family. What does that mean? You spent one hour pushing your kid on a swing because you realized you don't have the confidence, discipline, or perseverance to do the things you really want to be doing.
You "value" your family because you hate yourself, but you don't have the confidence to admit it.
IOW, you live your life however you want to and when you feel like it you just move the goalposts to make sure you look successful. Depressed people are the ones with the integrity not to move the goalposts.
I'm not talking about clinical depression. But let's say the general, "I didn't get the promotion" style of depression.
For me, you can view that problem two ways, "I'm going to work harder and prove my value to the company" or the move the goalposts approach, "I really didn't want that promotion anyway, I'll spend more time with my kids! No one will judge me as a failure if I do that."
Shifting priorities can be rational if you honestly realize your tastes and interests have changed over time, but most often it seems shifting priorties are just a manifestation of weakness - a decision to flee rather than fight.
>For me, you can view that problem two ways, "I'm going to work harder and prove my value to the company" or the move the goalposts approach, "I really didn't want that promotion anyway, I'll spend more time with my kids! No one will judge me as a failure if I do that."
The idiocy of the comment is that "not getting that promotion" is not a failure anyway.
Hang out around enough old people, and you'll realize the overwhelming majority of them would have preferred more time with their kids to that promotion.
Retrospectively. For some what they would have liked to do more of looking back and what they wanted to do at the time may be different. As we live in the present, the question really is what we would like to be doing now, not what we would liked to have done looking back.
> You "value" your family. What does that mean? You spent one hour pushing your kid on a swing because you realized you don't have the confidence, discipline, or perseverance to do the things you really want to be doing.
What if what you really want to be doing is being with and enjoying your family?
I think the comments here on your reaction are interesting; most people with careers (especially on HN) are working 24/7 to be able to spend, for instance, time with their family in the future (which, if you are an entrepreneur, statistically, is not likely to happen soon). And yet the responses here are saying that if you think family is important, you would let other things drop. There definitely are people who value family over all, and I know quite a few of them (my sister being one), but she is not on HN on a sunday. Neither does she value the amassing of money as something important in life. Reading most of HN shows that most people here do, no matter what (outside of killing others (at least openly; killing in China in factories is fine until the press finds out); killing yourself is acceptable risk).
So i'm not sure how everyone is so '4 hour workweek' in their comments; you can be with your family and you don't need millions to do that. If you really want that, there is no reason you are not doing it right now. I think if you have passion for something and you are postponing that for 'something something pot of gold', you don't really consider it that valuable.
Something for instance you quite often read in forums and such; 'I want to be with my family most, but I live in a city so I have this and that $$$$ costs per month minimum which is preventing me, in this economic climate to be with my family.' That's of course crap; move. There are tons of places in the world you can live of $500-600 / month and be happy with your family. But no there are a million excuses why 'thats not possible'. So you don't really want to be with your family that much, then, you have other goals topping that which you are trying to hide/disguise for yourself because you sound like a dick admitting that?
You can exchange 'family' with any passion. I have a friend who's biggest dream in life is to be a musician. But he comes up with 1000s of reasons why it cannot happen now. For the last 15 years mind you...
Aren't people who say they "don't" value family just shifting the goal posts to an easy tangible goal?
Given you are the product of a family (and, given your presence on HN, you were born into privilege). Have some respect for people who want to do well at raising a family.
Depressed people have different brain chemistry than non-depressed people. It's unrelated to integrity, or goals. (Except for where the two effect brain chemistry, which is very little). Science FTW!
I love this. Its very bleak but it's true. In reading all these comments I really like how they are at very opposite ends of the spectrum and all true all at once.
The answer to this question isn't going to come from the top down, I think it has to come from the bottom up. So, its not really a helpful question, except maybe interesting to reflect upon post hoc?
Let's try to rationalize the question. Raising a family is slowly losing some appeal due to overpopulation, possibilities of dramatic life extension, and the mere fact that it's something that everyone can do (and does). Also, history books never mention someone as a good parent. In the end it's an investment decision: what are you willing to invest your most precious resource (your time) on? It depends on what kind of rewards are regarded as better.
I think it is unhealthy to think that only rare achievements are worthwhile. That leads to misery and warfare. I don't want to live in a world where 99% are losers, even if I am in the 1%.
> John Clifton "Jack" Bogle (born May 8, 1929) is the founder and retired CEO of The Vanguard Group. He is known for his 1999 book Common Sense on Mutual Funds: New Imperatives for the Intelligent Investor, which became a bestseller and is considered a classic.
I think most of us get to a point where we finally figure out we're mortal, and each day is one less we have to live.
As a parent with two small children, I'm constantly faced with two paths: I could work really hard, the result being eventually enough money that would bring me more "happiness" (travel the world with my wife and kids, for example); or I could extract every memory possible while my kids are this age.
When I think about being on my deathbed and looking back on my life, what will I be thinking? Will I have wished I worked longer hours? Or will I have wanted more memories of my kids laughing with me?
(This is largely why I'm building slow growth, sustainable lifestyle businesses over moving everyone to SF and working 100 hours a week at some startup.)
I also very much like this quote. This is Reata Strickland, as far as I can tell. I remember seeing it on /r/trees as a Dalai Lama quote, but wikiquote [1] says otherwise. Reata's website [2] seems to be the closest source.
Here's a little confirmation bias at work... those with kids can't really undo that decision so spending time with the family is a knee-jerk "number one priority" (how many people would really come out and say they would prefer to work than see their kids? even if it's true, I doubt it would be socially acceptable).
Those who prefer the 100-hour weeks will no doubt say work is the number one priority. See "saving money for the future" vs. "spending money in case you die tomorrow" as other examples.
Personally I've decided that life is absolutely meaningless, and I've found that to be incredibly liberating. It's helped me to not put so much pressure on myself to achieve (achieve what?) and live more in the present. It's a shame that people who don't find meaning in their life tend to take the opposite tack toward depression. Or others gravitate toward followership to anyone who will tell them how to live. If I could give advice, it would be to not do that. Half the fun is figuring out what's meaningful for you.
Otherwise, there are various clichés. People will say their family is most important and money is meaningless or some variation. I think those truisms are worth the amount of time it takes someone to repeat them, which isn't much at all.
And I love that scene in Fight Club where Brad Pitt is telling Ed Norton that he won't be truly enlightened until he knows, not just thinks, that he is going to die. I wouldn't risk your life or hurt yourself to figure this out, but if you're in your 20's and haven't had any near-death experiences, as you get older, you will DEFINITELY realize that your life is finite and it will change your perspective. There will be a thousand things that in the back of your mind you always have thought you'd have time to do, but then you turn 30 and start to realize that you probably won't. And that you need to start economizing and prioritizing.
Exactly. Sometimes, it pays to be detached. You can be passionate about something, but still be somewhat detached from it. The minute you let something/someone determine and define your life, you lose sight of the larger picture. And, the reality is that nothing lasts ever. Time and again, I have seen people surprise me - in both good and disappointing ways.
It's very difficult to find contentment in oneself - most people will call it a cynical and pathetic look at life. However, that's what life is. At the risk of sounding cliched - it's YOUR journey on the train. Everyone departs along the way. Some you will get to know more than others, but at the end of the day being aware that it's your journey and yours alone helps you not get attached to other things that might eventually end-up crumbling your world.
I feel the same way. Every single time I place a ton of importance on something, whether it's a relationship, or a project/career, it always comes back to bite me when I realize I can't have it all, and don't have 100% control of circumstances in my life.
To me, living life and always wondering whether I'm making the most of it every step along the way takes the fun out of it. Of course some introspection is good, of course, but I don't like to take life so seriously.
The conclusion that life is meaningless, is meaningless as well. That means you can live life however you want, without bearing much importance to that conclusion.
>> There will be a thousand things that in the back of your mind you always have thought you'd have time to do, but then you turn 30 and start to realize that you probably won't.
Absolutely! Start doing those things, pack them in. And when you're done with those, find some more and do those. This is the difference between living and waiting.
Spent all 2011 killing myself to bring a project in on time, missed kids's end-of-year shows, nearly got to divorce. This year I'm getting out on time, closer to home, and seeing a lot more of my family. Sure, it's less ambitious, and the possibilities of promotion are massively reduced - but I know where I'm happier.
I like to view life as one giant happiness optimization problem. (That's how you can tell I'm an engineer).
Pretty much all problems are taken care of this way. Time working/salary ratio? Too much to do/boredom? Just keep optimizing.
I do make a bit of an exception. If helping someone else makes them happier at the expense of some of my own, I'll go ahead and (try) to do it. Normally, helping someone else makes me happy too, but occasionally there's times where the kindest thing to do isn't the most enjoyable.
The difficult thing about that is that your first sentence said "I like to view life as one [...] problem". If detaching and letting go is so important to enjoying life, considering it a problem only makes that more difficult. You can't solve a problem and let go at the the time. Or, well, I know some people who can, but they've solved the problem long ago already.
I personally find that trying to optimize too much leaves me stuck in crummy local maxima. By the time you're attempting to use mathematics and modeling to determine the maximum return for happiness, you've lost sight of the bigger picture.
I'm going to post this because I genuinely hope to get some feedback ....
I absolutely hate the saying "you only regret the things you didn't do when you die not the things you did". Really? I suspect some aids victims regret things they did. I'm guessing meth addicts also regret somethings they did. I don't see how this cliche helps you decide what to do and what to avoid.
For a less dramatic example my father recommends choosing a high paying job that is not so interesting over a more risky job that's more fun. His experience is he took the a risky job, though whether it was fun or not I don't know, the risk didn't pan out. Now he's 69 and driving a delivery truck because he can't afford to retire.
It would be nice to hear more failure stories to contrast with success stories
It is a selection bias, we would like to be part of the success story, therefore we talk, write or read about it more. Learning from regretful decisions or failures is undervalued in many ways.
instead of wishing you weren't a meth head, use the experience to your advantage. help other meth heads get clean, since you can relate with them more than someone who has never been there.
wishing you didn't do something rarely helps.
life shouldn't be measured by success or failure. life just is. if you ever get a chance read siddhartha by herman hesse, a brilliant story of self-discovery.
1) If you're at a point in your life where you can afford it; go crazy. Work your ass off and climb whatever ladder you can climb. Live to the full stretch, travel, party hard but work harder. Don't care about money until you're 30. You will gather experiences that will make you a richer, better person as an investment in the rest of your life.
2) If you have relationships you value, people around you that you love, a future you want to build; do it. Show them your affection, build that better home or that better future.
Both will make you happy.
Some comments were already saying what the point is on saving money when you get some terminal disease and slowly pass away sitting on a pile of cash. Being sick at home for over 3 months makes you contemplate a lot about your current status quo and question the life matter a lot. Why am I stuck here? Why now? What have I done so far that made me crash like this, etc.
A friend made me a striking comment: "I'd be interested in how much momentum your mind gained in this forced downtime." And that's where this is good for in my case: I slowly gain inspiration and frustration about my life, charging a battery which will be set loose once I recover.
Live your life in phases. Work hard when you're working. Take solid blocks of time off when you can. Make each startup you try in a different industry.
Think back on a vacation you took a few years ago. Now try to remember other weeks that year. It's variety that builds memories and leads to creativity.
The more your life is a big homogenous block, the less you will have to look back on. "The memories of a man in his old age are the deeds of a man in his prime".
Create some memories, but create them with people. Memories you can share are so much richer than memories alone. This is one important reason to preserve relationships.
67 comments
[ 6.2 ms ] story [ 128 ms ] threadI'm still trying to figure out what I'd be doing with my time instead of working for a living. I think it would be working.
I'm in about that boat. Paycheck aside, I feel like contributing in a meaningful way through work has far more lasting value than indulging in hedonism or art.
Armstrong would have had a heck of a time getting to the moon, if it were not for those who worked to put him there.
Even if you are only an average artist yourself, and your own works will not be appreciated by many in the future, for many people they would like nothing more than being able to spend time creating art. Besides, software is half science, half art...
Perhaps you didn't intend it, but putting art in the same boat as hedonism is giving the latter way, way more credit than is appropriate. :)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/may/22/internet.so...
Shuttleworth continues to fund Canonical (although I think they may be closer to breaking even). Whatever you think of Ubuntu, it has certainly made a difference.
Obtaining money takes far too much time when you could be having fun (fun rarely involves much expenditure).
Go to far and you are right.
On the other hand, though, there is an enormous amount of freedom and peace-of-mind that comes from having a healthy pile of cash and relatively liquid investments. If I look back at the 10 years or so since I started working full-time, my increase in income has been nice, but the increase in savings has improved my life substantially more.
I agree there's no point to being the richest person in the graveyard, but I'd prefer dying with a little excess money to being in a position where I was always a few paychecks away from serious financial trouble. Balance is key, I guess.
To assume a healthy savings means I must be a miser is unwarranted. Most who are thin are not anorexic.
Balance, my friend.
You "value" your family. What does that mean? You spent one hour pushing your kid on a swing because you realized you don't have the confidence, discipline, or perseverance to do the things you really want to be doing.
You "value" your family because you hate yourself, but you don't have the confidence to admit it.
IOW, you live your life however you want to and when you feel like it you just move the goalposts to make sure you look successful. Depressed people are the ones with the integrity not to move the goalposts.
For me, you can view that problem two ways, "I'm going to work harder and prove my value to the company" or the move the goalposts approach, "I really didn't want that promotion anyway, I'll spend more time with my kids! No one will judge me as a failure if I do that."
Shifting priorities can be rational if you honestly realize your tastes and interests have changed over time, but most often it seems shifting priorties are just a manifestation of weakness - a decision to flee rather than fight.
Surely that might also be a realisation that the promotion you wanted takes more effort than you're willing to put in to it?
The idiocy of the comment is that "not getting that promotion" is not a failure anyway.
I value my career and achievements but I'd swap it in a second for my immediate family.
It's nothing to do with depression, fear, or failing - it's absolutely the way it should be.
What if what you really want to be doing is being with and enjoying your family?
So i'm not sure how everyone is so '4 hour workweek' in their comments; you can be with your family and you don't need millions to do that. If you really want that, there is no reason you are not doing it right now. I think if you have passion for something and you are postponing that for 'something something pot of gold', you don't really consider it that valuable.
Something for instance you quite often read in forums and such; 'I want to be with my family most, but I live in a city so I have this and that $$$$ costs per month minimum which is preventing me, in this economic climate to be with my family.' That's of course crap; move. There are tons of places in the world you can live of $500-600 / month and be happy with your family. But no there are a million excuses why 'thats not possible'. So you don't really want to be with your family that much, then, you have other goals topping that which you are trying to hide/disguise for yourself because you sound like a dick admitting that?
You can exchange 'family' with any passion. I have a friend who's biggest dream in life is to be a musician. But he comes up with 1000s of reasons why it cannot happen now. For the last 15 years mind you...
Given you are the product of a family (and, given your presence on HN, you were born into privilege). Have some respect for people who want to do well at raising a family.
Depressed people have different brain chemistry than non-depressed people. It's unrelated to integrity, or goals. (Except for where the two effect brain chemistry, which is very little). Science FTW!
Might is the key word their.
How would you live, if tomorrow _might_ be your last day?
WP:
> John Clifton "Jack" Bogle (born May 8, 1929) is the founder and retired CEO of The Vanguard Group. He is known for his 1999 book Common Sense on Mutual Funds: New Imperatives for the Intelligent Investor, which became a bestseller and is considered a classic.
As a parent with two small children, I'm constantly faced with two paths: I could work really hard, the result being eventually enough money that would bring me more "happiness" (travel the world with my wife and kids, for example); or I could extract every memory possible while my kids are this age.
When I think about being on my deathbed and looking back on my life, what will I be thinking? Will I have wished I worked longer hours? Or will I have wanted more memories of my kids laughing with me?
(This is largely why I'm building slow growth, sustainable lifestyle businesses over moving everyone to SF and working 100 hours a week at some startup.)
>To make money we lose our health;
>And then to restore our health we lose our money...
>We live as if we are never going to die;
>And we die as if we never lived...
Try to take that into account when you're making decisions.
[1] http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tenzin_Gyatso,_14th_Dalai_Lama#... [2] http://www.reata.org/interview2.html
Those who prefer the 100-hour weeks will no doubt say work is the number one priority. See "saving money for the future" vs. "spending money in case you die tomorrow" as other examples.
Otherwise, there are various clichés. People will say their family is most important and money is meaningless or some variation. I think those truisms are worth the amount of time it takes someone to repeat them, which isn't much at all.
And I love that scene in Fight Club where Brad Pitt is telling Ed Norton that he won't be truly enlightened until he knows, not just thinks, that he is going to die. I wouldn't risk your life or hurt yourself to figure this out, but if you're in your 20's and haven't had any near-death experiences, as you get older, you will DEFINITELY realize that your life is finite and it will change your perspective. There will be a thousand things that in the back of your mind you always have thought you'd have time to do, but then you turn 30 and start to realize that you probably won't. And that you need to start economizing and prioritizing.
It's very difficult to find contentment in oneself - most people will call it a cynical and pathetic look at life. However, that's what life is. At the risk of sounding cliched - it's YOUR journey on the train. Everyone departs along the way. Some you will get to know more than others, but at the end of the day being aware that it's your journey and yours alone helps you not get attached to other things that might eventually end-up crumbling your world.
>Personally I've decided that MY life is absolutely meaningless,...
To me, living life and always wondering whether I'm making the most of it every step along the way takes the fun out of it. Of course some introspection is good, of course, but I don't like to take life so seriously.
I'll send you a copy if you like...
but then!
> I wouldn't risk your life or hurt yourself to figure this out
why not? life IS meaningless after all, unless you're trying to imply that there is something more important than life...?
Absolutely! Start doing those things, pack them in. And when you're done with those, find some more and do those. This is the difference between living and waiting.
Pretty much all problems are taken care of this way. Time working/salary ratio? Too much to do/boredom? Just keep optimizing.
I do make a bit of an exception. If helping someone else makes them happier at the expense of some of my own, I'll go ahead and (try) to do it. Normally, helping someone else makes me happy too, but occasionally there's times where the kindest thing to do isn't the most enjoyable.
I absolutely hate the saying "you only regret the things you didn't do when you die not the things you did". Really? I suspect some aids victims regret things they did. I'm guessing meth addicts also regret somethings they did. I don't see how this cliche helps you decide what to do and what to avoid.
For a less dramatic example my father recommends choosing a high paying job that is not so interesting over a more risky job that's more fun. His experience is he took the a risky job, though whether it was fun or not I don't know, the risk didn't pan out. Now he's 69 and driving a delivery truck because he can't afford to retire.
It would be nice to hear more failure stories to contrast with success stories
instead of wishing you weren't a meth head, use the experience to your advantage. help other meth heads get clean, since you can relate with them more than someone who has never been there.
wishing you didn't do something rarely helps.
life shouldn't be measured by success or failure. life just is. if you ever get a chance read siddhartha by herman hesse, a brilliant story of self-discovery.
2) If you have relationships you value, people around you that you love, a future you want to build; do it. Show them your affection, build that better home or that better future.
Both will make you happy.
Some comments were already saying what the point is on saving money when you get some terminal disease and slowly pass away sitting on a pile of cash. Being sick at home for over 3 months makes you contemplate a lot about your current status quo and question the life matter a lot. Why am I stuck here? Why now? What have I done so far that made me crash like this, etc.
A friend made me a striking comment: "I'd be interested in how much momentum your mind gained in this forced downtime." And that's where this is good for in my case: I slowly gain inspiration and frustration about my life, charging a battery which will be set loose once I recover.
Think back on a vacation you took a few years ago. Now try to remember other weeks that year. It's variety that builds memories and leads to creativity.
The more your life is a big homogenous block, the less you will have to look back on. "The memories of a man in his old age are the deeds of a man in his prime".
Create some memories, but create them with people. Memories you can share are so much richer than memories alone. This is one important reason to preserve relationships.