It just keeps getting worse. I think this is going to single-handedly destroy the OSS ecosystem that Android enjoys. It is incredibly frustrating watching this play out without having an alternative to migrate to.
Just remember that the play store was ruled a monopoly and the app store wasn't because the "app store doesn't even allow competition, so how could it be anti-competitive?"
It's no surprise that Google will start mirroring Apple more if closed ecosystems cannot be monopolies.
A key question here is if installation of Google Apps can fail verification if the device is offline, or if they have some magic local public key chain of pre-authed all OK keys.
DEVELOPER_VERIFICATION_FAILED_REASON_DEVELOPER_BLOCKED is very clearly the purpose of the whole thing. Presumably this one can be triggered on an already installed app - a key question being how that triggering occurs. i.e. will the Play Store act to push out details of developers that are now blocked so devices can act on it?
I recently put my finger on what has been changing lately, especially after the assassination:
We used to say, that online speech, is not the same as in-person speech.
Online, you can yell horrible things, imply that somebody should "do something" about another person, but police showing up at your door is a tyranny, even if those same things on a street corner would've had you on involuntary commitment. Online, a developer might build an app that pulls off phishing scams, but they have the complete right to be anonymous. Meanwhile, the person cutting your hair, preparing your food, or even selling you flowers needs registration, if only for taxes. In person was a "real" threat, while online was just "venting," "trolling."
That's dying. Online is now the real world. With real world consequences.
I use Android over iphone precisely because I'm free to install whatever apps I want.
With this planned change my reasons to ditch Android and go to Apple increase dramatically. Why would i want half assed google walled garden when I could get the Apple one?
Sucks for the people who can't afford an Apple device and honestly sucks for all of us who enjoyed installing all kinds of apps on our devices.
Google, your platform currently does not inspire any privacy. It has no ecosystem going for it (workarounds do not count, I want Apple levels everything-works-together-100%-out-of-the-box). Your Watch and other products have repeatedly been called lukewarm, and the Fitbit integration with Google integration was the last straw that pushed me off your watch platform.
If you want me to buy an iOS clone with no competitive edges, I would rather stick with the real deal. At least Apple has been consistent with their views about what iOS is since day 1.
At this point, the only reason I have an Android phone is GrapheneOS. Fortunately it is not impacted by this. The day Google manages to make GrapheneOS unusable, I'm off to the iPhone.
This is my plan as well. If we loose the ability to run GrapheneOS, I'll get an iphone and treat it as a locked down home router, and use a linux phone with open source apps for my calls/messaging.
I will also do everything in my power to halt support for Android in favor of web apps. No sense duplicating work for two separate platforms if one is just a crappy clone of another.
It's not like Android and iOS are the only options exactly.
So I never spend much on phones, but I just got a Fairphone 4 running E/OS , which is .... like running android, except it blocks tracking by default, and you're in control. Some fairphones come with e/os pre-installed, but installing it isn't even all too fiddly, you can do it direct from chrome(ium).
And you can take it apart with your fingers and a screwdriver!
I was an iPhone user from 2009 to 2019. In 2019, when the iTunes backup from my failed iPhone 4S wouldn't restore to an iPhone SE (it made the phone boot loop) I got frustrated and went Android.
I decided to "sideload" all non-stock software on my Android phone. I never have setup a Google Play account. I kept all the APKs for the software I loaded over the years that I used that phone.
I just got a new Android phone a couple of weeks ago. I was able to just load all the software I use day-to-day from APKs (except for a few that are, apparently, processor-specific). I imported my SMS, contacts, and call logs using a nice FOSS app[0]. It felt remarkably like moving to a new PC does. It was nice.
I am really sad Google is ending this moving forward. Jackasses.
I'm just surprised how the responses here(including the original announcement post) at HN of all places are mild and at times indifferent to the fact that we are about to give up control of our devices and make Google the arbitrator of what we can run on them. That ship may have sailed for ios but it hasn't for android yet.
This is the time to ask what we can do about this, how do we stop it. How do we raise awareness among people, among law makers or people whose opinions matter to make Google take notice.
I'm all for alternatives like linux phones but it's not realistic in the timeframe. It will be a sad day if this comes to pass without least bit of resistance.
Outside of regulation, or a large portion of users switching to better, freer alternatives, I think the question is quickly going to become: how can we get around this and other identity verification nonsense?
Honestly just asking what good is Android certification on a device that has no network access?
Turn certification off and your... banking apps... and wireless pay... and play store... and online game cheat detectors... stop working? That you... already weren't using apparently because you have no network?
Sorry, I'm having a really the hard time following the use case behind the outrage here.
Everyone is mad because they won't have Android certification on devices that can't benefit from Android certification?
I really hope this will be the final straw to break the camel’s back and people will see that native platforms bring nothing but lock in and misery (I’m an Android native developer, don’t bother telling me about “native experience”).
As long as any old apk can be installed over ADB, f-droid just needs to release a desktop app, and I'm gtg. Yeah, it's a little inconvenient, and hopefully just a stopgap until Linux phones are viable, but still better than Apple.
Yes, so much for portability, the portability ship now is in the hand of two corporates, that do not care about what a user wants. The convenience, it offers, depends on the profitability of these corporates.
Well, I do not want to just in to one walled garden to another, so, I think, this is the end of portable devices for me. That is the stick, that Google and Apple both using to keep us in their hands, so, I'm going to do my best to say: No thank you, and F*ck off.
I might not ever buy a flagship or high-end smartphone anymore, but get a smaller laptop, and keep an old or cheap Android handy, which will have very little personal data in it. I can easily tether the Laptop with my mobile and do most of the things that are needed.
Yes, for bank applications, and some other applications, that requires app, I will keep the cheap Android handy. But, it not a personal device anymore, the thing that I loved about Android, it's just there, because it has to.
And I am done with a mobile device till a true Linux based mobile become available.
There is no future for "general purpose computing". The market won't sustain it. The future of computing is a signed, vetted path from boot firmware to application code. Everyone benefits from this, except devs.
Platform vendors benefit because they can collect license fees and exert control over the platform. Control is not necessarily evil; it also allows the hardware vendor to manage their reputation. People tend to blame the vendor when malware, or just poorly written software, makes things go awry; look at the flak Microsoft caught from poorly written third-party drivers causing Windows crashes back in the day.
Content and service providers benefit because the locked down platform provides reasonable assurance against compromise—hacked bank accounts, piracy, etc. which can result in losses.
End users benefit because now their computer or smartphone is as convenient and risk-free as a game console. iPhone is still the #1 brand in the US, despite being almost completely closed. NOBODY in the end user market gives a shit about being able to run arbitrary software. They would rather have safety, and iPhone gives them that.
Governments benefit because if app development requires a paper trail, app and smartphone vendors can be more easily strongarmed for law enforcement and surveillance purposes. Governments are requiring increased tracking by online services, including age verification laws in the US, UK, and elsewhere; "chat control" proposals in Europe, etc. Some governments (e.g., Brazil) are even implementing these requirements on end-user devices and operating systems. We are going to be living in a digital world that's more regulated, transparent to government, and accountable soon.
My advice is: get used to it. The free-wheeling hacker days are over, and they're not coming back. No one is going to listen to a bunch of nerds whinging that their toys have been taken away; those nerds will be told that it's time to grow up.
ubuntu linux phone, as soon as I have a few bucks and a day off, as my daily driver is exclusivly side loaded and I will feel a bit better knowing how the next thing works
30 comments
[ 4.4 ms ] story [ 77.6 ms ] threadIt's no surprise that Google will start mirroring Apple more if closed ecosystems cannot be monopolies.
DEVELOPER_VERIFICATION_FAILED_REASON_DEVELOPER_BLOCKED is very clearly the purpose of the whole thing. Presumably this one can be triggered on an already installed app - a key question being how that triggering occurs. i.e. will the Play Store act to push out details of developers that are now blocked so devices can act on it?
It seems like we're going from a reasonably acceptable option (GrapheneOS), to nothing.
We used to say, that online speech, is not the same as in-person speech.
Online, you can yell horrible things, imply that somebody should "do something" about another person, but police showing up at your door is a tyranny, even if those same things on a street corner would've had you on involuntary commitment. Online, a developer might build an app that pulls off phishing scams, but they have the complete right to be anonymous. Meanwhile, the person cutting your hair, preparing your food, or even selling you flowers needs registration, if only for taxes. In person was a "real" threat, while online was just "venting," "trolling."
That's dying. Online is now the real world. With real world consequences.
With this planned change my reasons to ditch Android and go to Apple increase dramatically. Why would i want half assed google walled garden when I could get the Apple one?
Sucks for the people who can't afford an Apple device and honestly sucks for all of us who enjoyed installing all kinds of apps on our devices.
If you want me to buy an iOS clone with no competitive edges, I would rather stick with the real deal. At least Apple has been consistent with their views about what iOS is since day 1.
I will also do everything in my power to halt support for Android in favor of web apps. No sense duplicating work for two separate platforms if one is just a crappy clone of another.
So I never spend much on phones, but I just got a Fairphone 4 running E/OS , which is .... like running android, except it blocks tracking by default, and you're in control. Some fairphones come with e/os pre-installed, but installing it isn't even all too fiddly, you can do it direct from chrome(ium).
And you can take it apart with your fingers and a screwdriver!
There's hope yet!
I was an iPhone user from 2009 to 2019. In 2019, when the iTunes backup from my failed iPhone 4S wouldn't restore to an iPhone SE (it made the phone boot loop) I got frustrated and went Android.
I decided to "sideload" all non-stock software on my Android phone. I never have setup a Google Play account. I kept all the APKs for the software I loaded over the years that I used that phone.
I just got a new Android phone a couple of weeks ago. I was able to just load all the software I use day-to-day from APKs (except for a few that are, apparently, processor-specific). I imported my SMS, contacts, and call logs using a nice FOSS app[0]. It felt remarkably like moving to a new PC does. It was nice.
I am really sad Google is ending this moving forward. Jackasses.
[0] https://github.com/tmo1/sms-ie
I used to be an Android dev, and occasionally dabble.
I use Android as I can put things on it.
If its going to be closed, I may as well get an iPhone, or stick with open and get a Linux phone next.
This is the time to ask what we can do about this, how do we stop it. How do we raise awareness among people, among law makers or people whose opinions matter to make Google take notice.
I'm all for alternatives like linux phones but it's not realistic in the timeframe. It will be a sad day if this comes to pass without least bit of resistance.
People are aware, they just don't care.
Turn certification off and your... banking apps... and wireless pay... and play store... and online game cheat detectors... stop working? That you... already weren't using apparently because you have no network?
Sorry, I'm having a really the hard time following the use case behind the outrage here.
Everyone is mad because they won't have Android certification on devices that can't benefit from Android certification?
You can't even test stuff you made on your own hardware without getting verified.
[1] https://fsfe.org/activities/ada-zangemann/index.en.html
I really hope this will be the final straw to break the camel’s back and people will see that native platforms bring nothing but lock in and misery (I’m an Android native developer, don’t bother telling me about “native experience”).
Well, I do not want to just in to one walled garden to another, so, I think, this is the end of portable devices for me. That is the stick, that Google and Apple both using to keep us in their hands, so, I'm going to do my best to say: No thank you, and F*ck off.
I might not ever buy a flagship or high-end smartphone anymore, but get a smaller laptop, and keep an old or cheap Android handy, which will have very little personal data in it. I can easily tether the Laptop with my mobile and do most of the things that are needed.
Yes, for bank applications, and some other applications, that requires app, I will keep the cheap Android handy. But, it not a personal device anymore, the thing that I loved about Android, it's just there, because it has to.
And I am done with a mobile device till a true Linux based mobile become available.
The PlayStore is full of crapware, and I'm using a lot of apps from Fdroid, including basics like keyboard and text.
If you're at Google try to push back on this please.
There is no future for "general purpose computing". The market won't sustain it. The future of computing is a signed, vetted path from boot firmware to application code. Everyone benefits from this, except devs.
Platform vendors benefit because they can collect license fees and exert control over the platform. Control is not necessarily evil; it also allows the hardware vendor to manage their reputation. People tend to blame the vendor when malware, or just poorly written software, makes things go awry; look at the flak Microsoft caught from poorly written third-party drivers causing Windows crashes back in the day.
Content and service providers benefit because the locked down platform provides reasonable assurance against compromise—hacked bank accounts, piracy, etc. which can result in losses.
End users benefit because now their computer or smartphone is as convenient and risk-free as a game console. iPhone is still the #1 brand in the US, despite being almost completely closed. NOBODY in the end user market gives a shit about being able to run arbitrary software. They would rather have safety, and iPhone gives them that.
Governments benefit because if app development requires a paper trail, app and smartphone vendors can be more easily strongarmed for law enforcement and surveillance purposes. Governments are requiring increased tracking by online services, including age verification laws in the US, UK, and elsewhere; "chat control" proposals in Europe, etc. Some governments (e.g., Brazil) are even implementing these requirements on end-user devices and operating systems. We are going to be living in a digital world that's more regulated, transparent to government, and accountable soon.
My advice is: get used to it. The free-wheeling hacker days are over, and they're not coming back. No one is going to listen to a bunch of nerds whinging that their toys have been taken away; those nerds will be told that it's time to grow up.