Good points, but maybe international outsourcing is the way to go in some areas. This is how it was sold "a few years ago" in some circles. Specifically, one argument ran that you could have people working around the clock globally, while respecting their own local circadian rhythms. Seemed great in theory.
> but maybe international outsourcing is the way to go in some areas
Seems like a lot of people forget there was a fairly massive push for this back in the early to mid aughts (for example, google "tech outsourcing 2004", as iirc 2004 was around the peak of the mania) and it generally didn't work out so great, with most companies who tried it pulling back away from it a year or two later.
Maybe it'll work better now, but I haven't seen evidence that much has changed that would modify the outcomes.
I feel like a big concern could be resolved by creating a new type of visa for students who studied in the US and now want to work there, rather than a general foreign professional visa.
Is this a thing we want though? The point of studying in the US is for a US education, not to get a job here. There does seem to be a sentiment that once you've studied here you deserve a job in the US, and I'm not sure that's the correct way of looking at things.
Students have the fewest skills, if we are to have a work visa program it should be targeted at high skilled laborers, who have worked in industry for enough time to pick up desirable skills
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. I've heard people here asking for curbs on H1Bs for years because of not only abuses, but also engineers who come with a ton of experience as entry-level hires. I know this very well, I was one of these engineers. I was a senior software developer from overseas hired on H1B at the same level/pay of US college hires. I'm a citizen now.
Now that Trump is trying to do something about it, I start seeing a flood of negative posts. We need to decide what we want.
By the way, this is total bullshit pushed by people who are upset that the loss of H1B labor will mean that they have to pay labor more.
If the offshoring was a comparable product and cheaper, they would have already done it. But guess what - everyone already knows outsourcing leads to a lower quality product!
For half that you could staff a new hub office in one of many countries where thats desirable and tax incentives are stacked in its favor. Phillipines. Serbia.
Maybe you send an engineer to go train them there for half the year. Still cheaper.
Now the ancillary benefits, the rental income, the food, the taxation, are flowing in the other direction towards the new host country.
Maybe instead of the H1-B marrying the training engineer and deciding to stay in the US, its the reverse, and now that guy starts a serbian family instead. The flow of knowledge starts to drip away from the US rather than towards it.
Which is why I support this law so thoroughly. Its so obviously terrible for the USA, and great for the rest of the world.
It falls short of the total US blockade that I want, but its another brick in that wall. One at a time Mr President. Step by step. Ban us from sending you goods. Black van people (including beloved childrens authors) at the airports. Prevent trained engineers from working in your country.
One of America's greatest assets is its brand as a place worth immigrating too. Much of the social capital is gained by high performing international hires who leverage the H-1B visa. We want methods for highly educated people to make the US their home. limiting this is short sighted and negatively impact the health of the country.
There is a website called jobs.now which has collated all of the H1B jobs that get (quietly) advertised to so that companies can demonstrate that no suitable US person can do the job.
Some are legitimately highly skilled, but you also see jobs like:
>>Develop and implement next generation Human Capital Management (HCM) software.
>>Requirements:
>>Bachelor's degree or foreign equivalent in Computer Science, Informatics, Computer Engineering or related field
>>2 years experience in software development
>>Develop and implement HCM software solutions for global enterprise
>>Create applications on cloud platforms
>>Work with Golang and NodeJS
>>Participate in full product cycle from wireframes and database models to UI/UX development
>>Home telecommute available
>>Application Instructions: Send CV to: LS, EPI-USE America, Inc. 303 Perimeter Ctr N., Ste 300 Atlanta, GA 30346
When was the last time you had to post a CV to apply for a job? This blatantly designed to ensure no US person applies (and if anyone in the US is qualified and wants to apply to stop the visa abuse, please do).
During America's 1900s immigration boom as much as half of the people that came gave up and went back to their home countries, yet more people continued to come.
100K one time fee will be easily amortized as a pay reduction over a period of 6 years by the H1B abusing companies.
That is equivalent to getting 5 years worth of salary when you work 6, assuming a median suppressed wage of 100K. This does not seem much of a deterrent for any of these involved.
This could actually result in wage suppression for the victim and nothing else in the long run.
The only real solution to the problem they think they're trying to solve is an absolute number of H1Bs allowed and various regulations added for companies to prove they are hiring for talent and not for price. Annual reports on similar position payouts vs what they're paying the h1b employee. Only by bringing true factors into the light would it "evening out the playing field" like the policy makers are saying but trying to rectify with bad policy.
When a "Think Tank" has an opinion, you can usually trace through the money who's political interests they are indirectly pushing. And if it's not clear then its hidden.
And if their opinion seems counter intuitive then it probably doesn't make sense, but they sure would like you to think this way please cause that's what the funders want.
> Second, explicitly prioritizing Wage Levels will encourage employers to find ways to game them.
Which would be a bigger concern to me if I didn't suspect them of doing this already. Wages do not seem to be keeping pace with inflation and US talent is already massively impacted by the level of industry monopolization in well paying sectors.
This administration does not care. It is obviously for sale. I think we're just re-arranging the deck chairs at this point.
Take a look how many brown people have left their country of origin and are doing science in the US, writing code for big tech, and contributing to the economy. It doesn't mean that the entire worlds population should be encouraged to move to the US. And maybe the right answer for us is to slow down immigration, but fuck... how about just a thank you for all the people who are working hard out here? I don't think these people deserve to be demonized as much as they have been by this administration.
In my experience H1-Bs know that the consequence of losing their job could mean being forced to leave the country. Management knows that too. Obviously this affects the incentives and behavior of both the manager and the employee.
36 comments
[ 2.7 ms ] story [ 66.2 ms ] threadSeems like a lot of people forget there was a fairly massive push for this back in the early to mid aughts (for example, google "tech outsourcing 2004", as iirc 2004 was around the peak of the mania) and it generally didn't work out so great, with most companies who tried it pulling back away from it a year or two later.
Maybe it'll work better now, but I haven't seen evidence that much has changed that would modify the outcomes.
Students have the fewest skills, if we are to have a work visa program it should be targeted at high skilled laborers, who have worked in industry for enough time to pick up desirable skills
Now that Trump is trying to do something about it, I start seeing a flood of negative posts. We need to decide what we want.
By the way, this is total bullshit pushed by people who are upset that the loss of H1B labor will mean that they have to pay labor more.
If the offshoring was a comparable product and cheaper, they would have already done it. But guess what - everyone already knows outsourcing leads to a lower quality product!
For half that you could staff a new hub office in one of many countries where thats desirable and tax incentives are stacked in its favor. Phillipines. Serbia.
Maybe you send an engineer to go train them there for half the year. Still cheaper.
Now the ancillary benefits, the rental income, the food, the taxation, are flowing in the other direction towards the new host country.
Maybe instead of the H1-B marrying the training engineer and deciding to stay in the US, its the reverse, and now that guy starts a serbian family instead. The flow of knowledge starts to drip away from the US rather than towards it.
Which is why I support this law so thoroughly. Its so obviously terrible for the USA, and great for the rest of the world.
It falls short of the total US blockade that I want, but its another brick in that wall. One at a time Mr President. Step by step. Ban us from sending you goods. Black van people (including beloved childrens authors) at the airports. Prevent trained engineers from working in your country.
Fine with me, if so!
Some are legitimately highly skilled, but you also see jobs like:
https://www.jobs.now/jobs/164577823-lead-software-engineer
>>Develop and implement next generation Human Capital Management (HCM) software.
>>Requirements:
>>Bachelor's degree or foreign equivalent in Computer Science, Informatics, Computer Engineering or related field
>>2 years experience in software development
>>Develop and implement HCM software solutions for global enterprise
>>Create applications on cloud platforms
>>Work with Golang and NodeJS
>>Participate in full product cycle from wireframes and database models to UI/UX development
>>Home telecommute available
>>Application Instructions: Send CV to: LS, EPI-USE America, Inc. 303 Perimeter Ctr N., Ste 300 Atlanta, GA 30346
When was the last time you had to post a CV to apply for a job? This blatantly designed to ensure no US person applies (and if anyone in the US is qualified and wants to apply to stop the visa abuse, please do).
That is equivalent to getting 5 years worth of salary when you work 6, assuming a median suppressed wage of 100K. This does not seem much of a deterrent for any of these involved.
This could actually result in wage suppression for the victim and nothing else in the long run.
Seems to be poorly thoughout?
And if their opinion seems counter intuitive then it probably doesn't make sense, but they sure would like you to think this way please cause that's what the funders want.
Which would be a bigger concern to me if I didn't suspect them of doing this already. Wages do not seem to be keeping pace with inflation and US talent is already massively impacted by the level of industry monopolization in well paying sectors.
This administration does not care. It is obviously for sale. I think we're just re-arranging the deck chairs at this point.
I've found "civic ethic" among these workers to be deplorably low—as evidenced by expressions of racism, classism, and political nihilism.
[1]https://users.nber.org/~sewp/references/archive/weinsteinhow...
Some of the roles look legit, some look entry level and require you to physically post your CV to apply.
You can see the list here: https://www.jobs.now/
then pluck them off the top, allow 5 family members
full citizenship
utter domination
New rules allow for feds to wave the fee.
Just seems like corruption ...