> [Flatpak, Podman?]: This is on our to-do list, but it'll take some effort because Flatpak is pretty isolated from the rest of the system and apps, so we'd have to find a way to expose installed apps, the Docker binary, and the Docker socket, and many other utilities
Vinegar wraps WINE in a Flatpak.
The vscode flatpak works with podman-remote packaged at a flatpak too; or you can call `host-spawn` or `flatpak-spawn` like there's no container/flatpak boundary there.
Nested rootless containers do work somehow; presumably with nested /etc/subuids for each container?
Distrobox passes a number of flags necessary to run GUI apps in rootless containers with Podman. Unfortunately the $XAUTHORITY path varies with each login on modern systemd distros.
This is just a Windows VM with extra tooling. Makes it look slick, doesn't make it "Windows apps on Linux".
Similar projects exist for gaming for example Looking Glass, which also uses a Windows VM on KVM (the "Windows in Docker" thing is a bit of a lie, Windows doesn't run in the container, Windows runs on KVM on the host kernel).
UX wise, this is similar to RAIL.
That's not to say that this isn't neat, but it's also not something new (we still have two flavours: API simulation/re-implementation and running the OS [windows]). If this was a new, third flavour, that would be quite the news (in-place ABI translation?).
And I had to come here to find out what it actually was. Why don't project pages ever actually tell you what it is, what it does and how it does it?
Half the time it's something like "Plorglewurzle leverages your big data block chain to provide sublinear microservices to Azure Cloud infrastructures"
At least this one kind of shows you having to install Windows.
It would be worthwhile to mention Proton IMO. Actually, without GPU pass through (yet, at least) I guess they are not even going after the same use-case anyway. It is just the other obvious comparison after Wine.
The rule of thumb is if you can use Linux and you don't have a very weird niche application that only runs on Windows, then you should migrate to Linux. There are plenty of good entry-level distributions and all sorts of applications too. Sooner or later, Windows will be abandonware with all the BS they will integrate, from always online to AI scanning all your files, so be proactive. I think even macOS is better than Windows in the current day, and you don't need a fortune too. The other day I found a mid-2012 MacBook Pro for $15 at the thrift store, installed 16GiB RAM and an SSD that I both had around, and installed the latest Sequoia with OpenCore Legacy Patcher, and voila, works just like new!
Until that day, there unfortunately ARE niche applications. Fieldworks Language Explorer (aka FLEx) is software developed by SIL Inc for doing linguistic fieldwork (dictionaries, text, grammars, parsing...) in minority languages. There's nothing like it. There was a Linux version, but they ran out of funding; I've used it, but reportedly there are major bugs.
FLEx won't run under Wine, but I'll be trying this WinBoat to see if it works.
(You may have heard of SIL's fonts, which they also make freely available. The fonts work for a huge variety of scripts, including the Nasta'liq Arabic style that other fonts don't touch, and Burmese, which from a writing standpoint is truly crazy.)
I mean, great. I've never actually tried since going all in on Linux. Figured I'd just abandon the Windows world. This would be useful though.
Does anyone here actually do this, with Winboat or any other tool? Every time I've tried it's been too flaky to be worthwhile, but it's been a good few years.
Ive been on DOS and Windows since the 80's... Recently I was mainly using Windows 10 LTSC, but now I'm finally transitioning to Linux Mint as my daily driver.. It's just so *good* .. The functionality, ease of use, and "just works" aspects of it are better than any other OS imo. It shows what can happen when a small team works with the goal of just making the OS good and giving it as much functionality as possible vs when a giant corp works on it with all sorts of random goals and agendas.
I am a game dev and avid gamer, so that was the only thing keeping me on Windows, but with stuff like Wine, Bottles, Proton, Lutris, + stuff like this coming out that reason is fading away.
I’m also an 80s DOS user. Commodore actually before that. And yes Linux Mint is the standout. There are people in the Linux community though that resist it for various reasons. It’s like trying to round up cats.
I read all of the comments here and I see an awful lot of people that stand on their heads to avoid using Windows, yet it seems they want what Windows offers.
I’ve used many distro’s over the decades. But for a user, Mint is the best. Unfortunately for someone who is anti-Windows, it’s also the closest thing to a Windows clone!
I refuse to dual boot and run all of the emulation software. But what killed it for me was the most popular competitive games. The most advanced anti-cheat software that keeps gaming fun from cheaters is only on Windows. So that’s what I use exclusively. Those more effective anti-cheat mechanisms are never going to be on Linux. Windows is increasingly going to be where it’s at for desktop gaming unless a guy wants to move over to consoles. There’s just no real answer for this.
Absolutely love seeing these projects that put a friendly face on amazing open source software so people can more easily run Linux and use the software they still need to..
Any similar work underway to get macOS apps running on Linux?
macOS doesn't support doing rootless RDP with macOS apps. If you're going to be using a full desktop anyway, skip RDP entirely and use an accelerated graphics view.
I always used a Virtual Box VM for Office. After giving this a quick try, I'm impressed. The dockered VM is much less bloated then a normal Windows install, and somehow running the apps via a local RDP connection is significantly smoother than the Virtual Box graphics stack.
It's definitely neat and the UX is kinda slick... I tried it last weekend. Unfortunately, even basic usage seemed to fail. Launching Edge browser would create a window that was frozen, and no apparent way to recover.. closing left the outline in place, and there were issues with the integration itself. Trying to connect the "Desktop" option seemed to freeze. I was able to connect to the session via the integrated web view, it looked to be asking to allow the rdp connection.
I really didn't dig in any deeper than that... didn't match the use case my SO needed, so wound up having to revert back to Windows on her laptop.
I do hope it gets better... maybe with some more app/system integration on the Windows side of things.
Let me guess. When it gets tricky it fails. USB? Own IP? 3D? Bluetooth?
My recommendation for happiness with Linux is:
Always use native apps. Don’t use WINE. Don’t try to be compatible to inherent hostile things. Don’t use VMs. And especially don’t use Dual-Boot. It sucks.
Basically migrate and go full Linux. Don’t look back :)
Proton (which is WINE derivative) works somehow, because Valve invests every single day tremendous efforts into it. But that’s the problem, tremendous efforts.
The good news. Every bit invested in high quality API/ABI on Linux pays off. Valve contributions to MESA and amdgpu are invaluable. Valve should honor native AAA-Titles and Indie-Titles for Linux - with exclusive Steam Awards. There is awesome stuff like Unrailed. Make the game developers think:
“I better should do a proper port. And it should not be done by the Win32 developer. Task the Linux developer.”
PS: I missed Counter-Strike so much on Linux for years. And the Valve came, ported everything natively, and it is wonderful :)
PPS: I use a Mac for two incompatible applications (Garmin Express and Zwift). Less maintenance than Windows. Less possibilities than Linux. Horrible file-browser. Window management is a pain. But it covers the gap without ruining my day. I have to admit, the Mac cannot run Counter-Strike 2. That’s a task for Linux :)
Very often what holds you back is not a huge and complex thing like an AAA game, but something far less demanding and obscure. Something like an app to design knitting patterns, elaborate, purpose-built, and without a huge team behind it. Not open-source though. In this case, seamless compatibility is great.
> My recommendation for happiness with Linux is: Always use native apps. Don’t use WINE. Don’t try to be compatible to inherent hostile things. Don’t use VMs. And especially don’t use Dual-Boot. It sucks.
Had I listened to your recommendation, I would've never tried Linux.
Sorry, but Linux doesn't run Photoshop. Or Valorant. Or certain VPNs, certain educational software, and doesn't work with a bunch of hardware.
Dual booting is still a hell of a lot better than trying to configure Wine in most cases, but if doing everything natively on Linux was an option, it would've have taken SteamOS so many years to become even remotely usable. And even then people install Windows on their Steam Decks to run certain specific programs or games.
For the same reason native Linux isn't an option, native macOS wouldn't have been an option back when I first tried Linux. And even today, programs like Paint.NET are dearly missed on Linux and macOS (yes, I know about Pinta), and stock macOS is infuriating to use without all manner of tools and background programs reminding me of my XP. I use Windows for my Windows tools, Linux most of the time, and macOS for my macOS work stuff. I'm not getting rid of either non-Linux OS because that would make doing certain things simply impossible.
I've found games running in Proton to provide better long-term compatibility than many native games. Despite Steam providing a stable runtime for native games, I have a few titles from their first major Linux push back in the '10s that are now crash-happy or exhibit substantial performance problems, but work perfectly fine when I use the Windows version with Proton.
Telling people not to even think about using their favorite piece of software is a good way to make sure they don't consider switching. A lot of popular Windows apps run perfectly fine in WINE. I've been using foobar2000 in it for a decade at this point, and have yet to find a native alternative that gives me the same feature set. So why shouldn't I keep running it?
Bad advice. Counterpoint: Wine works really well (especially for old applications) and there's nothing wrong with using it. If people restrict themselves to arbitrary rules then many won't be able to use Linux.
I switched my gaming desktop over to Linux last year.
My experience has mostly been that Linux native versions just aren't as good as the Windows-on-Proton version. (Shout out to Larian for their recent BG3 release, a much better native version.)
Totally agree that Proton only works so well because of the constant effort that Valve put into it.
Shouting at game devs to make better native Linux versions isn't going to work. What will work is that the market demographics are slowly moving over to Linux, mostly thanks to Valve, Proton and the Steam Deck.
I don't know about this project, but using KVM+Qemu w/ VFIO lets you partition USB devices (and most other physical assets) to your virtualized OS. I used to pass my mouse back and forth between Windows and Linux this way, and similarly for one monitor (mainly to demonstrate I could indeed run Crysis).
> My recommendation for happiness with Linux is: Always use native apps. Don’t use WINE. Don’t try to be compatible to inherent hostile things. Don’t use VMs. And especially don’t use Dual-Boot. It sucks.
This is terrible advice. Many people want to use Windows apps while using Linux, and Wine works just fine for that. And for those few that don't work in Wine, dual boot works great.
Just to be clear: I consider it to be a good idea to write native apps for GNU/Linux, but first stabilize the APIs so that they stay basically stable for at least 20 years.
Most of them. Kate, KDE's default editor (I use this on Kubuntu; it's nice). GNOME Text Editor, GNOME's default. Vim, for terminal use. Plenty of others.
Are apps run through WinBoat limited to 60hz like regular Windows VMs? I’ve gotten to used to higher refresh rates and 1 window being a lower rate drives me nuts!
Their FAQ mentions the Looking Glass Indirect Display Driver (IDD). That is something to look forward to. Looking Glass will work with an iGPU setup once IDD is released (but no 3D acceleration).
What Looking Glass managed to do was get video memory sharing to work between the guest Windows compositor and a client running on the host (with qemu). Unfortunately, it apparently requires an out-of-tree Linux kernel driver that they call kvmfr. You can apparently still share non-video memory without kvmfr, which may hopefully yield adequate performance.
Is this Parallels Desktop but for Linux? If so, this could be interesting however, what about graphics intensive applications? What does this offer that Proton or Wine doesn’t solve?
83 comments
[ 3.8 ms ] story [ 99.5 ms ] threadVinegar wraps WINE in a Flatpak.
The vscode flatpak works with podman-remote packaged at a flatpak too; or you can call `host-spawn` or `flatpak-spawn` like there's no container/flatpak boundary there.
Nested rootless containers do work somehow; presumably with nested /etc/subuids for each container?
Distrobox passes a number of flags necessary to run GUI apps in rootless containers with Podman. Unfortunately the $XAUTHORITY path varies with each login on modern systemd distros.
Similar projects exist for gaming for example Looking Glass, which also uses a Windows VM on KVM (the "Windows in Docker" thing is a bit of a lie, Windows doesn't run in the container, Windows runs on KVM on the host kernel).
UX wise, this is similar to RAIL.
That's not to say that this isn't neat, but it's also not something new (we still have two flavours: API simulation/re-implementation and running the OS [windows]). If this was a new, third flavour, that would be quite the news (in-place ABI translation?).
Half the time it's something like "Plorglewurzle leverages your big data block chain to provide sublinear microservices to Azure Cloud infrastructures"
At least this one kind of shows you having to install Windows.
trying it out just now, seems like a great idea !
FLEx won't run under Wine, but I'll be trying this WinBoat to see if it works.
(You may have heard of SIL's fonts, which they also make freely available. The fonts work for a huge variety of scripts, including the Nasta'liq Arabic style that other fonts don't touch, and Burmese, which from a writing standpoint is truly crazy.)
> Yes. :)
I mean, great. I've never actually tried since going all in on Linux. Figured I'd just abandon the Windows world. This would be useful though.
Does anyone here actually do this, with Winboat or any other tool? Every time I've tried it's been too flaky to be worthwhile, but it's been a good few years.
I'd chuffing love to have Affinity back.
I am a game dev and avid gamer, so that was the only thing keeping me on Windows, but with stuff like Wine, Bottles, Proton, Lutris, + stuff like this coming out that reason is fading away.
I read all of the comments here and I see an awful lot of people that stand on their heads to avoid using Windows, yet it seems they want what Windows offers.
I’ve used many distro’s over the decades. But for a user, Mint is the best. Unfortunately for someone who is anti-Windows, it’s also the closest thing to a Windows clone!
I refuse to dual boot and run all of the emulation software. But what killed it for me was the most popular competitive games. The most advanced anti-cheat software that keeps gaming fun from cheaters is only on Windows. So that’s what I use exclusively. Those more effective anti-cheat mechanisms are never going to be on Linux. Windows is increasingly going to be where it’s at for desktop gaming unless a guy wants to move over to consoles. There’s just no real answer for this.
Any similar work underway to get macOS apps running on Linux?
I really didn't dig in any deeper than that... didn't match the use case my SO needed, so wound up having to revert back to Windows on her laptop.
I do hope it gets better... maybe with some more app/system integration on the Windows side of things.
My recommendation for happiness with Linux is: Always use native apps. Don’t use WINE. Don’t try to be compatible to inherent hostile things. Don’t use VMs. And especially don’t use Dual-Boot. It sucks.
Basically migrate and go full Linux. Don’t look back :)
Proton (which is WINE derivative) works somehow, because Valve invests every single day tremendous efforts into it. But that’s the problem, tremendous efforts.
The good news. Every bit invested in high quality API/ABI on Linux pays off. Valve contributions to MESA and amdgpu are invaluable. Valve should honor native AAA-Titles and Indie-Titles for Linux - with exclusive Steam Awards. There is awesome stuff like Unrailed. Make the game developers think:
PS: I missed Counter-Strike so much on Linux for years. And the Valve came, ported everything natively, and it is wonderful :)PPS: I use a Mac for two incompatible applications (Garmin Express and Zwift). Less maintenance than Windows. Less possibilities than Linux. Horrible file-browser. Window management is a pain. But it covers the gap without ruining my day. I have to admit, the Mac cannot run Counter-Strike 2. That’s a task for Linux :)
(For games, there is Proton.)
Had I listened to your recommendation, I would've never tried Linux.
Sorry, but Linux doesn't run Photoshop. Or Valorant. Or certain VPNs, certain educational software, and doesn't work with a bunch of hardware.
Dual booting is still a hell of a lot better than trying to configure Wine in most cases, but if doing everything natively on Linux was an option, it would've have taken SteamOS so many years to become even remotely usable. And even then people install Windows on their Steam Decks to run certain specific programs or games.
For the same reason native Linux isn't an option, native macOS wouldn't have been an option back when I first tried Linux. And even today, programs like Paint.NET are dearly missed on Linux and macOS (yes, I know about Pinta), and stock macOS is infuriating to use without all manner of tools and background programs reminding me of my XP. I use Windows for my Windows tools, Linux most of the time, and macOS for my macOS work stuff. I'm not getting rid of either non-Linux OS because that would make doing certain things simply impossible.
Telling people not to even think about using their favorite piece of software is a good way to make sure they don't consider switching. A lot of popular Windows apps run perfectly fine in WINE. I've been using foobar2000 in it for a decade at this point, and have yet to find a native alternative that gives me the same feature set. So why shouldn't I keep running it?
My experience has mostly been that Linux native versions just aren't as good as the Windows-on-Proton version. (Shout out to Larian for their recent BG3 release, a much better native version.)
Totally agree that Proton only works so well because of the constant effort that Valve put into it.
Shouting at game devs to make better native Linux versions isn't going to work. What will work is that the market demographics are slowly moving over to Linux, mostly thanks to Valve, Proton and the Steam Deck.
They will never ever receive native Linux ports.
Understand what each OS is good at. Back in my younger days, experimenting with Linux was my defacto CS education.
I use desktop Linux when I don't want distractions I need my computer to do what I want it it.
Window's is much much better for music production. I'm not switching DAWs.
Primarily I'm a .net developer, I NEED Visual Studio to really be productive.
OSX is when I have an important interview or something. Although I did interview using Fedora recently. Fantastically stable distro!
You don't take a Lambo off road, you generally don't take a Jeep to the race track.
This is terrible advice. Many people want to use Windows apps while using Linux, and Wine works just fine for that. And for those few that don't work in Wine, dual boot works great.
Rather: don't try to be compatible with inherently unstable APIs:
https://sporks.space/2022/02/27/win32-is-the-stable-linux-us...
https://blog.hiler.eu/win32-the-only-stable-abi/
Just to be clear: I consider it to be a good idea to write native apps for GNU/Linux, but first stabilize the APIs so that they stay basically stable for at least 20 years.
What Looking Glass managed to do was get video memory sharing to work between the guest Windows compositor and a client running on the host (with qemu). Unfortunately, it apparently requires an out-of-tree Linux kernel driver that they call kvmfr. You can apparently still share non-video memory without kvmfr, which may hopefully yield adequate performance.
Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg50X9w5llI
[0] https://github.com/winapps-org/winapps