Sad to release without refreshing the high end line on 16” MBP. I worry they nerfed the 14” MBP to ensure the M4 16” retained better specs to not make the discontinuity worse. Otherwise the 14” outperforming the more expensive 16” would be uncomfortable.
Apple’s chip release schedule is so borked. It should be High end Pro and Studio first and then iPad, Air, Mini and downgraded Pro. Why they release the iPad and Low End Pro is beyond me.
Everyone buying their high end gear is buying something waiting to be refreshed now.
To any Linux users, I recently bought a fully loaded M4 MacBook pro to replace my aging Lenovo and strongly regret it. I thought I would use it for playing with LLMs, but local dev on a Mac is not fun and I still don't have it fully set up. I'll probably replace it with a framework at some point in the near future.
Edit: okay, that garnered more attention than I expected, I guess I owe a qualification.
1. Everything is just slightly different. I had to split all my dot files into common/Linux/Mac specific sections. Don't expect to be able to clone and build any random C++ project unless someone in the project is specifically targeting Mac.
2. Not everything is supported natively on arm64. I had an idea and wanted to spin up a project using DynamoRIO, but wasn't supported. Others have mentioned the docker quirks.
3. The window manager. I'm not a fan of all the animations and needing to gester between screens (and yes, I've been down the hotkeys rabbit hole). To install a 3rd party window manager you need to disable some security setting because appearantly they work by injecting into the display manager and calling private APIs.
So my person takeaway was that I took the openness of the Linux ecosystem for granted (I've always had a local checkout of the kernel so I can grep an error message if needed). Losing that for me felt like wearing a straightjacket. Ironically I have a MBP at work, but spend my day ssh'd into a Linux box. It's a great machine for running a web browser and terminal emulator.
So basically you're a linux user who is mad macOS isn't linux? Don't get me wrong, Tahoe is the worst GUI upgrade ever, but the last time I had problems with lack of native Mac-Arm support was ... 2021? I think your arguments are topical and don't point to a significant problem with the build ecosystem. Yes, rare niche packages haven't all migrated to Arm, but ... that's all you got?
It was different for me. I tried to move from Windows to Linux multiple times, but my Dell just refused to run it reliably no matter what. After fidling with multiple distros I finally bit the bullet and went for a mac.
I cant be more happier to have a Linux experience without the Linux pains.
Note that there certainly are quirks around arm64, however, coming from windows, i am no stranger to have to deal with such issues so they bother me less.
The best thing is, that i can confidently put mac into my backpack without worries of it performing a suicide due to not-fully-sleeping (common windowns issue)
I want to love Linux on the desktop as much as the next Linux fan, but I always end up coming back to the Mac (begrudgingly).
I really liked Windows when WSL came out, but the direction Microsoft seems to be going makes me want to run the other way.
Windows or macOS... for the hardware working well, generally just works as expected. The tradeoffs you make with each, are different. But it's usually not a hardware thing, as to why (in my experience).
I just put Linux on a 5th-gen ThinkPad P1. It works... mostly. Sound works... at about 50% volume of what Windows or macOS would output. This has consistently been an issue with me, every time I've tried to use Linux on the desktop.
It ends up being some set of compromises to use Linux.
And when video is a frequent part of my work and personal use... the quality of it on Linux just doesn't cut it.
For server usage... forget it. Linux wins, hands down. Zero contest. :D
You're doing it wrong. Mac is by far one of the best development environments and is used by millions for dev, including LLMs. In fact I'm running LLMs and image AI models right now on my M4 MBA and everything works perfectly.
For your dotfiles there's not too many differences just make a separate entry point for zsh that only includes the zsh + macOS things (a few system calls are different in macOS) and then set your .zshrc to load the zsh + macOS version instead of the Linux or "universal" one. This is trivial if you've split your dotfiles into multiple separate files to import individually from a central master file per OS.
For window management you want to use CMD + ` to switch windows in the same app and CMD + Tab to switch apps. You also want to utilize the touch gestures for App Expose and Mission Control.
The only thing that's still wonky is the touchpad Natural Scroll vs the mouse wheel scroll, there's a third party "Scroll Reverser" app that can give you normal mouse wheel scroll and Natural Scroll on the touchpad at the same time. Hopefully some day Apple will make that a native feature.
Stop trying to install third party window managers.
Funny you say that, as a long term Linux user who was in the exact same boat as you, I actually find Mac M4 my best Linux laptop purchase ever so far. I think what you're missing is its virtualization story. Put UTM on it, and you're back to a familiar environment, just on much nicer hardware. The first time I booted into my Linux desktop on it, I was blown away by how much snappier it felt compared to my ~5 year old top-of-the-line PC build.
I'm as much of a fan of Mac OS as the next Linux user here, but it's a very decent hypervisor and Stuff Just Works out of the box, for the most time. No more screwing around with half-baked qemu wrappers for me, vfio, virgl and what not. And running stuff without virtualization is a non-starter for me, I've been concerned about supply chain attacks before it became fashionable. Of course it would be even nicer if new Macs could run Linux natively, and I hope Asahi project will succeed with that, but until then I'm pretty happy running Linux desktop virtualized on it.
arm64 support is very decent across all the different OS now, I hardly miss Intel. I can even reasonably play most AAA games up to maybe mid-2010s on a Windows VM that's just a three finger swipe away from my main Linux desktop.
Anyone know when to expect the M5 Pros? I am on a base 16gb M1 and struggling hard in daily workloads. I am often running at 20gb of swap memory usage.
I don't really use local LLMs but think 32GB RAM would be good for me... but I am so ready to upgrade but trying to figure out how much longer we need to wait.
Eh, I have an m1 pro and it's definitely showing its age..
My colleagues on m3/m4 have a night and day difference in programming performance.
CPU, memory bandwidth, latencies, working on javascript projects that involve countless IOs on small files...It really shows. I can't wait for the upgrade.
The M1 MacBook Pro has GB6 ST of 2350, and MT of 8400
The M5 is expected to be ~4150 and MT of ~15500
And nearly 3x speed for SSD.
And yet there is nothing about the new MacBook Pro ( on M4 at least ) that feels faster. I would much rather pay for macOS upgrade that increase performance rather than useless features after features.
What really bugs me, is the huge performance gains are against the M1 and an (5-7yo chip) Intel Mac, that from my own memory had throttling and overheating issues. While not as impressive, I'd really appreciate if they simply showed the generational gains, or actual charts against several previous generations.
I'm still pretty happy with my 16gb M1 Air, but it would be nice to know some closer to real world differences.
I've been a Windows fan forever, but the new Mac hardware is making it hard to remain and it's about time for a new laptop... can't get a good Windows installed on these chips like you could on the Intel-based ones, only virtualized.
No WiFi 7 and WiFi 6E only is annoying. Especially for what they are charging. And Bluetooth 5.3, Their Pro Mac are slower than their iPhone Pro.
SSD has double the speed. I guess they say this only for M5 MacBook Pro, because the previous M4 has always had slower SSD speed than M4 Pro at 3.5GB/s. So now the M5 should be at 7GB/s.
Am I remembering right that the previous 14" MacBook Pro started at $1399 (and seems to be no longer available?), so this is a $200 price increase?
(I had just been looking at macs a few weeks ago, and had noticed how close in price macbook pro and macbook air were for same specs -- was thinking, really no reason not to get pro even if all I really want it for is the built-in HDMI. They are now more price differentiated, if I am remembering right).
Probably great, but when the hell are they going to do another damn colour. Hoping by the time I upgrade from the M4 Pro they'll have a green version and a cell modem.
49 comments
[ 7.3 ms ] story [ 54.2 ms ] threadedit: suggested retail price also dropped with EUR 100. Mind is less blown now. It seems like a good thing in fact.
edit2: in Belgium, the combined price of the 70W adapter and 2m USB-C to MagSafe is EUR 120.
[1] https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/new-macbook-pro-does-no...
Apple M5 Chip
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45591799
Everyone buying their high end gear is buying something waiting to be refreshed now.
Edit: okay, that garnered more attention than I expected, I guess I owe a qualification.
1. Everything is just slightly different. I had to split all my dot files into common/Linux/Mac specific sections. Don't expect to be able to clone and build any random C++ project unless someone in the project is specifically targeting Mac.
2. Not everything is supported natively on arm64. I had an idea and wanted to spin up a project using DynamoRIO, but wasn't supported. Others have mentioned the docker quirks.
3. The window manager. I'm not a fan of all the animations and needing to gester between screens (and yes, I've been down the hotkeys rabbit hole). To install a 3rd party window manager you need to disable some security setting because appearantly they work by injecting into the display manager and calling private APIs.
So my person takeaway was that I took the openness of the Linux ecosystem for granted (I've always had a local checkout of the kernel so I can grep an error message if needed). Losing that for me felt like wearing a straightjacket. Ironically I have a MBP at work, but spend my day ssh'd into a Linux box. It's a great machine for running a web browser and terminal emulator.
Note that there certainly are quirks around arm64, however, coming from windows, i am no stranger to have to deal with such issues so they bother me less.
The best thing is, that i can confidently put mac into my backpack without worries of it performing a suicide due to not-fully-sleeping (common windowns issue)
I really liked Windows when WSL came out, but the direction Microsoft seems to be going makes me want to run the other way.
Windows or macOS... for the hardware working well, generally just works as expected. The tradeoffs you make with each, are different. But it's usually not a hardware thing, as to why (in my experience).
I just put Linux on a 5th-gen ThinkPad P1. It works... mostly. Sound works... at about 50% volume of what Windows or macOS would output. This has consistently been an issue with me, every time I've tried to use Linux on the desktop.
It ends up being some set of compromises to use Linux.
And when video is a frequent part of my work and personal use... the quality of it on Linux just doesn't cut it.
For server usage... forget it. Linux wins, hands down. Zero contest. :D
For your dotfiles there's not too many differences just make a separate entry point for zsh that only includes the zsh + macOS things (a few system calls are different in macOS) and then set your .zshrc to load the zsh + macOS version instead of the Linux or "universal" one. This is trivial if you've split your dotfiles into multiple separate files to import individually from a central master file per OS.
For window management you want to use CMD + ` to switch windows in the same app and CMD + Tab to switch apps. You also want to utilize the touch gestures for App Expose and Mission Control.
The only thing that's still wonky is the touchpad Natural Scroll vs the mouse wheel scroll, there's a third party "Scroll Reverser" app that can give you normal mouse wheel scroll and Natural Scroll on the touchpad at the same time. Hopefully some day Apple will make that a native feature.
Stop trying to install third party window managers.
I'm as much of a fan of Mac OS as the next Linux user here, but it's a very decent hypervisor and Stuff Just Works out of the box, for the most time. No more screwing around with half-baked qemu wrappers for me, vfio, virgl and what not. And running stuff without virtualization is a non-starter for me, I've been concerned about supply chain attacks before it became fashionable. Of course it would be even nicer if new Macs could run Linux natively, and I hope Asahi project will succeed with that, but until then I'm pretty happy running Linux desktop virtualized on it.
arm64 support is very decent across all the different OS now, I hardly miss Intel. I can even reasonably play most AAA games up to maybe mid-2010s on a Windows VM that's just a three finger swipe away from my main Linux desktop.
I don't really use local LLMs but think 32GB RAM would be good for me... but I am so ready to upgrade but trying to figure out how much longer we need to wait.
we went from 10 hours to 24 hours in 5 years - impressive
i wonder why they advertise gaming on the laptop, anyone plays anything Meaningful on macbooks?
Sorry you made your first gen chip so good that I don't feel the need to upgrade lol.
My colleagues on m3/m4 have a night and day difference in programming performance.
CPU, memory bandwidth, latencies, working on javascript projects that involve countless IOs on small files...It really shows. I can't wait for the upgrade.
The M5 is expected to be ~4150 and MT of ~15500
And nearly 3x speed for SSD.
And yet there is nothing about the new MacBook Pro ( on M4 at least ) that feels faster. I would much rather pay for macOS upgrade that increase performance rather than useless features after features.
I'm still pretty happy with my 16gb M1 Air, but it would be nice to know some closer to real world differences.
I would be happy to sacrifice the EU keyboard and have the AI instead :-)
SSD has double the speed. I guess they say this only for M5 MacBook Pro, because the previous M4 has always had slower SSD speed than M4 Pro at 3.5GB/s. So now the M5 should be at 7GB/s.
I assume no update on SDXC UHS-III.
Air’s don’t have to be just cheap. I want a thin and light premium laptop for walking around and a second Mac (of any type) for my desk.
(I had just been looking at macs a few weeks ago, and had noticed how close in price macbook pro and macbook air were for same specs -- was thinking, really no reason not to get pro even if all I really want it for is the built-in HDMI. They are now more price differentiated, if I am remembering right).
However, it is not just because of the larger display.
M5 14" starts at:
10-Core CPU
10-Core GPU
16GB Unified Memory
512GB SSD Storage
M5 16" starts at:
14-Core CPU
20-Core GPU
24GB Unified Memory
512GB SSD Storage
So it's the cost of 4x more core CPU, 10x (double) the core GPU, and +8GB memory.