It's weird how many people's perception of this type of behavior is shaped by the person sitting in the White House.
EDIT: It's also weird how my comment is being perceived exclusively as criticizing the critics of this administration rather than criticizing the supporters of this overreach. My comment was intentional phrased very generally, if you think it is specifically about you, that reveals something about you.
EU's recently rejected chat control looks like child's play compared to this. These are some Stasi methods that are going to destroy the US if implemented. Europe already went through creating dossier on citizens in the past, the next immediate step is always fascism. Nothing good comes out of fascism, as the history showed.
Did you know that the State of California has a DNA sample from every person born in the state since 1983? It's required by law for the hospital to collect it and give it to the state.
India, which given its colonial-era ruling-elites who are maniacally obsessed with the Anglosphere, is today considered a "laboratory" for doing social experiments that'd be considered a outrage against human dignity in their own countries. This country was the first in line not only the biometric identification projects (Aadhar), and for demonetization (of 2016 with UPI). All of these were funded and pushed by USAID.
Both of these were implemented by running roughshod over constitution and regulation, by "roping-in" key regulatory people by giving them what they desire the most - access to the ruling elites in the US. Eg. Infosys' Nandan Nilekani was thrust to the top with his USAID funded projects.
Now the results of this "human corralling" experiments (note: a lot of what Orwell described came out of his experience in British-colonial India), is now coming to the West.
The problem with these types of technologies is that you will be at the mercy of whoever uses them. It's like chat control, censorship, gun laws, etc. You can't control how they will be leveraged.
I lived in California for some time a few years ago, and it was a mess, so I understand people being okay with this type of stuff if it will make them more secure, but it's a very risky slippery slope.
The other thing is that with all the data Google has, they can probably uncover everything they need just by paying for Google Ads data :/
... arent as vital as other freedoms like travel, anonymity, speech and contract. I dont like this conflation because i see it as a nasty and harmful bias.
One thing that i would prefer in biometrics would be that the iris/fingerprints get treated as what they are publicly available and easily obtainable data.
At worst using it a a secret key is similar to using your name as a hidden variable for authorisation, whent it sshould strictly be a identification token.And once leaked you cant revoke it .
Back on topic , a Gattaca type system is unbelievably bleak and when(not if) it is finallly shoved through.It wont take long to foist it on the rest of the planet (see the recent visa requirements viz social media and insane bond requirements demanded of some countries like Mali citizens being asked for $15K per visa application).
You don't leave iris prints everywhere you go. Even most fingerprints you leave are unusable for identification. Contrary to what CSI may have taught most Americans, even usable DNA samples aren't a given.
Biometrics aren't "publicly available" let alone "easily obtainable". They're easy to extract from you but this is why extraction and retention of this kind of data should be considered extremely invasive and sensitive. That wallet in your pocket may be "publicly available and easily obtainable" but that doesn't mean we should treat it as such - rather we should make sure it's actually illegal to do so without your consent: that's why theft is a crime.
A coworker from Chile has described their equivalent to a SSN as being used as a public ID rather than a password. Every IT company and government service has the same primary key in their database for each citizen. Wouldn't that be great!
It’s somewhat important to point out that this is the same thing that was done during the Iraq war to potential “insurgents” so the biometrics tech was “trained” and used experimentally there before it has been brought home. Wouldn’t be surprised if the people that used it in Iraq (as technicians) are now going to be the people operating the tech now in the US.
I used to think this kind of thing didn’t concern me. But once family members get pulled in and citizens get scanned by association, it’s hard to stay untouched.
Is this really about safety, or are we quietly building something we won’t be able to roll back?
Be careful - this may be a case where they say they're going to do one thing (collect data from US citizens), but walk that part of it back after people protest - while those very same people overlook the fact that they're still going to be getting every immigrant to submit to the scans.
Don't most people in the US get fingerprinted at some point?
Let's see. I've been fingerprinted, all 10 fingers, for, at least, 1) the US Army, 2) security clearance for a DoD job, multiple times, 3) a permit to ride a horse on SF Water Department property, and 4) Customs and Border Protection Global Entry, which also took an iris scan.
California DMV takes a thumbprint, but not all 10 fingers. They've been recording me at every transaction for decades.
So I'm on file.
I think of being IDd as a normal part of life, for any position of trust. Is this unusual?
Depend what the "position of trust" is taken. Security clearance for departement of defense is certainly not something the median citizen can be expected to go through.
Surely there's a difference between collecting a thumbprint for a driver's license or even collecting full fingerprints for a specific job type, and collecting your DNA and an iris scan just for being a citizen?
I'm German. My government literally issues ID cards and requires fingerprints for those nowadays as well (because terrorism or the children or whatever works as the excuse at the moment) but the idea of a government agency collecting my DNA seems far more invasive given the kind of things you can do with that information and the kind of things governments (especially in my country but in the US and Canada too) have historically done to groups of people under them.
If you think there's nothing concerning about the government wanting to collect extensive biometric data including DNA from not only people applying for immigration but also people associated with them or their application, maybe it would sound more concerning to you if I said that in German.
What may be information regarding a check for position of trust today, may well be information regarding a check if you should be locked up because of other reasons, tomorrow.
The issue is not the information itself, but how the information will be used. The chance of abusing information is not zero. But having rigorous rules and processes regarding that information, for instance mandatory destruction of said information, will greatly reduce the chance of abuse in the uncertain future.
Exactly. As a naturalized citizen my fingerprints are already on file.
- everytime I entered the US when I was not a citizen
- when I filed my green card application
- when I went for my citizenship interview
- TSA precheck biometrics because I travel quite a bit.
Also in the US, never been fingerprinted. Well, I think. You mentioned CA DMV, and I don’t remember a fingerprint, but I did have a California drivers license over a decade ago, so maybe? But most people don’t have security clearance, most are not in the military, most do not have global entry. Also the horse permit one is just funny.
47 comments
[ 2.5 ms ] story [ 75.2 ms ] threadEDIT: It's also weird how my comment is being perceived exclusively as criticizing the critics of this administration rather than criticizing the supporters of this overreach. My comment was intentional phrased very generally, if you think it is specifically about you, that reveals something about you.
https://www.regulations.gov/document/USCIS-2025-0205-0002/co...
India, which given its colonial-era ruling-elites who are maniacally obsessed with the Anglosphere, is today considered a "laboratory" for doing social experiments that'd be considered a outrage against human dignity in their own countries. This country was the first in line not only the biometric identification projects (Aadhar), and for demonetization (of 2016 with UPI). All of these were funded and pushed by USAID.
Both of these were implemented by running roughshod over constitution and regulation, by "roping-in" key regulatory people by giving them what they desire the most - access to the ruling elites in the US. Eg. Infosys' Nandan Nilekani was thrust to the top with his USAID funded projects.
Now the results of this "human corralling" experiments (note: a lot of what Orwell described came out of his experience in British-colonial India), is now coming to the West.
I lived in California for some time a few years ago, and it was a mess, so I understand people being okay with this type of stuff if it will make them more secure, but it's a very risky slippery slope.
The other thing is that with all the data Google has, they can probably uncover everything they need just by paying for Google Ads data :/
... arent as vital as other freedoms like travel, anonymity, speech and contract. I dont like this conflation because i see it as a nasty and harmful bias.
At worst using it a a secret key is similar to using your name as a hidden variable for authorisation, whent it sshould strictly be a identification token.And once leaked you cant revoke it .
Back on topic , a Gattaca type system is unbelievably bleak and when(not if) it is finallly shoved through.It wont take long to foist it on the rest of the planet (see the recent visa requirements viz social media and insane bond requirements demanded of some countries like Mali citizens being asked for $15K per visa application).
Biometrics aren't "publicly available" let alone "easily obtainable". They're easy to extract from you but this is why extraction and retention of this kind of data should be considered extremely invasive and sensitive. That wallet in your pocket may be "publicly available and easily obtainable" but that doesn't mean we should treat it as such - rather we should make sure it's actually illegal to do so without your consent: that's why theft is a crime.
My question would be how do we get there?
Is this really about safety, or are we quietly building something we won’t be able to roll back?
Let's see. I've been fingerprinted, all 10 fingers, for, at least, 1) the US Army, 2) security clearance for a DoD job, multiple times, 3) a permit to ride a horse on SF Water Department property, and 4) Customs and Border Protection Global Entry, which also took an iris scan.
California DMV takes a thumbprint, but not all 10 fingers. They've been recording me at every transaction for decades.
So I'm on file.
I think of being IDd as a normal part of life, for any position of trust. Is this unusual?
I'm German. My government literally issues ID cards and requires fingerprints for those nowadays as well (because terrorism or the children or whatever works as the excuse at the moment) but the idea of a government agency collecting my DNA seems far more invasive given the kind of things you can do with that information and the kind of things governments (especially in my country but in the US and Canada too) have historically done to groups of people under them.
If you think there's nothing concerning about the government wanting to collect extensive biometric data including DNA from not only people applying for immigration but also people associated with them or their application, maybe it would sound more concerning to you if I said that in German.
The issue is not the information itself, but how the information will be used. The chance of abusing information is not zero. But having rigorous rules and processes regarding that information, for instance mandatory destruction of said information, will greatly reduce the chance of abuse in the uncertain future.
"You could be refused entry to [...] if you:
[...]
- refuse to let an immigration officer take your photo, fingerprints or an iris scan"
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/california-newborn-dna-privacy-...
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/baby-dna-parental-consent-genet...