Not many companies are willing to maintain a compiler... but LLMs will change that. An LLM can find bugs in the code if the "compiler guru" is out on vacation that day. And yes, you will still need a "compiler guru" who will use the LLM but do so at a much higher level.
Made an account to say thank you for sharing this post (and to Rona Wang for writing it)! I stumbled into having an interview for a Compiler Engineer position coming up and I wasn't sure how to prepare for it (the fact that I got this interview just goes to show how little people really know about Compilers if they're willing to take a chance on a normal C++ dev like me hah) and I had absolutely NO idea where to even begin (I was just working through Crafting Interpreters[1] that I picked up at the end of my contractorship last week but that's to make an Interpreter, not to make a Compiler)
...And honestly it seems that I'm screwed. And I need about 6 months of study to learn all this stuff. What I'd do right now is finish Crafting Interpreters, then grab that other book on Interpreters that was recommended here recently[2] and written in Go because I remember it had a followup book on Compilers, and THEN start going through the technical stuff that Rona suggested in the article.
And my interview is on Monday so that's not happening. I have other more general interviews that should pay better so I'm not too upset. If only I wasn't too lazy during my last position and kept learning while working. If the stars align and somehow I get that Compiler Engineer position, then I will certainly reach out to Rona and thank you again lalitkale for sharing this post with HN!
It's a bit sad seeing how much focus there is on using courses and books to learn about compilers.
> I’m not involved in any open-source projects, but they seem like a fantastic way of learning more about this field and also meeting people with shared interests. I did look into Carbon and Mojo but didn’t end up making contributions.
This sounds like the best way to learn and get involved with compilers, but something that's always been a barrier for me is just getting started in open source. Practical experience is far more valuable than taking classes, especially when you really need to know what you're doing for a real project versus following along directions in a class. Open source projects aren't usually designed to make it easy for anyone to contribute with the learning curve.
> So how the hell does anybody get a job?
> This is general advice for non-compilers people, too: Be resourceful and stand out. Get involved in open-source communities, leverage social media, make use of your university resources if you are still in school (even if that means starting a club that nobody attends, at least that demonstrates you’re trying). Meet people. There are reading groups (my friend Eric runs a systems group in NYC; I used to go all the time when it was held in Cambridge). I was seriously considering starting a compilers YouTube channel even though I’m awkward in front of the camera.
There's a lot of advice and a lot of different ways to try to find a job, but if I were to take away anything from this, it's that the best way is to do a lot of different meaningful things. Applying to a lot of jobs or doing a lot of interview prep isn't very meaningful, whereas the most meaningful things have value in itself and often aren't oriented towards finding a job. You may find a job sooner if you prioritize looking for a job, similar to how you may get better grades by cramming for a test in school, but you'll probably get better outcomes by optimizing for the long term in life and taking a short term loss.
Great article. Here is a very simple test that I use to find very cracked compiler engineers on this site.
Just search for either of the words "Triton", "CUDA", "JAX", "SGLang" and "LLVM" (Not LLM) and it filters almost everyone out on "Who wants to be Hired' with 1 or 2 results.
Where as if you search "Javascript", 200+ results.
This tells me that there is little to no interest in compiler engineering here (and especially in startups) unless you are at a big tech company or at one of the biggest AI companies that use these technologies.
Of course, the barrier is meant to be high. but if a recruiter has to sift through 200+ CVs a page of a certain technology (Javascript), then your chances of getting selected against the competition for a single job is vanishingly small.
I said this before and it works all the time, for compilers; open-source contributions to production-grade compiler projects with links to commits is the most staightforward differentiator and proof one can use to stand out against the rest.
Interesting article to get a bit more knowledge about the field. I went quickly trough some of the books cited and I have the same feeling that they’re not very practical. Also I didn’t find many practical books about LLVM either.
I would like to read in the future about what is the usual day of a compiler engineer, what you usually do, what are the most enjoyable and annoying tasks.
I've been in compiler engineering now for almost a decade. No grad school, just moved into the field and did a lot of random projects for my own entertainment (various compilers for toy languages, etc). It takes a particular type of person who cares about things like correctness. It is a very bizarre subsection of people with an improbably high number of transgender people and an equally high number of rad trad Catholics.
Which is to say that all it takes is an interest in compilers. That alone will set you apart. There's basically no one in the hiring pipeline despite the tech layoffs. I'm constantly getting recruiting ads. Current areas of interest are AI (duh) but also early-stage quantum compute companies and fully-homomorphic encryption startups. In general, you will make it farther in computer science the more niche and hard you go.
being a compiler engineer is like making it in hollywood with a lot less glam. There are maybe 10-15 serious compiler projects out there, think LLVM, GCC, Microsoft, Java, then you've got virtual language bytecode intepreters.
The world needs maybe what, 5000, 10000 of these people maximum? In a world with 8 billion people?
The comments are wildly fragmented in this thread. I agree with @torginus, the article has less and less of anything useful to people that want to get into compilers.
Anyways, the "Who .. hires compiler engineer?" section is fairly vague in my opinion, so: AMD, Nvidia, Intel, Apple, Google definitely hire for compiler positions. These hire fairly 'in-open' so probably the best bets all around. Aside from this, Jane Street and Bloomberg also do hire at the peak tier but for that certain language. The off beat options are: Qualcomm, Modular, Amazon (AWS) and ARM. Also see, https://mgaudet.github.io/CompilerJobs/
I seriously attempted getting into compilers last year before realising it is not for me but during those times it felt like people who want to be compiler devs are much much more in number compared to jobs that exist (yes exist, not vacant).
The common way to get going is to do LLVM. Making a compiler is great and all but too many people exist with a lox interpreter-compiler or something taken from the two Go books. Contributing to LLVM (or friends like Carbon, Swift, Rust) or atleast some usage experience is the way. The other side of this is doing GNU GCC and friends but I have seen like only one opening that mentions this way as being relevant. University level courses are rarely of any use.
Lastly, LLVM meetups/conferences are fairly common at most tech hubs and usually have a jobs section listing all requirements.
A few resources since I already made this comment too long (sorry!):
I feel like the comments are too negative here. Yes, it may not be a step by step guide, but for niche roles like this, I feel no such guide could exist and only self study and some company taking the opportunity on you are the only ways in which one could get a systems/low-level job.
For those unaware or may find her name familar, Rona is known for her plagiarism scandal. She blocks anyone on Twitter who asks about it or the book she got a substantial advance for but didn’t publish after this scandal came to light. She seems to have walked away from it - this utter elite impunity makes me sick.
This is honestly one of the worst blog posts I've ever read, and probably does a disservice to representing MIT grads (who shaped my entire career 20-30 years ago). Anyways, as someone who was in this space, my 2 pieces of advice are: 1) either get a PhD in the field (and Apple would pick you up relatively easily) 2) have a small history of contributing to languages like rust, go or be prominent on the clang committees, llvm, ghc.
At least up until 5 years ago, the bar to join compiler teams was relatively low and all it required was some demonstration of effort and a few commits.
Not sure why they down voted you. I agree about the quality of this post. It is low and lack substantial advices. Too many words. I suspect they used AI to generate text maybe.
What does the other side look like? How would you go about finding people interested in this space, and who are not yet part of the LLVM and GNU toolchain communities (at least not in a very visible way)?
31 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 67.0 ms ] thread...And honestly it seems that I'm screwed. And I need about 6 months of study to learn all this stuff. What I'd do right now is finish Crafting Interpreters, then grab that other book on Interpreters that was recommended here recently[2] and written in Go because I remember it had a followup book on Compilers, and THEN start going through the technical stuff that Rona suggested in the article.
And my interview is on Monday so that's not happening. I have other more general interviews that should pay better so I'm not too upset. If only I wasn't too lazy during my last position and kept learning while working. If the stars align and somehow I get that Compiler Engineer position, then I will certainly reach out to Rona and thank you again lalitkale for sharing this post with HN!
[1] https://craftinginterpreters.com/
[2] https://interpreterbook.com/
>In 2023, I graduated from MIT with a double major in math and computer science.
I'm a bit shocked that it would take significant effort/creativity for an MIT grad with relevant course/project work to get a job in the niche
I would have thought the recruiting pipeline is kinda smooth
Although maybe it's a smaller niche than I think -- I imagine compiler engineers skew more senior. Maybe it's not a common first or second job
I graduated at the bottom of bear market (2001), and it was hard to get a job. But this seems a bit different
> I’m not involved in any open-source projects, but they seem like a fantastic way of learning more about this field and also meeting people with shared interests. I did look into Carbon and Mojo but didn’t end up making contributions.
This sounds like the best way to learn and get involved with compilers, but something that's always been a barrier for me is just getting started in open source. Practical experience is far more valuable than taking classes, especially when you really need to know what you're doing for a real project versus following along directions in a class. Open source projects aren't usually designed to make it easy for anyone to contribute with the learning curve.
> So how the hell does anybody get a job?
> This is general advice for non-compilers people, too: Be resourceful and stand out. Get involved in open-source communities, leverage social media, make use of your university resources if you are still in school (even if that means starting a club that nobody attends, at least that demonstrates you’re trying). Meet people. There are reading groups (my friend Eric runs a systems group in NYC; I used to go all the time when it was held in Cambridge). I was seriously considering starting a compilers YouTube channel even though I’m awkward in front of the camera.
There's a lot of advice and a lot of different ways to try to find a job, but if I were to take away anything from this, it's that the best way is to do a lot of different meaningful things. Applying to a lot of jobs or doing a lot of interview prep isn't very meaningful, whereas the most meaningful things have value in itself and often aren't oriented towards finding a job. You may find a job sooner if you prioritize looking for a job, similar to how you may get better grades by cramming for a test in school, but you'll probably get better outcomes by optimizing for the long term in life and taking a short term loss.
Just search for either of the words "Triton", "CUDA", "JAX", "SGLang" and "LLVM" (Not LLM) and it filters almost everyone out on "Who wants to be Hired' with 1 or 2 results.
Where as if you search "Javascript", 200+ results.
This tells me that there is little to no interest in compiler engineering here (and especially in startups) unless you are at a big tech company or at one of the biggest AI companies that use these technologies.
Of course, the barrier is meant to be high. but if a recruiter has to sift through 200+ CVs a page of a certain technology (Javascript), then your chances of getting selected against the competition for a single job is vanishingly small.
I said this before and it works all the time, for compilers; open-source contributions to production-grade compiler projects with links to commits is the most staightforward differentiator and proof one can use to stand out against the rest.
I would like to read in the future about what is the usual day of a compiler engineer, what you usually do, what are the most enjoyable and annoying tasks.
Which is to say that all it takes is an interest in compilers. That alone will set you apart. There's basically no one in the hiring pipeline despite the tech layoffs. I'm constantly getting recruiting ads. Current areas of interest are AI (duh) but also early-stage quantum compute companies and fully-homomorphic encryption startups. In general, you will make it farther in computer science the more niche and hard you go.
Doesn’t need to be a YT channel, a blog where you talk about this very complex and niche stuff would be awesome for many.
Building the Linux kernel with LLVM: https://github.com/ClangBuiltLinux/linux/issues
LLVM itself: https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/issues?q=is%3Aissue%20s...
The world needs maybe what, 5000, 10000 of these people maximum? In a world with 8 billion people?
Anyways, the "Who .. hires compiler engineer?" section is fairly vague in my opinion, so: AMD, Nvidia, Intel, Apple, Google definitely hire for compiler positions. These hire fairly 'in-open' so probably the best bets all around. Aside from this, Jane Street and Bloomberg also do hire at the peak tier but for that certain language. The off beat options are: Qualcomm, Modular, Amazon (AWS) and ARM. Also see, https://mgaudet.github.io/CompilerJobs/
I seriously attempted getting into compilers last year before realising it is not for me but during those times it felt like people who want to be compiler devs are much much more in number compared to jobs that exist (yes exist, not vacant).
The common way to get going is to do LLVM. Making a compiler is great and all but too many people exist with a lox interpreter-compiler or something taken from the two Go books. Contributing to LLVM (or friends like Carbon, Swift, Rust) or atleast some usage experience is the way. The other side of this is doing GNU GCC and friends but I have seen like only one opening that mentions this way as being relevant. University level courses are rarely of any use.
Lastly, LLVM meetups/conferences are fairly common at most tech hubs and usually have a jobs section listing all requirements.
A few resources since I already made this comment too long (sorry!):
[0]: https://bernsteinbear.com/pl-resources/ [1]: https://lowlevelbits.org/how-to-learn-compilers-llvm-edition... [2]: https://www.youtube.com/@compilers/videos
Hands-on balanced with theory.
We need more compilers (and interoperability of course) and less dependence on LLVM.
https://www.halfmystic.com/blog/you-are-believed
At least up until 5 years ago, the bar to join compiler teams was relatively low and all it required was some demonstration of effort and a few commits.
(Disclosure: am retired now)