Interesting but federal tax credits for heat pump water heaters is ending next month [1]. It looks nice though.
For people wondering what's up with the "150 gal virtual" capacity, it's actually a 47 gal water heater but it heats water to a really high temperature (if needed) and mixes it with a thermostatic valve to output the desired temperature. For example if cold water was 15 degrees C and you want the hot water to be 40 degrees C, it can triple its "capacity" by heating it up to 90 degrees C and then mixing one part hot water with 2 parts cold water to give you three times as much hot water. Of course, this comes with a grave penalty to efficiency so you should only do it for "party mode".
Pretty cool. Reminds me of Impulse. I think there's a big market for home appliances that have more care and attention to detail than we're accustomed to. No one I know is overly satisfied with their water heater.
The pricing page does not make it clear how much the actual unit costs, just $6500 with installation. Never purchased a water heater, but going to Home Depot, I see traditional options priced $500-$2000.
Which says you are putting up a high upfront cost, hoping to recoup on increased efficiency. Which could be worthwhile, but you would have to run some simulations if the price is worthwhile. Seems potentially easier to get a dumb water heater to run extra hot using off-peak electricity.
I don't expect this unit to be much more efficient than a $1800 home depot heat pump water heater. On the other hand, installation seems to include a hot water return line and return pump (the pump itself would be another $300 on home depot), and I've been quoted around $1000-2000 in labor to install plumbing like that.
A heat pump water heater seems like a no brainer way to improve efficiency.
They're not yet common, but there are many more options available over seas than in America.
This project seems emblematic of the challenges facing funding manufacturing initiatives in America.
What's funded are the projects that appeal to tech investors, more of a focus on flashy presentation, luxury design, AI, and cloud app features, than the baseline functionality.
We get innovation as a side effect of convincing investors that the idea will disrupt industries and create app ecosystems that lock in consumer attention.
Chasing the 100x unicorns and no longer training workhorses
There are systems (like the sanco2) that use an indoor/outdoor pump.
> This sounds terrible for efficiency in winter, as you will need to reheat the room
Sure, but lots of people have some point of the year they want cooling.
Even during the heating season it's only worse if you're heating the living space with something _worse_ than what you're using to heat the hot water. If you have a heat pump for room heat then you're moving heat from outside, to in the house, to in the water heater.
If you're heating the room with electric then in the winter it's no different than using an electric water heater (100% efficient).
... I may be out of touch with US water usage, but just how much hot water does the average household use?
They quote $2,500 10-year savings vs oil. I have my hot water piggybacked on the oil-fired condensing boiler unit that's also used for my central heating, and I doubt I burn more than $250/year total on the hot water side of the equation (in a 4-bed, 4-bath house).
Technology Connections have a video about how water heaters work in detail and how much power can be saved by strategically turning them off when not needed.
The best investment in my comfort and upgrading my home was two redundantly configured Navien continuous water heaters.
Never worry about running out of hot water ever again. If I’m gone on a trip for 2 weeks my hot water bill is zero. Due to having overcapacity, whenever I have guests staying with me no one ever has to worry about simultaneously using showers or any other hot water at all. I run out of water pressure before I do heating capacity.
If one breaks I just schedule a repair or replacement for weeks in advance and have to limit folks to 2 simultaneous showers at any given time. Hasn’t happened yet.
I will never go back to a tank based water heater unless outright forced into it. It’s one of those “TiVo like” upgrades to your lifestyle you never knew you needed until you have it.
Certainly not cheap, but also not prohibitively expensive if you can find a competent installer who doesn’t overcharge.
> If I’m gone on a trip for 2 weeks my hot water bill is zero
You mention other advantages, but money isn't one. You're limited to 100% efficiency with tankless.
Although an idle hot water tank can waste ~70W (~1.7kWh) of power, this is way more than made up for by using a heat pump. Plus tankless strains the grid a lot more than any system with a buffer built in.
$6.5k for a water heater? Does it make coffee and give back massages?But seriously, is it going to recoup the extra 4.5$ in 10 years or so or however often people replace water heaters.
And hopefully the smart part is not relying on external connections or services. Otherwise next time the cloud service goes down you end up taking cold showers, both figuratively and literally.
These data mining companies really take us for chumps.
Pay EXTRA for a water heater that collects data on when you shower, how much water you use, and at what temperature, so that they can sell that that to someone who wants to serve you a towel ad on your smart fridge screen after you get dressed.
Color me skeptical but the lack of mention about data privacy on that website screams this to me:
Pay EXTRA for an over engineered water heater whose company sells your data about how much water you use, when you use it, and at what temperature, so that costco or someone can serve you a towel ad on your smart fridge screen after you get dressed or do the dishes.
20 comments
[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 57.7 ms ] threadFor people wondering what's up with the "150 gal virtual" capacity, it's actually a 47 gal water heater but it heats water to a really high temperature (if needed) and mixes it with a thermostatic valve to output the desired temperature. For example if cold water was 15 degrees C and you want the hot water to be 40 degrees C, it can triple its "capacity" by heating it up to 90 degrees C and then mixing one part hot water with 2 parts cold water to give you three times as much hot water. Of course, this comes with a grave penalty to efficiency so you should only do it for "party mode".
[1] https://www.energystar.gov/about/federal-tax-credits
Which says you are putting up a high upfront cost, hoping to recoup on increased efficiency. Which could be worthwhile, but you would have to run some simulations if the price is worthwhile. Seems potentially easier to get a dumb water heater to run extra hot using off-peak electricity.
This project seems emblematic of the challenges facing funding manufacturing initiatives in America. What's funded are the projects that appeal to tech investors, more of a focus on flashy presentation, luxury design, AI, and cloud app features, than the baseline functionality.
We get innovation as a side effect of convincing investors that the idea will disrupt industries and create app ecosystems that lock in consumer attention. Chasing the 100x unicorns and no longer training workhorses
> This sounds terrible for efficiency in winter, as you will need to reheat the room
Sure, but lots of people have some point of the year they want cooling.
Even during the heating season it's only worse if you're heating the living space with something _worse_ than what you're using to heat the hot water. If you have a heat pump for room heat then you're moving heat from outside, to in the house, to in the water heater.
If you're heating the room with electric then in the winter it's no different than using an electric water heater (100% efficient).
They quote $2,500 10-year savings vs oil. I have my hot water piggybacked on the oil-fired condensing boiler unit that's also used for my central heating, and I doubt I burn more than $250/year total on the hot water side of the equation (in a 4-bed, 4-bath house).
The last "intelligent" systems that made sense to me in the home are variable speed HVAC and micro grid / solar / battery stuff.
What is the value add to the customer of making hot water an app that can presumably stop working the next time AWS goes down?
https://youtu.be/Bm7L-2J52GU
However, the website has some weird vibes as well, like why would you say something like below?
> And some just want Dad Mode for when your teenager needs to finish that shower.
Never worry about running out of hot water ever again. If I’m gone on a trip for 2 weeks my hot water bill is zero. Due to having overcapacity, whenever I have guests staying with me no one ever has to worry about simultaneously using showers or any other hot water at all. I run out of water pressure before I do heating capacity.
If one breaks I just schedule a repair or replacement for weeks in advance and have to limit folks to 2 simultaneous showers at any given time. Hasn’t happened yet.
I will never go back to a tank based water heater unless outright forced into it. It’s one of those “TiVo like” upgrades to your lifestyle you never knew you needed until you have it.
Certainly not cheap, but also not prohibitively expensive if you can find a competent installer who doesn’t overcharge.
You mention other advantages, but money isn't one. You're limited to 100% efficiency with tankless.
Although an idle hot water tank can waste ~70W (~1.7kWh) of power, this is way more than made up for by using a heat pump. Plus tankless strains the grid a lot more than any system with a buffer built in.
And hopefully the smart part is not relying on external connections or services. Otherwise next time the cloud service goes down you end up taking cold showers, both figuratively and literally.
Pay EXTRA for a water heater that collects data on when you shower, how much water you use, and at what temperature, so that they can sell that that to someone who wants to serve you a towel ad on your smart fridge screen after you get dressed.
Pay EXTRA for an over engineered water heater whose company sells your data about how much water you use, when you use it, and at what temperature, so that costco or someone can serve you a towel ad on your smart fridge screen after you get dressed or do the dishes.
Long term support for these internet connected data miners is my first thought.
Gimmick is my second thought.