I’m very happy to see a US organisations picking this up finally. Apple/Google clearly want to fight this on a country by country basis so they can stretch it until forever. Hope the pressure results in meaningful changes for all.
They only do this now because Trump is president. It's very dishonest that they didn't fight for it before. ACLU etc are pro-censorship, they also want to censor other viewpoints, don't be fooled. They are screaming now because they are the ones targeted. I won't fall for it.
While censorship is one thing, they forgot another overlooked ability of these app stores: pushing unwanted apps/services to our personal devices without our knowledge.The fact that the majority of people don’t care about this censorship and backdoors makes me think we don’t really appreciate the concept of freedom, and maybe we are okay with being slaves—at least until we cannot take it anymore. Maybe that’s why history repeats itself every few decades to remind us about these values.
Well, there is the issue of security. While the app stores are also far from perfect on that issue, it’s still better than the Wild West given the sheer number of apps they have to do deal with. Then there’s also the issue of hosting and deploying the client app. Convenience has a cost
I get some push back from a few tech friends because I avoid using apps (except for things like Chess game apps). I can’t say for sure that preferring web versions of services helps with censorship, but it can’t hurt.
Using web versions, not apps, is important because companies keep user device statistics and if enough people insist in using web versions, the the web will continue to be at least partially supported by big tech.
> I can’t say for sure that preferring web versions of services helps with censorship
The linked article isn't enough to convince you? Look up Gab or Parler. (Yes, I find most of the speech there reprehensible. No, I don't think they should be denied the right to publish and distribute an app.)
Using a social media app instead of a website, as most people do, means that everything you are seeing has essentially been pre-approved by Apple and Google.
If the tide swings even a little further to the right on X, expect the X app to be banned as well. I was secretly hoping that it would be banned when Musk took over just to remind the right of why centralized app stores are a terrible idea. But with ICEBlock the left has finally been alerted to that fact as well, which might be even more beneficial to the cause of software freedom in the long run, since the left is generally less afraid of the proper solution to this problem, regulation.
In the meantime, keep using web apps instead of native apps.
You should install F-Droid. lmoat every app on there is completely ethical, and there are many (not enough but many).
Many of the ones that require a server side connect to your self hosted server instead of some central server on the cloud, which is a reason they will never get popular, but sounds perfect for you. There are some that use central servers, and this fact will be clearly stated in the antifeatures section. Many other F-Droid apps just work offline. And hardly any have ads.
I subscribe to the NYT and find it so irritating that they regularly prompt me to download their app from safari on ios I may cancel. I do not want their app ever.
Yep. Not using apps and avoiding the cloud at all costs (e.g. not backing up everything to iCloud, turning off one drive) are litmus tests for having a clue. Using Bluetooth is almost the same but it’s hard to get by without it nowadays. Same for connecting your tv to the internet.
Glad to see I'm not alone. I never install apps unless there's no other way, and often remove them as soon as possible. My home screen is a collection of web shortcuts. Amazon, YouTube, X, bank, all web links. But I also use LineageOS with MicroG.
I've been asked why, and it's not really fear of surveillance (although I'm not a fan of it) or making a difference or whatever, just because it's one of the few ways I'm able to give the finger. Sure, noone will notice but it makes me feel better :)
Personally I generally prefer the UX of apps for software that I trust, ie, open source software downloaded via F-Droid. I feel the same with native desktop clients. For untrusted software, web apps are the way to go.
let's say for the ICEblock or whatever - pull up a map pin (geotag), that can be done in a web app.
the things most people advocate apps for e.g notifications are nuisances that some of us permanently turned off. My phone is always on do not disturb, I get 0 notifications. The only time I prefer notifications is something actionable - I pay online then the bank says open app to approve in-app notification (pop up) not those things (notifications) that just come to your phone asynchronously and bother you.
I have a smartwatch (if at all) garmin it's not hooked up to my phone for notifications.
unless you're making games / hell now games can leverage webgpu - no reason to make native apps at all for 96% of things. just make a web app - service workers enable offline access for some things.
- my simple take -> do what the porno companies do in regards to tech. simple & effective. but please don't copy their ads thing.
I'm disappointed by the EFF not mentioning PWAs and web apps. Fighting censorship means fighting for those too. Platform owners will always have more direct control over sideloading.
I just wish a culture of quality would become the rule and not the exception in web app development. It's a far more frequent thing for web apps to stutter and make my phone hot (or on a computer, keep an entire core pegged doing nothing) than it is for native apps to do the same. This experience is universal between browsers and platforms, too; I've observed it on Chrome under Android and Edge on Windows for example.
Of course there are plenty of crappy native apps too, but the incidence and severity is comparatively lower and in many cases, there are well-behaved "handcrafted" small dev alternatives to crappy native apps which are much less common (or at least, more difficult to find) on the web.
I've been a web/ux guy for a long time now and I don't think I've ever used a single mobile app/site that is better than a proper full screen piece of software. It's always been a compromise no matter how hard myself or my designers try. Maybe quick photo/video edits but that's less because they're good or they have quality user experiences but more because its often overkill to pop open Photoshop just to cut out a dog pooping in the background or whatever. Most times I feel like mobile devs (myself included) don't even utilize the various unique features mobile devices do have.
I'm also old, cranky and turning into a crusty CLI guy as I get even older and crankier. If you kids need more than a TUI, get off my lawn!
I also avoid apps. I tell everyone that I meet to avoid apps because the general population is going to drive us right into a future where there are no more web-based options and almost everything must be accessed through a separate app. People are simply not aware of what they're giving up by using apps that would work perfectly fine as websites.
The title is correct. The landscape became dangerous because governments withdraw from regulating the space unleashing big corporates on citizen's privacy and options.
Apple / Google did not but should sue the Gov't for this abuse. Perhaps it could be more popularized, to sway Goo-Apple's mind and take the expensive plunge.
Glad the ACLU is starting to talk about it, at the least.
This is why a real, committed FLOSS OS is needed for smartphones. Something like how Debian works. You have a non-commercial entity steering the project, it has a governance model, and the goal is to create something that ultimately, no one owns or can take full control over.
there are plenty of "real" open source mobile OSes. the issue is third party apps. if Debian couldn't run NGINX, Apache, Docker, Kubernetes, etc, it wouldn't matter how mature or solid the OS is, because 90% of software people want to run on a server doesn't work.
if FAANG apps and banking apps don't run on a mobile OS it will never be viable. the government, these big companies, and the device manufacturers all have a vested interest in making sure it never happens.
Yes. Apps are now just another layer of privacy invasion. 95% of apps could just be a website with zero reduction in function. Literally a bookmark on your home screen to the thing.
It is not your smartphone. The user computer is yours but the phone is owned by the telcom. You do not have a license to operate it. The telco does. They are the owners of your smart phone. Smart phones are terrible computing devices. They are excellent shopping/bank terminals and navigational aids, but they are not allowed to compute. Set it to host a hotspot and use a real computer if you want control. A smartphone will never, can never, allow you to own it. It would be illegal.
Another way these app stores enable censorship is by having arcane and inscrutable review processes, where they often ban your app for no reason with no recourse (unless you know a Googler or Apple employee, who can investigate).
For example, we work with Aween Rayeh [1], an app that provides real-time traffic information about Israeli checkpoints in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. The author's account was banned for no reason at all on Google Play [2]. There was no means to get an appeal or a review.
What typically we see happening is that someone internally at these companies issues a ban for what we assume are ideological reasons. Then when someone looks into it there's no actual reason for the ban to have happened, and it sails through. We see similar thing with shadow banning on social media: someone gets hard flagged and their account is completely shut down, and then when someone looks into it, there was never a reason to do it in the first place.
I wish I had more control over what the app stores show me. I should be able to block or hide apps on the storefront. Stop showing me TikTok Temu or Shein.
- Companies: comply with legislations they are bound to comply with
- you: Censorship!
I understand that not everyone gets a chance to vote for laws in the world, but for a company to do business in any country you have to comply with regulations.
The ACLU only writes these articles when the system is being used to take down something they like politically.
They never had a problem with the App Store removing Gab, Parler, or Infowars. It’s hard to take institutions like the ACLU seriously when they have such obvious bias. If the ACLU had taken a principled stance when the system was being used to take down things that they didn’t like, they would have been able to keep their legitimacy.
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[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 77.3 ms ] threadWe have moderators, here in hn. We also have them in reddit.
So sometimes we like censorship and sometimes we don't.
Using web versions, not apps, is important because companies keep user device statistics and if enough people insist in using web versions, the the web will continue to be at least partially supported by big tech.
The linked article isn't enough to convince you? Look up Gab or Parler. (Yes, I find most of the speech there reprehensible. No, I don't think they should be denied the right to publish and distribute an app.)
Using a social media app instead of a website, as most people do, means that everything you are seeing has essentially been pre-approved by Apple and Google.
If the tide swings even a little further to the right on X, expect the X app to be banned as well. I was secretly hoping that it would be banned when Musk took over just to remind the right of why centralized app stores are a terrible idea. But with ICEBlock the left has finally been alerted to that fact as well, which might be even more beneficial to the cause of software freedom in the long run, since the left is generally less afraid of the proper solution to this problem, regulation.
In the meantime, keep using web apps instead of native apps.
Many of the ones that require a server side connect to your self hosted server instead of some central server on the cloud, which is a reason they will never get popular, but sounds perfect for you. There are some that use central servers, and this fact will be clearly stated in the antifeatures section. Many other F-Droid apps just work offline. And hardly any have ads.
ahem, heard of cloudflare? web hosters and developers are voluntarily centralizing themselves.
I've been asked why, and it's not really fear of surveillance (although I'm not a fan of it) or making a difference or whatever, just because it's one of the few ways I'm able to give the finger. Sure, noone will notice but it makes me feel better :)
The standard layman, on the other hand, wants to be able to trust that they can trust people.
let's say for the ICEblock or whatever - pull up a map pin (geotag), that can be done in a web app.
the things most people advocate apps for e.g notifications are nuisances that some of us permanently turned off. My phone is always on do not disturb, I get 0 notifications. The only time I prefer notifications is something actionable - I pay online then the bank says open app to approve in-app notification (pop up) not those things (notifications) that just come to your phone asynchronously and bother you.
I have a smartwatch (if at all) garmin it's not hooked up to my phone for notifications.
unless you're making games / hell now games can leverage webgpu - no reason to make native apps at all for 96% of things. just make a web app - service workers enable offline access for some things.
- my simple take -> do what the porno companies do in regards to tech. simple & effective. but please don't copy their ads thing.
Of course there are plenty of crappy native apps too, but the incidence and severity is comparatively lower and in many cases, there are well-behaved "handcrafted" small dev alternatives to crappy native apps which are much less common (or at least, more difficult to find) on the web.
I'm also old, cranky and turning into a crusty CLI guy as I get even older and crankier. If you kids need more than a TUI, get off my lawn!
I'm not installing my electricity providers app with any permissions when their website shows the same.
It is a Corporate-Government dystopia.
Glad the ACLU is starting to talk about it, at the least.
if FAANG apps and banking apps don't run on a mobile OS it will never be viable. the government, these big companies, and the device manufacturers all have a vested interest in making sure it never happens.
Google probably knew about this rule change long in advance and it's what motivated them.
For example, we work with Aween Rayeh [1], an app that provides real-time traffic information about Israeli checkpoints in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. The author's account was banned for no reason at all on Google Play [2]. There was no means to get an appeal or a review.
What typically we see happening is that someone internally at these companies issues a ban for what we assume are ideological reasons. Then when someone looks into it there's no actual reason for the ban to have happened, and it sails through. We see similar thing with shadow banning on social media: someone gets hard flagged and their account is completely shut down, and then when someone looks into it, there was never a reason to do it in the first place.
[1] https://www.aweenrayeh.com/ [2] https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/thre...
if I get time,I will see if there is way to do something through adb, but I have already deleeted all media and media apps
and am prepared to trash the phone
also there are impossible to deleet pre loaded phone contacts
and my first choices(now changed) for sim settings, come back on each phone restart
nasty fashist garbage
- You: vote for people makings laws
- Companies: comply with legislations they are bound to comply with
- you: Censorship!
I understand that not everyone gets a chance to vote for laws in the world, but for a company to do business in any country you have to comply with regulations.
They never had a problem with the App Store removing Gab, Parler, or Infowars. It’s hard to take institutions like the ACLU seriously when they have such obvious bias. If the ACLU had taken a principled stance when the system was being used to take down things that they didn’t like, they would have been able to keep their legitimacy.