here’s the outline of what changed, pulled directly from their new docs:
• fully irrevocable license to all user content
arduino now owns perpetual, world-wide rights to modify, translate, redistribute, and commercially exploit anything users upload. including code, libraries, photos, designs, and comments.
non-revocable, non-expiring.
• surveillance-grade ai monitoring baked into the platform
their new “ai policy” explicitly allows arduino/qualcomm to monitor model usage, compute time, storage, logs, and user behavior for “compliance”, “government requests”, and undefined “protection.”
• a patent-infringement shield clause
users are banned from using the platform to identify or support patent claims against arduino or its affiliates. this is the opposite of open-source accountability.
• deletion that isn’t deletion
deleted content stays accessible internally, and possibly public, if arduino decides it’s needed for “investigation,” “legal compliance,” or if others interacted with it.
• minors’ data deeply fused into the qualcomm ecosystem
accounts for users under 18 feed directly into qualcomm’s global data infrastructure. includes identifiers, behavior, project data, classroom data, and device telemetry.
• explicit admission of “sale” and “sharing” of identifiers, geolocation, analytics
under u.s. disclosures, arduino acknowledges sharing browser data, ip addresses, location, and behavioral inferences with advertising and analytics partners.
• five-year public retention of usernames after account deletion
forum and project-hub posts stay public with username attached for years before being de-identified.
• military and government carve-outs
arduino prohibits most military use of its AI tools… except for DARPA, which gets a special exemption.
• termination triggers for trivialities
sharing login credentials or choosing a username they dislike can get your account wiped.
• cross-border data extraction to qualcomm subsidiaries
all user data is shared globally across the qualcomm group, processed in multiple jurisdictions.
the part that breaks any remaining illusion of “open source community platform” is section 8.2, which forbids translating, decompiling, or
reverse-engineering the platform unless arduino explicitly allows it. that was never the arduino ethos.
arduino didn’t simply update its terms today. it reflashed itself into a telemetry appliance with proprietary firmware and a smiley sticker.
I work closely with an educational institution that uses Arduino intensively - I'm trying to sound the alarm, and your points are incredibly useful; would you happen to have reference to the specific paragraphs/sentences in the agreement that each of your points reference?
People are basically telling me I'm too paranoid about this.
Echoing the comments there... this seems like a colossally dumb move on their part. Is there any way this doesn't just end with a hard fork and some new player taking over where Arduino left off?
I used to be interested in Arduino, but the hobbyist movement is nothing like it was in the early 2010s. In part, I think, we had amazing technologies (3D Printing! Arduino! CNC! Raspberry Pi!)… but not really that many amazing ideas on what to actually do with it.
What can I build with an Arduino that isn’t better, cheaper, faster, and more complete as a full product on Amazon? Almost nothing. When I’m staring at a screen 8 hours a day as a computer programmer already, my body screams for less screen time, not more. I’d rather learn Spanish or go skiing than start a FOSS project; and I don’t think I’m alone.
I understand there’s an artistic expression aspect to it… but I think at this point I’d rather learn photography or painting, actual art, for expression. Something normal people understand and appreciate. It’s too much of the same for me.
You really shouldn’t be using Arduino over STM32. Low end STM boards that are price matched with Arduino are not only more powerful by almost a magnitude, but also have an excellent debugging IDE.
The only thing to watch out for are 3V3 vs 5V but then again if you’re doing anything worthwhile you’ve got a stash of buffers, op amps and MOSFETs.
Doesn’t this only really affect actual Arduino brand products. There’s tons of just-as-good cheap knockoffs available. See Elegoo kits easily found on Amazon for example. The IDE is open source with the AGPL license.
Can’t we just cut Qualcomm out of the supply chain and keep going as normal without too much disruption? Doesn’t even feel like a hard fork is needed. Just don’t buy Qualcomm’s crap.
> users are now explicitly forbidden from reverse-engineering or even attempting to understand how the platform works unless Arduino gives permission.
I briefly looked at their IDE and CLI repos and GitHub claims they're AGPL and GPL 3 respectively. I didn't see a CLA when I looked at their contribution guide.
Am I missing something here? What basis do they have to restrict users' rights to reverse engineer the software?
This is not good. Qualcomm are [expletives] anyway, but we need more activity in the connected microcontroller space in the west.
Never have been a fan of the programming style encouraged by the Arduino SDK/API, so hopefully this demise will allow someone to enter the space with something that is actually competitive with the Espressif devices. Have a decent API and connectivity, at the same time, unfathomable stuff. The Picos are closest, but the connectivity situation is a mess.
I got upvoted then downvoted in the acquisition thread where I suggested this would happen. Anyone who thinks the old Arduino still exists is simply naive.
I was never a fan of the Maker Movement. While it did get people to tinker, there was always this massive gap between lighting up an LED and using EEPROM, JTAG debugging, interrupts, and even designing some of the more intricate circuit designs to pull of intermediate projects. I found that there were people who knew how to do that stuff and the rest just trying to get by.
The last time I used Arduino, I ended up just coding the bare metal out of necessity for the things I was trying to do. Some functionality of the chips was literally not accessible unless you break out of the sandbox. But then I wondered why we didn't just get people set up without shielding them so much from what it actually takes to do embedded development. Ultimately, the failure of the Maker Movement to me is that there is not an upgrade path. You start blinking LEDs and then what? Thus, lots of people end up being eternal beginners, which I don't think is helpful.
What are the alternatives for aspiring tinkerers now?
My wife (cybernetics engineer) and I are buying a 3D printer and planned getting an Arduino as an entry point. What should we do instead? What are the best communities and resources?
I'd like to use apps out there for model railroading - locomotive control and accessory automation, especially 3-rail. There is a LOT written for Arduino; I wonder if any other platforms come close. Someone mentioned some sort of Arduino emulation layer on top of ESP32.
55 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 74.4 ms ] threadThe fact that people can look into the source code and tinker with it made the platform everyone uses and now they're trying to capitalize on it.
• fully irrevocable license to all user content arduino now owns perpetual, world-wide rights to modify, translate, redistribute, and commercially exploit anything users upload. including code, libraries, photos, designs, and comments. non-revocable, non-expiring.
• surveillance-grade ai monitoring baked into the platform their new “ai policy” explicitly allows arduino/qualcomm to monitor model usage, compute time, storage, logs, and user behavior for “compliance”, “government requests”, and undefined “protection.”
• a patent-infringement shield clause users are banned from using the platform to identify or support patent claims against arduino or its affiliates. this is the opposite of open-source accountability.
• deletion that isn’t deletion deleted content stays accessible internally, and possibly public, if arduino decides it’s needed for “investigation,” “legal compliance,” or if others interacted with it.
• minors’ data deeply fused into the qualcomm ecosystem accounts for users under 18 feed directly into qualcomm’s global data infrastructure. includes identifiers, behavior, project data, classroom data, and device telemetry.
• explicit admission of “sale” and “sharing” of identifiers, geolocation, analytics under u.s. disclosures, arduino acknowledges sharing browser data, ip addresses, location, and behavioral inferences with advertising and analytics partners.
• five-year public retention of usernames after account deletion forum and project-hub posts stay public with username attached for years before being de-identified.
• military and government carve-outs arduino prohibits most military use of its AI tools… except for DARPA, which gets a special exemption.
• termination triggers for trivialities sharing login credentials or choosing a username they dislike can get your account wiped.
• cross-border data extraction to qualcomm subsidiaries all user data is shared globally across the qualcomm group, processed in multiple jurisdictions.
the part that breaks any remaining illusion of “open source community platform” is section 8.2, which forbids translating, decompiling, or reverse-engineering the platform unless arduino explicitly allows it. that was never the arduino ethos.
arduino didn’t simply update its terms today. it reflashed itself into a telemetry appliance with proprietary firmware and a smiley sticker.
the two documents: https://www.arduino.cc/en/privacy-policy/ https://www.arduino.cc/en/terms-conditions/
People are basically telling me I'm too paranoid about this.
New Arduino T&C: "user shall not [...] reverse-engineer the platform"
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45971039
What can I build with an Arduino that isn’t better, cheaper, faster, and more complete as a full product on Amazon? Almost nothing. When I’m staring at a screen 8 hours a day as a computer programmer already, my body screams for less screen time, not more. I’d rather learn Spanish or go skiing than start a FOSS project; and I don’t think I’m alone.
I understand there’s an artistic expression aspect to it… but I think at this point I’d rather learn photography or painting, actual art, for expression. Something normal people understand and appreciate. It’s too much of the same for me.
Can sympathise. When I worked in SW I avoided computer games and hobby coding like the plague. During bouts of unemployment I dived back in.
There's limits to being a glassy-eyed inert lump of protoplasm.
That's all you need to know. The old company no longer exists.
https://archive.ph/05KK2
It was nice while it lasted. RIP, Arduino.
The only thing to watch out for are 3V3 vs 5V but then again if you’re doing anything worthwhile you’ve got a stash of buffers, op amps and MOSFETs.
Can’t we just cut Qualcomm out of the supply chain and keep going as normal without too much disruption? Doesn’t even feel like a hard fork is needed. Just don’t buy Qualcomm’s crap.
I briefly looked at their IDE and CLI repos and GitHub claims they're AGPL and GPL 3 respectively. I didn't see a CLA when I looked at their contribution guide.
Am I missing something here? What basis do they have to restrict users' rights to reverse engineer the software?
The news describe an important shift, but just describe that it is, no need for "youtubefication" of titles here.
Never have been a fan of the programming style encouraged by the Arduino SDK/API, so hopefully this demise will allow someone to enter the space with something that is actually competitive with the Espressif devices. Have a decent API and connectivity, at the same time, unfathomable stuff. The Picos are closest, but the connectivity situation is a mess.
It takes a serious pair to "forbid reverse-engineering" on a platform aimed at tinkerers.
The last time I used Arduino, I ended up just coding the bare metal out of necessity for the things I was trying to do. Some functionality of the chips was literally not accessible unless you break out of the sandbox. But then I wondered why we didn't just get people set up without shielding them so much from what it actually takes to do embedded development. Ultimately, the failure of the Maker Movement to me is that there is not an upgrade path. You start blinking LEDs and then what? Thus, lots of people end up being eternal beginners, which I don't think is helpful.
My wife (cybernetics engineer) and I are buying a 3D printer and planned getting an Arduino as an entry point. What should we do instead? What are the best communities and resources?