There's a certain cinematic quality to this story... perhaps so much so that if it were to be included in an actual movie it would be seen as "too over the top" (i.e. CSI-like)
The source is electrical noise, but the solution of isolating the audio chain from the computer's USB means that in the future you might not notice when you've introduced another GPU memory bandwidth hog into your rendering loop.
Majority of sound cards up to late nineties used dual layer PCBs with terrible grounding strategies so even the ones bothering to condition power for analog section still audibly picked up interrupts, DMA transfers and CPU load.
That's a common problem. It's electrical noise in your signal. The only way I know how to completely eliminate it is using external DA/AD converters and connecting them to the PC using optical wires. We used MADI cards back in the studio back in the day.
> A picking texture is a very simple idea. As the name says, it’s used to handle picking in the game, when you click somewhere on the screen (e.g. to select an unit), I use this texture to know what you clicked on. Instead of colors, every object instance writes their EntityID to this texture. Then, when you click the mouse, you check what id is in the pixel under the mouse position.
Unrelated, but why? Querying a point in a basic quad tree takes microseconds, is there any benefit to overengineering a solved problem this way? What do you gain from this?
I have a similar issue with Genshin on PS5 when using the headphone jack in the controller with IEMs (didn't happen with a headset). It starts buzzing in my left ear when I open the game menu or open the map. On the map it only buzzes when I move the cursor, interestingly enough. I later noticed that the PSU coil whine coincided with the same events. Still no idea why it's like that
I remember 15+ years ago reading about certain laptops (Dell?) that you could 'hear' scrolling on websites, somehow the video chip was interfering with the sound chips. I had one at the time it was pretty weird.
It's funny that apparently "high performance" DAC doesn't handle the common issue every single USB audio device have to worry about - noisy power. From the vendor page (on MODI 5, no idea which one author has).
> SPECS THAT MATTER
> Distortion: inaudible; 100-1000x lower than any transducer (speaker or headphone) you're using
> Noise: inaudible; far below a typical headphone or speaker amp
I've been using optical connections for audio on my gaming PCs for decades now, exactly for this reason. Though wireless headphones will work just as well these days. Too many game developers mess this up (e.g. by having no frame limiter in the game menu) and many of them never fix these kinds of issues. Thanks for caring and fixing this in your game!
Which is why I consistently have told people to ensure that they pick a DAC which is powered independently if they intend to connect it via USB. Schitt Audio makes great stuff (it's what I have sitting on my desk right now) which is designed in that way, but there's no magic formula to beat physics when you physically power an audio device over a connection that is vulnerable to induced noise.
If you're trying to eliminate noise in your audio setup, the first and most important thing is having audio converted from digital to analog outside of the computer chassis itself (e.g. instead of a soundcard get a DAC). The second thing is to disconnect the power flows between the two systems (e.g. get a DAC which is separately powered). The third thing is to connect the DAC via a non-electrical connection so that the signal path is not vulnerable to noise in the environment between the two systems (e.g. use Toslink/optical and not USB/copper). The fourth thing is to condition the power input to DAC to remove transients (use an audio power conditioned, which does not need to be some grandiose thing, it's a bunch of capacitors).
Beyond that, there's not much you can do, after all there's EMI/RFI all of the time in the environment. If the DAC chassis is metallic and properly grounded, it should reject most, and the same should be true for the computer chassis, but there is always going to be /some/ incidental noise. As long as the noise floor is low enough that it's well below even quiet listening with amplification, you'll never hear it. But the default state of audio on most computer systems is pretty shit and people don't realize it, because they are mostly listening to Bluetooth earbuds (which at least provide no physical path for induced noise).
Moving my cursor makes an audible sound over my (builtin) audio card. I always blamed inductors somewhere (noisy power). This has never not been the case with any desktop with built-in audio I have owned over the past 25+ years
I have a Modi DAC I've used for years with several different gaming and development rigs and I've never had a problem like this. Sounds like a failing component, maybe a capacitor or regulator—the article author should contact Schiit.
I run into a similar problem. I have a power-hungry GPU (3080) and CPU (9800X3D).
All my audio equipment was on the same UPS (and therefore outlet) as my gaming PC.
The result is that any time a particularly stressful game would be open, I'd get buzzing in the speakers. (Especially if the framerate was at 360) If you ask audiophiles online they will swear up and down that a cheater plug, balanced cables, or optical isolation will fix it - that will not fix it. It's not a ground problem. It's not coming from the connection from the PC to the DAC - it's a power issue.
It seemed almost inconceivable to them that the problem was EMI from the computer making it into the equipment.
I temporarily got a double-conversion UPS (converts AC to DC to AC again) and housed the audio equipment on that instead (separate from PC) Lo-and-behold the noise was completely gone.
However, those UPS are extremely expensive, and far worse they're very loud because the fans run constantly.
So, I went with a simpler alternative. Just get a power strip and plug all the audio equipment into that on a different outlet. That reduces it massively. You can also get some strips that are designed to reduce EMI, but I haven't felt the need as of yet.
> It seemed almost inconceivable to them that the problem was EMI from the computer making it into the equipment.
I very much doubt that because audiophiles worries about a lot about both RFI, EMI and unwanted vibrations (I had one where I could hear a very faint metallic noise and it took me weeks to find the cause: a loose screw in the system ceiling a times vibrating a bit, depending on the song / passage in the song / frequencies and slightly touching a metal stud: horrible to diagnose but eventually I found it). For a start.
If you go on audiophile gear shops, you'll find power supply that, supposedly, prevent EMI.
Are RFI issues much more common? Sure. I had one in a previous place where I lived where simply lifting the speakers cable of the wooden floor would remove unwanted sounds: some kind of radio or TV program my cables would pick up. Then suddenly I stopped making fun of people lifting their speakers cable of the ground (but I'll still make fun of those paying $100 per little piece to lift their cables then buying 50 of these).
That said your comment is very interesting. But it also shows that, suddenly, power strips (or others) that try to deal with EMI, balanced cables (between various piece of audio gear), lifting $20 speakers cables off the ground, etc. don't look as idiotic as many make sound (ah ah). EMI, RFI and unwanted vibrations are a thing and they do ruin the listening experience.
When I upgraded my PC to the same CPU, I had the same problem of crackling/buzzing speakers on my USB DAC (externally powered, but from the same strip/outlet) when the system was under load.
I had a hunch it was power related because my PSU was nearly 10 years old and probably with just barely enough wattage. I bought a new one and all the buzzing went away.
IIRC when I was researching possible causes, beefy Ryzen CPUs were the most commonly mentioned in various forums and reddit threads.
Reminds me of my friend who has bought a shit load of 1.5v AA lithium batteries. The buck converters in those little bastards wreak havoc with every speaker around. His TV remote disconnects my Bluetooth headphones every time.
It depends some setups generate noise when you move a cabled mouse with a high resolution. I never measured it, but I would assume it is because of the high frequency signals of the mouse generates if it is actively used.
In that case more isolated cables and connections would probably help.
Since switching to the $10ish Apple USB-C to headphone adapter vs. just plugging in my 3.5mm headset into the computer, the buzzing when gaming completely stopped for me. Cheap solution.
I have this weird thing whenever I have headphones and open the Dota2 settings on my Mac, then I not only get buzzing but the overall sound quality plummets!
anyone else get big audio buzz relief using the extra, three prong cable on their normally two prong apple laptop charger? it felt as good as having my wisdom teeth out after i switched
I had this problem on my Oculus Rift box (remember those? it still runs beat saber just fine) and the solution was to solder some beefy capacitors on the end of unused power cables coming out of the power supply. If I recall correctly it was the 12V line that did it, which I didn't expect.
The buzz isn't completely gone but now I can't hear it unless I'm paying attention to it, which if I am playing beat saber, I'm not.
48 comments
[ 2.3 ms ] story [ 65.9 ms ] threadGood story, though.
Unrelated, but why? Querying a point in a basic quad tree takes microseconds, is there any benefit to overengineering a solved problem this way? What do you gain from this?
Thankfully doesn't happen with an external DAC.
I remember the BBC Micro doing the same thing when I was a little kid during certain operations, it always sounded to me like it was "thinking". :)
> SPECS THAT MATTER
> Distortion: inaudible; 100-1000x lower than any transducer (speaker or headphone) you're using > Noise: inaudible; far below a typical headphone or speaker amp
If you're trying to eliminate noise in your audio setup, the first and most important thing is having audio converted from digital to analog outside of the computer chassis itself (e.g. instead of a soundcard get a DAC). The second thing is to disconnect the power flows between the two systems (e.g. get a DAC which is separately powered). The third thing is to connect the DAC via a non-electrical connection so that the signal path is not vulnerable to noise in the environment between the two systems (e.g. use Toslink/optical and not USB/copper). The fourth thing is to condition the power input to DAC to remove transients (use an audio power conditioned, which does not need to be some grandiose thing, it's a bunch of capacitors).
Beyond that, there's not much you can do, after all there's EMI/RFI all of the time in the environment. If the DAC chassis is metallic and properly grounded, it should reject most, and the same should be true for the computer chassis, but there is always going to be /some/ incidental noise. As long as the noise floor is low enough that it's well below even quiet listening with amplification, you'll never hear it. But the default state of audio on most computer systems is pretty shit and people don't realize it, because they are mostly listening to Bluetooth earbuds (which at least provide no physical path for induced noise).
It works fine in some ports, it has a lot of background noise in others.
All my audio equipment was on the same UPS (and therefore outlet) as my gaming PC.
The result is that any time a particularly stressful game would be open, I'd get buzzing in the speakers. (Especially if the framerate was at 360) If you ask audiophiles online they will swear up and down that a cheater plug, balanced cables, or optical isolation will fix it - that will not fix it. It's not a ground problem. It's not coming from the connection from the PC to the DAC - it's a power issue.
It seemed almost inconceivable to them that the problem was EMI from the computer making it into the equipment.
I temporarily got a double-conversion UPS (converts AC to DC to AC again) and housed the audio equipment on that instead (separate from PC) Lo-and-behold the noise was completely gone.
However, those UPS are extremely expensive, and far worse they're very loud because the fans run constantly.
So, I went with a simpler alternative. Just get a power strip and plug all the audio equipment into that on a different outlet. That reduces it massively. You can also get some strips that are designed to reduce EMI, but I haven't felt the need as of yet.
I very much doubt that because audiophiles worries about a lot about both RFI, EMI and unwanted vibrations (I had one where I could hear a very faint metallic noise and it took me weeks to find the cause: a loose screw in the system ceiling a times vibrating a bit, depending on the song / passage in the song / frequencies and slightly touching a metal stud: horrible to diagnose but eventually I found it). For a start.
If you go on audiophile gear shops, you'll find power supply that, supposedly, prevent EMI.
Are RFI issues much more common? Sure. I had one in a previous place where I lived where simply lifting the speakers cable of the wooden floor would remove unwanted sounds: some kind of radio or TV program my cables would pick up. Then suddenly I stopped making fun of people lifting their speakers cable of the ground (but I'll still make fun of those paying $100 per little piece to lift their cables then buying 50 of these).
That said your comment is very interesting. But it also shows that, suddenly, power strips (or others) that try to deal with EMI, balanced cables (between various piece of audio gear), lifting $20 speakers cables off the ground, etc. don't look as idiotic as many make sound (ah ah). EMI, RFI and unwanted vibrations are a thing and they do ruin the listening experience.
Did you try replacing the PSU?
I had a hunch it was power related because my PSU was nearly 10 years old and probably with just barely enough wattage. I bought a new one and all the buzzing went away.
IIRC when I was researching possible causes, beefy Ryzen CPUs were the most commonly mentioned in various forums and reddit threads.
relevant xkcd https://xkcd.com/2651
In that case more isolated cables and connections would probably help.
I've been curious if this is some form of browser fingerprinting or just crappy speakers.
Also surprised there are barely any three prong hot plug adapters for the original charger.
And the internet if full of complaints on this matter: https://www.reddit.com/r/macbookpro/comments/1lfu1by/tinglin...
The buzz isn't completely gone but now I can't hear it unless I'm paying attention to it, which if I am playing beat saber, I'm not.