Show HN: Picknplace.js, an alternative to drag-and-drop (jgthms.com)

455 points by bbx ↗ HN
I find that the drag and drop experience can quickly become a nightmare, especially on mobile. To tap, hold, drag, and scroll, all at the same time, is both difficult to achieve, and prone to errors. I've always had in mind this 2-step approach, where picking an element and placing it were two separate steps. So I implemented this basic version to showcase my idea.

While it might take more time than a regular drag and drop, the benefit is for people who struggle with holding down the mouse button. With picknplace.js, you only need two clicks and some scrolling.

This solution is meant as an experiment, so I'm open to discussion.

118 comments

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The keyboard arrows to move works nice, but pressing enter to place appears to cancel it. I'm on firefox 145/mac os 15.6.1 if that matters.
On mobile this is a strong contender for the worst UX I've ever seen. The whole page moves, so you have to continously scroll back up after placing something.

If when in pick mode you would only scroll the list, I would be able to organize it much faster.

Scroll up to what? The whole list fits on screen for me
It's even worse on desktop. You have to scroll the entire screen (with mousewheel or arrow keys) to move the selection. I spent 30 seconds thinking it was bugged because the intuitive solution would be to click once, then simply click where you want to place it, but the "place" button only showed up on the one you already "picked". Fine idea, worst conceivable execution of UX I have ever seen.
Perhaps a combination of the two? Maybe standard drag-and-drop works as usual, but if you drag the item to some deadzone (like the side of the screen?), it will stick and you're free to scroll to where you want to put it.
Surely you're being hyperbolic. I've seen some atrocious UX before. Maybe what you mean is it's a good idea but the scrolling part should be list-based instead of page-based.
> On mobile this is a strong contender for the worst UX I've ever seen.

Pretty hyperbolic. First of all, this is a human and their work you’re talking about. A little respect goes a long way. Secondly, if this is the worst UX you’ve ever seen on mobile, I have to assume you’ve only been using the internet for the past week or so. This experience worked great for me on mobile Safari with no instructions required. You can’t say that for a lot of mobile UX including, I might add, Safari itself.

Huh. Worked great for me on mobile. iOS , latest Safari. And I thought the UX was pretty good too
Given I need to read the instructions to understand how to use this, It's a no go for me. I clicked it and I thought there was a bug because I could only place on the element I clicked.
I just tried it? And it did something that seemed weird but reasonable.
Regardless of the technical and UX merit of this project.

There are clearly a bunch of people who haven't used a new interface in perhapse years and are simply obtuse.

It took me less than 5 seconds to start using this one handed while I was pissing at a urinal, I mean that quite literally.

Yes, the users must be wrong.
wow! I love this solution. I agree on the pain of drag and drop on mobile.
how does it work with more complex layout not just vertical list of items, like those drag-and-drop for visualization UI: https://github.com/Kanaries/graphic-walker

you can see that there are different areas of draggable and droppable, on different directions.

This looks like an interesting concept!

> I find that the drag and drop experience can quickly become a nightmare, especially on mobile.

To me, drag and drop is only a nightmare on mobile. On desktop (using a mouse or trackpad), drag and drop actually works quite well.

Your design experiment reminds me of a recent talk of Scott Jenson, where he talked about how we just took over established UX patterns from desktop to mobile as is, and how that created all sorts of nuisances. (https://youtu.be/1fZTOjd_bOQ?t=1565)

If mobile drag&drop was implemented like you are suggesting from the very start, I actually might have preferred that over the situation we now ended up with.

One technical note on your implementation: on certain mobile browsers, there is a glitch where the UI can jump around as the browser dynamically slides top or bottom menu bars in and out.

> On desktop (using a mouse or trackpad), drag and drop actually works quite well.

Strong disagree here. It is intuitive, it is easy to demonstrate. But it's not really convenient, especially on a trackpad. I have enough mouse agility to play RTS games but not to do a reliable drag-and-drop, especially in a complicated case - across windows, with scroll, etc.

> On desktop (using a mouse or trackpad), drag and drop actually works quite well.

I have a feeling it makes RSI worse.

There are few things worse than a WIMP UI, touchpad, drag-and-drop with tiny targets, no clear visual feedback on what you actually did, and no undo.
I do not like this. I am still glad you shared it!
I repeatedly clicked pick and place and scratched my head for a minute. Wish there were a cue that I have to scroll.
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Viewing this on my phone and tapping the colored does nothing at all. Are they supposed to do something?
That's neat. Not sure if I would deploy it, as it will be hard to explain/teach people how to use it (as I see in other comments already), but I do see the value in it.

It solves the "drag and drop beyond what fits the screen" much better than you can with drag and drop, the awkward auto-scroll-on-nearing-the-edge-thing.

I would say, if you need to reorder many items, it gets a bit disorienting, the whole list moves as it's anchored to the item you are moving. Maybe there is a way to combine drag and drop where this kicks in if you go beyond the bounds of the visible area.

Also don't think this can work well with multiple axis/drop zones.

i was expecting when i click pick, that a "place" button would appear on each other item, or i could click on a row

OR possibly highlighting the spots between rows either with a line, or "place"

i think that's a much more intuitive & reliable ui, and would be an improvement on drag n drop. or a supplement to it

I was expecting that the line item would move with my mouse movement, not with my scroll.
Does not work with an indexed scrollwheel -- one click of the scroll wheel moves like 4 lines in your list, which seems to break the assumptions of your code. I get very strange behaviors, e.g. "pick" Five, scroll up and down, see swapping of Ten and Six during scroll. Then "place" results in Five being in the same place as before but Nine and Ten are swapped. Similar when using arrow keys.
I have a regular scroll wheel and it moves two items each time. Totally unusable for me.

(great idea, though)

Interesting concept but kind of unintuitive to figure out without reading about it first. Maybe you can tweak it?
This doesn’t appear to always work? Sometimes the placed item gets sent back to the original position even though it’s clearly being placed in a new spot (at least from what I can see visually). The UX idea is nice.
I don’t love it but really cool as something to test a new way.
Interesting.

Definitely see its potential for mobile pages.

On web it feels unintuitive to scroll. It feels more natural to drag and drop. Guess Trello boards have conditioned us.

But on web this control is way better.

Neat concept, but why scroll the entire page? It just ends up being distracting and confusing. Once you hit "pick" the scroll action should affect just the list and nothing else.
Ideas for usability: -Add a background behind the buttons when you have picked. -When having picked, display above the buttons a helper text like "Now scroll to change position".
Really nice, I found it highly intuitive on first use. Only thing I might suggest is making it more obvious what the "handle" button is that initiates the pick.
It’s been a long time since I’ve said “woah” out loud to something that wasn’t a science video.

This is much better on mobile and I suspect for accessibility.

Oh, lovely. Let's play with this problem. Variations to consider:

- Zoom out after drag start and back in when hovering over items.

- Drag to a staging area/clipboard.

I could see this being really useful for editing lists that are longer than the page. The example that immediately comes to mind is reordering a playlist on YouTube Music, which currently requires dragging to near the screen edge and trying to convince the list to scroll while you still hold on to the item you're trying to move.
Yessss this exactly! Moving songs up/down in large playlists would be fun with this concept. I wish that was a thing for music apps.