There's currently video circulating of the incident so be aware on social media. Here's the facts as I currently know:
* The woman shot and killed was a bystander, an American citizen
* The video shows the ICE agent just straight up killing her unprovoked, against the narrative they're currently trying to setup that she was a terrorist
I think it’s beyond undeniable at this point that America has slid definitively into fascism. The parallels with 1930’s Germany are just too obvious to deny.
It's the Fourth Reich. Venezuela has been invaded. Meanwhile Trump is threatening several other nations with similar. He has demonstrated that he will act on seemingly unhinged threats. He seems intent on taking over the Western hemisphere by invasion and coercion.
As a Canadian - south of the border terrifies me for what's coming next. Republicans have devolved into a NK style 'dear leader' group that is terrified of crossing Trump. 1930's Germany is here
There was a very similar private security guard case to this a few years ago where the security guard was yelling at someone to leave but then physically blocked their car. When the person moved, the security guard shot them.[]
He got roasted in court because he had given conflicting commands, and also because you can't put yourself in jeopardy just so you can shoot someone that's running away (police can but only fleeing felons). Life sentence.
This appears to me what happened here. She was committing a misdemeanor, and running away from the misdemeanor. Police explicitly asked her to move her vehicle. After she finally did so they stood in front of her to intentionally put themselves in jeopardy so they would have a reason to "defend themselves."
I have a feeling it will be a very long and dicey trial that ends up in a hung jury. Hopefully Minneapolis doesn't experience riots due to this; but it would prove the exception.
DHS secretary is calling this "domestic terrorism"... unbelievable. Everyone in the administration needs to be put on trial just like the Nazis in Nuremburg.
Also remember the rights reaction to Babbit (an insurrectionist) being shot at the J6 riot. She was a patriot hero for delaying election certification but people resisting ICE goons are domestic terrorists.
NBC News reports that this was contrary to the officer's training and DHS' own policies.
> ICE officers are trained to never approach a vehicle from the front and instead to approach in a “tactical L” 90-degree angle to prevent injury or cross-fire, a senior Department of Homeland Security official told NBC News.
> Officers are also instructed not to shoot at a moving vehicle and only to use force if there is an immediate risk of serious injury or death, the official said.
> ICE officers are also instructed that firing at a vehicle will not make it stop moving in the direction of the officer.
I've watched them all repeatedly. It's clear she was blocked in at the front, trying to pull out, and yielded, waving the ICE vehicles to go around front.
They instead got out, needlessly attempted to drag her from her vehicle, and she freaked out and tried to GTFO by turning right to avoid hitting any of them. She was shot and killed for it.
@dang I don’t know if this is a bug… but how is this not on the front pages? (I checked 2. 74 upvotes / 34 comments 2h old)
This is the type of thing that I sort of rely on HN to inform me about. Then other articles are seemingly killed as dupe which I guess would make sense if the original was visible.
I'm not sure if she was a constitutional observer but saw some comments saying it. Seems like a honorable job to do in todays climate especially if you are looking to take a more active role after this. [1]
HuffPost has obtained a video of a physician trying to give medical care to the woman shot and killed by ICE agents today, and not being allowed to go near her. The ICE agents claim there are medics on site, but witnesses scream that there are no medics presentExtensively reported
I’m not seeing this discussed very much but Minnesota governor Tim Walz has issued an order to prepare the state’s National Guard:
> “To Minnesotans, on the National Guard, they’re there to protect you and protect your constitutional rights,” Walz said. “These are our neighbors. They don’t wear masks. They don’t bust in from somewhere else. They’re not here to cause hassles to you or what we saw today, the tragedy.”
It sounds like he is calling on the National Guard to protect against ICE? Is this the first time a state has done this? I personally think it’s the right move but this is a serious matter to have one law enforcement agency called out to protect against another law enforcement agency. If true, this is a very big deal.
edit: More about Walz’s statement:
> In addition to readying the state’s National Guard, the governor said the State Bureau of Criminal Apprehension is investigating the incident, where masked agents were recorded approaching a vehicle in the middle of a Minneapolis street and an agent then fired shots into the car after it accelerated. Walz also said he activated the State Emergency Operation Center and members of the State Patrol’s Mobile Response Team.
> “From here on, I have a very simple message: We do not need any further help from the federal government,” Walz said. “To Donald Trump and [Homeland Security Secretary] Kristi Noem, you’ve done enough.”
Note that an update today was provided that the State Bureau of Criminal Apprehension is unable to do anything meaningful to investigate the incident because the FBI has backtracked on previous indications of cooperation and decided to deny them access to any evidence gathered in the course of the federal investigation (and obviously, federal agents controlled the actual crime scene, are the only ones who even have the identity of the agents involved—though what they revealed about background in attempting to burnish the image of the shooter without identifying them has led to a probable identification of the shooter—and control essentially the bulk of the physical evidence.)
When I first visited the US on business, HR conducted a training where the key point was that if stopped by police when you're in a car, don't get out of the car, they are trained to shoot first and ask questions later. Mid 90s.
Terrible training and horrible advice. Pennsylvania v Mimms requires you to step out of a vehicle upon LEO command. LEO does not need to provide any justification.
Also saying they are trained to shoot first and ask questions later is very hyperbolic. Police conduct over 30 million vehicle stops per year without incident.
Another day, another incident to justify the "tree of liberty".
ICE has a blank check on power overreach and qualified immunity for a domestic, dominating police state that WE DON'T NEED - and this is how they use it. Their actions are grotesque, and their words are worthless. They don't even honor what the judicial documents say that they claim to "enforce" - they flat-out ignore active asylum statuses, wait outdoors of immigration court hearings and check-ins, deport people to countries that they have a court order not to be deported to, and sometimes just go for citizens anyway - why not?
Speaking of "blank check", remember that ICE has an approved budget that's 3x the US Marine Corp, folks. This isn't a game anymore, this isn't playtime.
If you watch the slow-mo versions of the video people have posted you can see the ICE agent in question actually fired his weapon when his arm was fully extended away from his body still in front of vehicle as he had moved his body out of the impact zone of the front of her car. That's a terrible way to discharge a weapon even if you think you life is in danger. Seems far more likely it was a panic shot out of fear he was still in front of her not realizing he was no longer in danger.
Even if she had floored it at that point, and overal she was driving pretty slowly like a panicked mom might do, his arm would have just been struck by the windshield as she passed.
Militia on our streets without discipline or uniforms. That's what caused this tragedy.
The administration early on made the decision to allow/require ICE agents to wear whatever tactical gear they had, along with masks, and authorized/required an intentional lack of insignia.
The lack of a uniform and insignia is a real problem for ordinary Americans.
We're used to subjecting ourselves to authority. We're willing to obey commands, to cooperate, to assist, even, the officers in uniform. We are law-abiding and respectful, even to the lowly rent-a-cops in the mall.
That respect and cooperation and obedience absolutely depends on the recognition of the uniform, the badge, the symbol of authority displayed without doubt.
Someone in the administration got the bright idea to remove the symbol, the uniform, and decided that everyone should now bow down in respect to ununiformed masked militia roaming our towns in plain pickups and SUVs.
Someone thought it would be 'cool' or 'bad-ass'; they still do, I'll bet.
But the lack of uniform changes the psychology of enforcement, imho. It places less demand on the discipline of the anonymous tactical-fatigue wearer. Add the mask and you're almost there. Just need jack-boots, and you complete the transformation of officer (blessing) into thug (curse). There is no accountability, no real standard to live up to, when the uniform is gone, the mask is on, and you, as an ostensible agent of federal authority, you are Anonymous. [Yes, I would like to see ICE issue all field agents the Guy Fawkes mask. There's a uniform for you./s]
The lack of a uniform creates moments of doubt and uncertainty in a US citizen as well. We are comfortable complying with commands from an officer in uniform. But we're just not used to unpredictible swarms of masked and often angry militia pouring out of dark windowed F150s and barking out conflicting orders, surrounding us, yanking on our door handles, pulling a sidearm and pressing it against the glass of our windshield.
This tragic confrontation has to become the last. We cannot continue to tolerate roaming anonymous militia wearing disguises, conducting unpredictable federal enforcement raids on our otherwise peaceful streets, under the cover of anonymity. We need these officers to be a part of our community, to come out from behind their masks, to put on a uniform we can identify and associate with the real positive authority of a well-intentioned federal government. [Yes, prerequisite, I know, we first need a federal government that is well-intentioned.]
The biggest issue with all this is that ICE agents are in fact NOT police officers.
As a US citizen you DO NOT have to obey them in the same manner as a police officer and their rights to detain you are limited. Unless they were placing her under arrest she was free to leave and drive on. Most ICE agents lack the same training that your average state police officer would be forced to go through and thus are far more likely to do something stupid.
According to this NPR article, it currently is legal for ICE to detain you if you are visibly ethnic:
A federal court agreed, ruling that agents can't rely on factors such as race, speaking Spanish, wearing workman-like clothes, and location [...] to meet the standard of "individualized suspicion."
But in September, the Supreme Court paused that previous ruling, saying immigration agents can use those factors as reasonable suspicion to stop someone. (Legal proceedings continue on this case, however.)
The comment section here is an incredibly disturbing read, as to how many people are trying to justify this on-site extra-judicial execution. Let me start by saying that all this debate itself is meaningless to start with. No police or law and order agency is supposed to execute a civilian under these circumstances in any country. That should instantly be taken as a murder by an official empowered to prevent exactly that. As far as I understand, ICE is not even a law and order agency and has even less authority to do so.
The woman was occupying just one lane, which means there is no merit to the claim that she was obstructing them. And then no matter what she did next, the masked agents just walk up to her vehicle and try to pry open her door and pull her out. That is not what the police do. That's what the mafia does. Anybody facing such a harrowing situation is likely to panic and try to get away. A real officer would know that and won't shoot a panicked and unarmed person who has her hands on the wheel. Nothing about the circumstances suggest a regular confrontation with a law and order agency. It's a terror campaign. The people arguing the self-defense claim based on some flaky technicalities are psychopaths who lack any respect for human lives.
Whenever I mention Nazism in here to make a serious point, I get downvoted based on some unexplained moral outrage. It's either because 'it's so disturbing' or because people don't like the comparison with the worst that humanity has produced, or because I'm 'cheapening' (trivializing) the Holocaust and insulting its victims! Lame in my opinion, because there is no worse insult to its victims than to just let the horrors repeat!
Well, these outraged people can just stay outraged all they want, because I'm going say this in no uncertain terms. The US and HN has a real Nazi problem - at least in ideology, if not outright in spirit. And another Holocaust is not entirely out of the question either, because back in the past too, it wasn't that well known in public even among the German citizens until the allied forces overran the concentration camps. Who knows what is going on in the shadows right now, when so many people are comfortable with justifying murder, racism, invasions and imperialism?
You're too pretentious if you think that the horrors of the past can't repeat, because history sets precedents and shifts the Overton window. I know that HN is primarily a technical forum. But I seriously don't care if I lose my entire HN score for this, because what is the point of having any technology if it is to live like slaves under tyranny? This is one matter that well worth saying out loud, no matter how unpopular it is or how disturbing a suggestion it is.
Now let's look at the atrocities that ICE has committed so far. Intimidation/terrorizing, destruction of property, attacks on local law enforcement, kidnappings, child abuse, racial discrimination, denial of justice/due process, illegal warrantless arrests and detention, inciting riots, armed attacks on unarmed civilian protestors, attack on media personnel, attack on elected representatives (the last three constituting attack on democracy), human trafficking, torture and murder. It pretty much ticks all the agenda that the Gestapo used to have. Does Nazism sound all that improbable now? Governments around the world should be classifying ICE as a state-funded terrorist organization right now and sanctioning its leaders and members. They should be arrested and tried at Hague or Nuremberg if they step outside the US.
I'm deeply disturbed by how fast we forget the fragility and preciousness of human lives. And the worst is that we have historical examples showing us what will happen. And yet, we relentlessly justify their replay unconcerned?
I cannot agree more. It is really depressing and terrific reading so many people justifying all these violent acts. Is is inconceivable how we have come to normalize repression and violence against others.
It happens every time the police murder someone. These people can't see this for what it is - state-sponsored public execution.
It doesn't matter what she did, the punishment for no crime in the US is public execution. We have courts, law and order. Everyone is missing the forest for the trees.
58 comments
[ 2.4 ms ] story [ 74.6 ms ] thread* The woman shot and killed was a bystander, an American citizen
* The video shows the ICE agent just straight up killing her unprovoked, against the narrative they're currently trying to setup that she was a terrorist
He got roasted in court because he had given conflicting commands, and also because you can't put yourself in jeopardy just so you can shoot someone that's running away (police can but only fleeing felons). Life sentence.
This appears to me what happened here. She was committing a misdemeanor, and running away from the misdemeanor. Police explicitly asked her to move her vehicle. After she finally did so they stood in front of her to intentionally put themselves in jeopardy so they would have a reason to "defend themselves."
I have a feeling it will be a very long and dicey trial that ends up in a hung jury. Hopefully Minneapolis doesn't experience riots due to this; but it would prove the exception.
[] https://www.kptv.com/2023/05/24/private-security-guard-who-s...
Also remember the rights reaction to Babbit (an insurrectionist) being shot at the J6 riot. She was a patriot hero for delaying election certification but people resisting ICE goons are domestic terrorists.
> ICE officers are trained to never approach a vehicle from the front and instead to approach in a “tactical L” 90-degree angle to prevent injury or cross-fire, a senior Department of Homeland Security official told NBC News.
> Officers are also instructed not to shoot at a moving vehicle and only to use force if there is an immediate risk of serious injury or death, the official said.
> ICE officers are also instructed that firing at a vehicle will not make it stop moving in the direction of the officer.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/live-blog/minnesota-ice...
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1Gb_IkGVK7WvsTAXfMvQU...
I've watched them all repeatedly. It's clear she was blocked in at the front, trying to pull out, and yielded, waving the ICE vehicles to go around front.
They instead got out, needlessly attempted to drag her from her vehicle, and she freaked out and tried to GTFO by turning right to avoid hitting any of them. She was shot and killed for it.
This is the type of thing that I sort of rely on HN to inform me about. Then other articles are seemingly killed as dupe which I guess would make sense if the original was visible.
[1] https://copalmn.org/the-handbook-for-constitutional-observer...
HuffPost has obtained a video of a physician trying to give medical care to the woman shot and killed by ICE agents today, and not being allowed to go near her. The ICE agents claim there are medics on site, but witnesses scream that there are no medics presentExtensively reported
> “To Minnesotans, on the National Guard, they’re there to protect you and protect your constitutional rights,” Walz said. “These are our neighbors. They don’t wear masks. They don’t bust in from somewhere else. They’re not here to cause hassles to you or what we saw today, the tragedy.”
It sounds like he is calling on the National Guard to protect against ICE? Is this the first time a state has done this? I personally think it’s the right move but this is a serious matter to have one law enforcement agency called out to protect against another law enforcement agency. If true, this is a very big deal.
edit: More about Walz’s statement:
> In addition to readying the state’s National Guard, the governor said the State Bureau of Criminal Apprehension is investigating the incident, where masked agents were recorded approaching a vehicle in the middle of a Minneapolis street and an agent then fired shots into the car after it accelerated. Walz also said he activated the State Emergency Operation Center and members of the State Patrol’s Mobile Response Team.
> “From here on, I have a very simple message: We do not need any further help from the federal government,” Walz said. “To Donald Trump and [Homeland Security Secretary] Kristi Noem, you’ve done enough.”
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/5677541-walz-minnes...
Also saying they are trained to shoot first and ask questions later is very hyperbolic. Police conduct over 30 million vehicle stops per year without incident.
ICE has a blank check on power overreach and qualified immunity for a domestic, dominating police state that WE DON'T NEED - and this is how they use it. Their actions are grotesque, and their words are worthless. They don't even honor what the judicial documents say that they claim to "enforce" - they flat-out ignore active asylum statuses, wait outdoors of immigration court hearings and check-ins, deport people to countries that they have a court order not to be deported to, and sometimes just go for citizens anyway - why not?
Speaking of "blank check", remember that ICE has an approved budget that's 3x the US Marine Corp, folks. This isn't a game anymore, this isn't playtime.
Even if she had floored it at that point, and overal she was driving pretty slowly like a panicked mom might do, his arm would have just been struck by the windshield as she passed.
But you keep living in that delusion you’re so attached to.
The administration early on made the decision to allow/require ICE agents to wear whatever tactical gear they had, along with masks, and authorized/required an intentional lack of insignia.
The lack of a uniform and insignia is a real problem for ordinary Americans.
We're used to subjecting ourselves to authority. We're willing to obey commands, to cooperate, to assist, even, the officers in uniform. We are law-abiding and respectful, even to the lowly rent-a-cops in the mall.
That respect and cooperation and obedience absolutely depends on the recognition of the uniform, the badge, the symbol of authority displayed without doubt.
Someone in the administration got the bright idea to remove the symbol, the uniform, and decided that everyone should now bow down in respect to ununiformed masked militia roaming our towns in plain pickups and SUVs.
Someone thought it would be 'cool' or 'bad-ass'; they still do, I'll bet.
But the lack of uniform changes the psychology of enforcement, imho. It places less demand on the discipline of the anonymous tactical-fatigue wearer. Add the mask and you're almost there. Just need jack-boots, and you complete the transformation of officer (blessing) into thug (curse). There is no accountability, no real standard to live up to, when the uniform is gone, the mask is on, and you, as an ostensible agent of federal authority, you are Anonymous. [Yes, I would like to see ICE issue all field agents the Guy Fawkes mask. There's a uniform for you./s]
The lack of a uniform creates moments of doubt and uncertainty in a US citizen as well. We are comfortable complying with commands from an officer in uniform. But we're just not used to unpredictible swarms of masked and often angry militia pouring out of dark windowed F150s and barking out conflicting orders, surrounding us, yanking on our door handles, pulling a sidearm and pressing it against the glass of our windshield.
This tragic confrontation has to become the last. We cannot continue to tolerate roaming anonymous militia wearing disguises, conducting unpredictable federal enforcement raids on our otherwise peaceful streets, under the cover of anonymity. We need these officers to be a part of our community, to come out from behind their masks, to put on a uniform we can identify and associate with the real positive authority of a well-intentioned federal government. [Yes, prerequisite, I know, we first need a federal government that is well-intentioned.]
As a US citizen you DO NOT have to obey them in the same manner as a police officer and their rights to detain you are limited. Unless they were placing her under arrest she was free to leave and drive on. Most ICE agents lack the same training that your average state police officer would be forced to go through and thus are far more likely to do something stupid.
The woman was occupying just one lane, which means there is no merit to the claim that she was obstructing them. And then no matter what she did next, the masked agents just walk up to her vehicle and try to pry open her door and pull her out. That is not what the police do. That's what the mafia does. Anybody facing such a harrowing situation is likely to panic and try to get away. A real officer would know that and won't shoot a panicked and unarmed person who has her hands on the wheel. Nothing about the circumstances suggest a regular confrontation with a law and order agency. It's a terror campaign. The people arguing the self-defense claim based on some flaky technicalities are psychopaths who lack any respect for human lives.
Whenever I mention Nazism in here to make a serious point, I get downvoted based on some unexplained moral outrage. It's either because 'it's so disturbing' or because people don't like the comparison with the worst that humanity has produced, or because I'm 'cheapening' (trivializing) the Holocaust and insulting its victims! Lame in my opinion, because there is no worse insult to its victims than to just let the horrors repeat!
Well, these outraged people can just stay outraged all they want, because I'm going say this in no uncertain terms. The US and HN has a real Nazi problem - at least in ideology, if not outright in spirit. And another Holocaust is not entirely out of the question either, because back in the past too, it wasn't that well known in public even among the German citizens until the allied forces overran the concentration camps. Who knows what is going on in the shadows right now, when so many people are comfortable with justifying murder, racism, invasions and imperialism?
You're too pretentious if you think that the horrors of the past can't repeat, because history sets precedents and shifts the Overton window. I know that HN is primarily a technical forum. But I seriously don't care if I lose my entire HN score for this, because what is the point of having any technology if it is to live like slaves under tyranny? This is one matter that well worth saying out loud, no matter how unpopular it is or how disturbing a suggestion it is.
Now let's look at the atrocities that ICE has committed so far. Intimidation/terrorizing, destruction of property, attacks on local law enforcement, kidnappings, child abuse, racial discrimination, denial of justice/due process, illegal warrantless arrests and detention, inciting riots, armed attacks on unarmed civilian protestors, attack on media personnel, attack on elected representatives (the last three constituting attack on democracy), human trafficking, torture and murder. It pretty much ticks all the agenda that the Gestapo used to have. Does Nazism sound all that improbable now? Governments around the world should be classifying ICE as a state-funded terrorist organization right now and sanctioning its leaders and members. They should be arrested and tried at Hague or Nuremberg if they step outside the US.
I'm deeply disturbed by how fast we forget the fragility and preciousness of human lives. And the worst is that we have historical examples showing us what will happen. And yet, we relentlessly justify their replay unconcerned?
It doesn't matter what she did, the punishment for no crime in the US is public execution. We have courts, law and order. Everyone is missing the forest for the trees.
Yes, this is how it happened: good people standing by, doing nothing.