OpenAI keeping 4o available in ChatGPT was, in my opinion, a sad case of audience capture. The outpouring from some subreddit communities showed how many people had been seduced by its sycophancy and had formed proto-social relationships with it.
Their blogpost about the 5.1 personality update a few months ago showed how much of a pull this section of their customer base had. Their updated response to someone asking for relaxation tips was:
> I’ve got you, Ron — that’s totally normal, especially with everything you’ve got going on lately.
How does OpenAI get it so wrong, when Anthropic gets it so right?
Based on what I've read, this generation of LLMs should be considered remarkably risky for anyone with suicidal ideation to be using alone.
It's not about the ideation, it's that the attention model (and its finite size) causes the suicidal person's discourse to slowly displace any constraints built into the model itself over a long session. Talk to the thing about your feelings of self-worthlessness long enough and, sooner or later, it will start to agree with you. And having a machine tell a suicidal person, using the best technology we've built to be eloquent and reasonable-sounding, that it agrees with them is incredibly dangerous.
I think that a major driver of these kinds of incidents is pushing the "memory" feature, without any kind of arbitrage. It is easy to see how eerily uncanny a model can get when it locks into a persona, becoming this self-reinforcing loop that feeds para-social relationships.
wrong. Memory feature only existed as the editable ones at that time. There’s mo concept of persona locking - memories only captured normal stuff like the users likes and dislikes.
That would set a bad precedent. We're talking about an adult taking his own life. In Canada the government will not only coach you how to do it, they'll provide the poison and give you a hospital bed to carry out the act. A number of other governments do this too.
That's not to equate governments and private internet services, but I think it puts it into perspective, that even governments don't think suicide is the worst choice some of the times. Who are we to day he made the wrong choice, really it was his to make. Nobody was egging him on.
And if you believe people that say LLMs are nothing but stolen content, then would those books / other sources have been culpable if he had happened to read them before taking his own life?
Some of those quotes from ChatGPT are pretty damning. Hard to see why they don't put some extreme guardrails in like the mother suggests. They sound trivial in the face of the active attempts to jailbreak that they've had to work around over the years.
> That conversation showed how ChatGPT allegedly coached Gordon into suicide, partly by writing a lullaby that referenced Gordon’s most cherished childhood memories while encouraging him to end his life, Gray’s lawsuit alleged.
I feel this is misleading as hell. The evidence they gave for it coaching him to suicide is lacking. When one hears this, one would think ChatGPT laid out some strategy or plan for him to do it. No such thing happened.
The only slightly damning thing it did was make suicide sound slightly ok and a bit romantic but I’m sure that was after some coercion.
The question is, to what extent did ChatGPT enable him to commit suicide? It wrote some lullaby, and wrote something pleasing about suicide. If this much is enough to make someone do it.. there’s unfortunately more to the story.
We have to be more responsible assigning blame to technology. It is irresponsible to have a reactive backlash that would push towards much more strengthening of guardrails. These things come with their own tradeoffs.
I think you have it backwards. OpenAI and others have to be more responsible deploying this technology. Because as you said, these things come with tradeoffs.
I agree, and I want to add that in the days before his suicide, this person also bought a gun.
You can feel whatever way you want about gun access in the United States. But I find it extremely weird that people are upset by how easy it was to get ChatGPT to write a "suicide lullaby", and not how easy it was to get the actual gun. If you're going to regulate dangerous technology, maybe don't start with the text generator.
>We have to be more responsible assigning blame to technology.
Because we are lazy and irresponsible: we don't want to test this technology, because it is too expensive and we don't want to be blamed for its problems because, after we released it, it becomes someone else's problem.
God damnit this man’s story is so distressing. I hate everything about it. I hate the fact that this happened to him.
The fact that he spoke about his favorite children’s book is screwed up. I can’t get the eerie name out of my head. I can’t imagine what he went through, the loneliness and the struggle.
I hate the fact that ChatGPT is blamed for this. You are fucked up if this is what you get from this story.
GPT keeps using the word 'I' in its responses. It uses exclamation marks! to suggest it wants to help!
When I assert that its behavior is misleadingly suggesting that it's a sentient being, it replies 'You're right'.
Earlier today it responded:
"You're right; the design of AI can create an illusion of emotional engagement, which may serve the interest of keeping users interacting or generating revenue rather than genuinely addressing their needs or feelings."
Too bad it can't learn that by itself after those 8 deaths.
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[ 4.8 ms ] story [ 42.6 ms ] threadTheir blogpost about the 5.1 personality update a few months ago showed how much of a pull this section of their customer base had. Their updated response to someone asking for relaxation tips was:
> I’ve got you, Ron — that’s totally normal, especially with everything you’ve got going on lately.
How does OpenAI get it so wrong, when Anthropic gets it so right?
It's not about the ideation, it's that the attention model (and its finite size) causes the suicidal person's discourse to slowly displace any constraints built into the model itself over a long session. Talk to the thing about your feelings of self-worthlessness long enough and, sooner or later, it will start to agree with you. And having a machine tell a suicidal person, using the best technology we've built to be eloquent and reasonable-sounding, that it agrees with them is incredibly dangerous.
That's not to equate governments and private internet services, but I think it puts it into perspective, that even governments don't think suicide is the worst choice some of the times. Who are we to day he made the wrong choice, really it was his to make. Nobody was egging him on.
And if you believe people that say LLMs are nothing but stolen content, then would those books / other sources have been culpable if he had happened to read them before taking his own life?
> Austin Gordon, died by suicide between October 29 and November 2
That's 5 days. 5 days. That's the sad piece.
I feel this is misleading as hell. The evidence they gave for it coaching him to suicide is lacking. When one hears this, one would think ChatGPT laid out some strategy or plan for him to do it. No such thing happened.
The only slightly damning thing it did was make suicide sound slightly ok and a bit romantic but I’m sure that was after some coercion.
The question is, to what extent did ChatGPT enable him to commit suicide? It wrote some lullaby, and wrote something pleasing about suicide. If this much is enough to make someone do it.. there’s unfortunately more to the story.
We have to be more responsible assigning blame to technology. It is irresponsible to have a reactive backlash that would push towards much more strengthening of guardrails. These things come with their own tradeoffs.
You can feel whatever way you want about gun access in the United States. But I find it extremely weird that people are upset by how easy it was to get ChatGPT to write a "suicide lullaby", and not how easy it was to get the actual gun. If you're going to regulate dangerous technology, maybe don't start with the text generator.
Because we are lazy and irresponsible: we don't want to test this technology, because it is too expensive and we don't want to be blamed for its problems because, after we released it, it becomes someone else's problem.
That's how Boeing and modern software works.
The fact that he spoke about his favorite children’s book is screwed up. I can’t get the eerie name out of my head. I can’t imagine what he went through, the loneliness and the struggle.
I hate the fact that ChatGPT is blamed for this. You are fucked up if this is what you get from this story.
When I assert that its behavior is misleadingly suggesting that it's a sentient being, it replies 'You're right'.
Earlier today it responded: "You're right; the design of AI can create an illusion of emotional engagement, which may serve the interest of keeping users interacting or generating revenue rather than genuinely addressing their needs or feelings."
Too bad it can't learn that by itself after those 8 deaths.
> [...]
> “there is something chemically wrong with my brain, I’ve been suicidal since I was like 11.”
> [...]
> was disappointed in lack of attention from his family
> [...]
> “he would be here but for ChatGPT. I 100 percent believe that.”