These (and not just limited to elections here now) are exactly the same issues that come up when non-EU migrants want to do stuff in EU. And the argument the OP makes has always been my argument. Fine, you hate migrants, good for you. But what about other Europeans who are getting the short stick with your national rules? No one has a good answer for this.
Puerto Rico pays taxes to the U.S. government, yet its residents cannot vote in federal elections. Additionally, the Jones Act increases costs even more than on the mainland.
85% of Americans pay taxes to a federal government that they cannot vote for.
My vote is totally irrelevant. I've moved 3 states in my life. Never once has it mattered because of how we vote. My state will be blue. My congressional district will be blue. I might as well do nothing.
Thankfully I'm a dual citizen with Canada so my vote has mattered there at least part of the time.
So this isn't anything special.
I'd say the EU is in a far more democratic spot by this metric than the US.
You may have mobility but you are not a citizen of the host country, so therefore you should not have the right to dictate their laws. You are a welcome guest until you actually become a citizen (through whatever process they define).
One of the best arguments against immigration is that, if you allow people to move to your country, even as non-citizen guest workers, they will eventually demand political rights in your country using their physical presence in a democracy as a moral justification. In other words, the only way to keep foreigners from influencing the laws and norms you live under is to physically bar them from your polity entirely.
Plenty of US citizens are in a similar situation: namely those who are in territories that are not US States, like Puerto Rico. Some US nationals are not even US citizens: those from American Samoa carry US passports but are not considered citizens.
This really resonates with me. I have lived in Finland for 16 years and struggled with work-life balance whilst trying to learn one of the most difficult languages in the world. Unless you pass the language exam you can't apply for citizenship - no matter how long you've been here for.
And yet, the right-wing-ish coalition government is making hostile anti-immigration policies and increasing citizenship requirements - which I can't vote against.
I think you’re very unlikely to garner any sympathy here for living somewhere for 16 years without learning the language.
I also think it’s perfectly reasonable for a country to not allow someone who refuses to prioritise integration with the country to vote on loosening those restrictions. It seems the requirement is roughly equivalent to a B2 level.
I’m a bleeding heart leftie, pro migration, pro EU, and honestly I think visa renewals should come with language requirements. An initial visa sure, but after 2 years an a2 in the language should be achievable. There are definitely edge cases (do you require Spanish or Catalan in Catalonia), but if you can’t speak enough of the local
Language after 2 years to be able to get around, you’re not really trying.
I’m an Irish citizen who lives in the UK. I’m entitled to vote for the upper house in Ireland (Seanad) and in both Uk and Scottish general elections due to our “special arrangement”. I have no plans to apply for citizenship, nor to leave the UK.
Honestly, it’s an incredibly privileged thing to be able to do and I think of it every time I vote. I am an ardent supporter of free movement of people. I genuinely think that voting in GEs should be restricted to citizens of the country (and that my exemption is unfair). Without that distinction, what is the difference between a long term resident and a citizen? Why would you ever go through it.
The _citizens_ should vote for what country they want, and the residents (me) should decide do we still want to be a part of that world.
This is a person who can vote in Slovakian elections, and through those elections vote for their EU representatives, but is too lazy to.
You may have missed this, because it is buried under a ton of verbiage that makes this tiny number of nonvoters like a social problem. So when this person says:
> [D]espite strong attachment to the European Union, mobile Europeans are less likely to participate in European elections [...] because each member state has different procedures, deadlines, and often inadequate public information.
They are obscuring the fact that the only rules that they need to know are Slovakian rules, and that they don't bother.
> I also repeatedly missed the deadlines to apply for postal votes in Slovakia.
Ideal person not to be voting. Really thinks that wealthy Slovaks living in the Netherlands have something important to say about Brexit (populism bad!), and that people who are too lazy to vote in European elections can lecture anyone else about the utility of the EU. Such a coddled class.
Note that they can vote in local election (municipal and regional) and for the EU parliament, the article does mention this, but it is a bit hidden.
I think that Brexit illustrates exactly why you need to be a citizen for elections of that type. It seems unfair to let the large number of other European living in the UK have influence on whether or not the UK was to stay, as they are still guests. Same for government election, you are a valued and wanted guest, but you are still a guest.
The complaint, to me, has some value, because the EU countries are making it fairly hard to chance citizenship. On the one hand, they are also completely free to move, if they don't want to pay taxes to a government they can't vote for, on the other, ensuring that these people has the option to say: I'm planning on staying for a very long time, I provide value, I want to be able to vote, should be a priority.
As far as I know lots of EU countries don't allow double citizenship. This implies that, even when having the prerequisites, acquiring the new citizenship for the sake of voting also mean losing the old citizenship altogether. At least for me this is too much to ask. I am happy with my life in my new country of residence, but I am still very connected to my heritage.
On the other hand I would be quite happy to give up my _voting rights_ in the original country in exchange for local ones. I do understand that allowing double voting would give mobile citizens an excessive amount of weight, but letting each individual choose would seems quite reasonable to me.
And in any case, might the EU live long and prosper.
I don't understand the argument the author makes. The author admits missing deadlines to vote in the general elections at home. The author admits missing deadlines to register for EU elections due to a recent move.
I am an EU citizen, living in another EU country. I managed to vote in the most recent general elections at home. When it comes to the EU elections, I even have a choice: I could vote for MEPs in my country of residence or in my country of citizenship. If voting in my new country was really important to me, I could naturalize and vote in a general elections in my new country.
A requirement to be registered at a new place of residence isn't that unusual. When one moves to another state within the United States, one has to register to vote in that state. Many states require that you live in the state a certain period of time before being able to register to vote, so if you move a week before the election, you are out of luck in your new state. You could be better off voting by an absentee ballot in your old state before you move.
EU citizens generally can vote in municipal elections where they live. Cities and towns also provide services that are supported by tax payers.
> If Europe is to withstand rising populism and Euroscepticism, we must strengthen its democratic foundations. Allowing people to vote where they live would be a good start.
I like the gist of it but not sure how one would follow from the other. Populist tendencies can also manifest through voting preferences, can't they? Brexit happened via a voting preference. Just because mobile EU citizens vote, it doesn't necessarily mean they'll vote for who the author expect they'll vote for. So they are mostly orthogonal concerns in a way.
He says nothing about the language barrier that migrants face in the EU.
He went to The Netherlands where it's extremely easy for migrants to integrate: Not only is English widely spoken, but Dutch is also one of the easiest languages to read if you know English and/or German.
So it's unsurprising that he felt he understood enough of politics that he wanted to vote there.
If you're not a citizen, you can't vote for the national government. The solution: become a citizen. If you've lived somewhere long enough to lose track of your home country (legally at least), getting citizenship shouldn't be all that hard.
The voting pass handed to the author to vote on someone else's behalf clearly states the requirements. A Dutch passport, ID, or driver's license is required. Polling booths are run by volunteers and they have hard enough of a time already checking the validity of Dutch ID, adding 27 other forms of ID will only make it easier to bypass the electoral protections we have.
Schengen, the EU, and the EEA may have made working abroad exceptionally easy, but working abroad you're still a guest in another country. If you've lived somewhere long enough to forget to vote in your home country, maybe it's time to reevaluate what your home country really is.
I am tiny bit angry reading this. Does the author believe he can just come into my country and by the mere fact of breathing has a right to vote in my countries election? This is madness if you aren't a citizen you don't get to vote..
I don't know if paying taxes is a good prerequisite for voting. People travel and pay taxes to a lot of governments along the way. People from out of country may own vacation houses somewhere which represent a lot of property taxes, but are only there a few months out of the year. Should they get a vote? Probably not.
That said, there absolutely should be reasonable processes to allow you to vote in the country you live in. "Obtaining citizenship" sounds reasonable, but of course, not every country has reasonable way to obtain citizenship. The EU voting procedure sounds really onerous.
I kinda agree, we should allow people to vote in a country they live in and contribute to. There should be a reasonably difficult process where you show you have strong ties and commitment to the country and you get the voting rights. You should only have one at a time. We could call it a citizenship or something.
Jokes aside, I don't understand what they are asking for.
"Allowing people to vote where they live would be a good start."
After how long? Should I be able to vote in a foreign county if I move and work there for a month?
If anything, complain about specific citizenship process if it's unreasonable, but you have to respect that it's role of the citizens to define what are the rules.
29 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 37.5 ms ] threadFWIW: I am a non-EU migrant.
My vote is totally irrelevant. I've moved 3 states in my life. Never once has it mattered because of how we vote. My state will be blue. My congressional district will be blue. I might as well do nothing.
Thankfully I'm a dual citizen with Canada so my vote has mattered there at least part of the time.
So this isn't anything special.
I'd say the EU is in a far more democratic spot by this metric than the US.
And yet, the right-wing-ish coalition government is making hostile anti-immigration policies and increasing citizenship requirements - which I can't vote against.
I also think it’s perfectly reasonable for a country to not allow someone who refuses to prioritise integration with the country to vote on loosening those restrictions. It seems the requirement is roughly equivalent to a B2 level.
I’m a bleeding heart leftie, pro migration, pro EU, and honestly I think visa renewals should come with language requirements. An initial visa sure, but after 2 years an a2 in the language should be achievable. There are definitely edge cases (do you require Spanish or Catalan in Catalonia), but if you can’t speak enough of the local Language after 2 years to be able to get around, you’re not really trying.
Honestly, it’s an incredibly privileged thing to be able to do and I think of it every time I vote. I am an ardent supporter of free movement of people. I genuinely think that voting in GEs should be restricted to citizens of the country (and that my exemption is unfair). Without that distinction, what is the difference between a long term resident and a citizen? Why would you ever go through it. The _citizens_ should vote for what country they want, and the residents (me) should decide do we still want to be a part of that world.
You may have missed this, because it is buried under a ton of verbiage that makes this tiny number of nonvoters like a social problem. So when this person says:
> [D]espite strong attachment to the European Union, mobile Europeans are less likely to participate in European elections [...] because each member state has different procedures, deadlines, and often inadequate public information.
They are obscuring the fact that the only rules that they need to know are Slovakian rules, and that they don't bother.
> I also repeatedly missed the deadlines to apply for postal votes in Slovakia.
Ideal person not to be voting. Really thinks that wealthy Slovaks living in the Netherlands have something important to say about Brexit (populism bad!), and that people who are too lazy to vote in European elections can lecture anyone else about the utility of the EU. Such a coddled class.
I think that Brexit illustrates exactly why you need to be a citizen for elections of that type. It seems unfair to let the large number of other European living in the UK have influence on whether or not the UK was to stay, as they are still guests. Same for government election, you are a valued and wanted guest, but you are still a guest.
The complaint, to me, has some value, because the EU countries are making it fairly hard to chance citizenship. On the one hand, they are also completely free to move, if they don't want to pay taxes to a government they can't vote for, on the other, ensuring that these people has the option to say: I'm planning on staying for a very long time, I provide value, I want to be able to vote, should be a priority.
On the other hand I would be quite happy to give up my _voting rights_ in the original country in exchange for local ones. I do understand that allowing double voting would give mobile citizens an excessive amount of weight, but letting each individual choose would seems quite reasonable to me.
And in any case, might the EU live long and prosper.
I am an EU citizen, living in another EU country. I managed to vote in the most recent general elections at home. When it comes to the EU elections, I even have a choice: I could vote for MEPs in my country of residence or in my country of citizenship. If voting in my new country was really important to me, I could naturalize and vote in a general elections in my new country.
A requirement to be registered at a new place of residence isn't that unusual. When one moves to another state within the United States, one has to register to vote in that state. Many states require that you live in the state a certain period of time before being able to register to vote, so if you move a week before the election, you are out of luck in your new state. You could be better off voting by an absentee ballot in your old state before you move.
EU citizens generally can vote in municipal elections where they live. Cities and towns also provide services that are supported by tax payers.
I like the gist of it but not sure how one would follow from the other. Populist tendencies can also manifest through voting preferences, can't they? Brexit happened via a voting preference. Just because mobile EU citizens vote, it doesn't necessarily mean they'll vote for who the author expect they'll vote for. So they are mostly orthogonal concerns in a way.
it turns out, the ones who acted upon that are getting punished
He went to The Netherlands where it's extremely easy for migrants to integrate: Not only is English widely spoken, but Dutch is also one of the easiest languages to read if you know English and/or German.
So it's unsurprising that he felt he understood enough of politics that he wanted to vote there.
The voting pass handed to the author to vote on someone else's behalf clearly states the requirements. A Dutch passport, ID, or driver's license is required. Polling booths are run by volunteers and they have hard enough of a time already checking the validity of Dutch ID, adding 27 other forms of ID will only make it easier to bypass the electoral protections we have.
Schengen, the EU, and the EEA may have made working abroad exceptionally easy, but working abroad you're still a guest in another country. If you've lived somewhere long enough to forget to vote in your home country, maybe it's time to reevaluate what your home country really is.
one could say it's the mere fact of taxation and labour that gives them their rights...
That said, there absolutely should be reasonable processes to allow you to vote in the country you live in. "Obtaining citizenship" sounds reasonable, but of course, not every country has reasonable way to obtain citizenship. The EU voting procedure sounds really onerous.
Jokes aside, I don't understand what they are asking for. "Allowing people to vote where they live would be a good start." After how long? Should I be able to vote in a foreign county if I move and work there for a month?
If anything, complain about specific citizenship process if it's unreasonable, but you have to respect that it's role of the citizens to define what are the rules.