Haha — this was a fun day! It's honestly surprising how robust the RP2350 was under such extreme experimentation. Mike's write-up walks through pushing the core voltages far beyond stock limits and dry-ice cooling to see what the silicon could handle.
Credit where it's due: Mike is a wizard. He's been involved in some of our more adventurous tinkering, and his input on the more complex areas of our product software has been invaluable. Check out his GitHub for some really interesting projects: https://github.com/MichaelBell
Well, hope no one tries to deploy overlocked Raspberry Pi hardware in production... especially for kiosk style applications where they're in a metal box in the sun.
They're unstable enough at stock if taken outside an air conditioned room.
Both the RP2040 and the RP2350 are amazing value these days with most other electronics increasing in price. Plus you can run FUZIX on them for the UNIX feel.
Eh it's really not when you consider that the ESP32 exists. it has PCNT units for encoders, RMT LED drivers, 18 ADC channels instead of four, ULP coprocessor and various low power modes, not to mention wifi integrated into the SoC itself, not optional on the carrier board. And it's like half the price on top of all that. It's not even close.
The PIO units on the RP2040 are... overrated. Very hard to configure, badly documented and there's only 8 total. WS2812 control from the Pico is unreliable at best in my experience.
I really wish we would stop sticking wireless in every device. The spectrum is limited and the security concerns are just not worth it. And if you try to sell it, certifying will be RPITA even in US (rightfully so!). Just had to redesign a little Modbus RTU sensor prototype for mass production, noticed the old version used BT MCU. So I immediately imagined the certification nightmare - and the sensor is deployed underwater, it's not like BT will be useful anyway. Why? Quote "but how do we update firmware without a wireless connection"… How do you update firmware on a device with RS-485 out, a puzzle indeed. In all fairness, the person who did it was by no means a professional programmer and wasn't supposed to know. But conditioning beginners to wireless on everything - that's just evil. /rant
It wouldn't be surprising if the RP2350 gets officially certified to run at something above the max supported clock at launch (150MHz), though obviously nothing close to 800MHz. That happened to the RP2040[1], which at launch nominally supported 133MHz but now it's up to 200MHz (the SDK still defaults to 125MHz for compatibility, but getting 200MHz is as simple as toggling a config flag[2]).
The 300MHz, 400MHz, and 500MHz points requiring only 1.1, 1.3, and 1.5v and with only the last point getting slightly above body temperature, even with no cooling, seem like something that should maybe not be "officially" supported, but maybe mentioned somewhere in an official blog post or docs. Getting 3x+ the performance with some config changes is noteworthy. It would be interesting to run an experiment to see if there's any measurable degradation of stability or increased likelihood at failure at those settings compared to a stock unit running the same workload for the same time.
When pushing clock speeds, things get nondeterministic...
Here is an idea for a CPU designer...
Observe that you can get way more performance (increased clock speed) or more performance per watt (lower core voltage) if you are happy to lose reliability.
Also observe that many CPU's do superscalar out of order execution, which requires having the ability to backtrack, and this is normally implemented with a queue and a 'commit' phase.
Finally, observe that verifying this commit queue is a fully parallel operation, and therefore can be checked slower and in a more power efficient way.
So, here's the idea. You run a blazing fast superscalar CPU, well past the safe clock speed limits that makes hundreds of computation or flow control mistakes per second. You have slow but parallel verification circuitry to verify the execution trace. Whenever a mistake is made, you put a pipeline bubble in the main CPU, clear the commit queue, you put in the correct result from the verification system, and continue - just like you would with a branch misprediction.
This happening a few hundred times per second will have a negligible impact on performance. (consider 100 cycles 'reset' penalty, 100*100 is a tiny fraction of 4Ghz)
The main fast CPU could also make deliberate mistakes - for example assuming floats aren't NaN, assuming division won't be by zero, etc. Trimming off rarely used logic makes the core smaller, making it easier to make it even faster or more power efficient (since wire length determines power consumption per bit).
How do we know if a computation is a mistake? Do we verify every computation?
If so, then:
That seems like it would slow the ultimate computation to no more than rate rate at which they can be these computations can be verified.
That makes the verifier the ultimate bottleneck, and the other (fast, expensive -- like an NHRA drag car) pipeline becomes vestigial since it can't be trusted anyway.
It’s amusing to contemplate energy per cycle as one clocks higher and higher — the usual formula has the energy per cycle scaling roughly as voltage squared.
I recently turned turbo off on a small, lightly loaded Intel server. This reduced power by about a factor of 2, core temperature by 30-40C, and allowed running the fans much quieter. I’m baffled as to why the CPU didn’t do this on its own. (Apple gets these details right. Intel, not so much.)
What I love of the Pico overclock story is that, sure, not at 870Mhz, but otherwise you basically give for granted that at 300Mhz and without any cooling it is rock solid, and many units at 400Mhz too.
22 comments
[ 3.2 ms ] story [ 57.1 ms ] threadCredit where it's due: Mike is a wizard. He's been involved in some of our more adventurous tinkering, and his input on the more complex areas of our product software has been invaluable. Check out his GitHub for some really interesting projects: https://github.com/MichaelBell
Blatant plug: We have a wide range of boards based on the RP2350 for all sorts of projects! https://shop.pimoroni.com/collections/pico :-)
They're unstable enough at stock if taken outside an air conditioned room.
The PIO units on the RP2040 are... overrated. Very hard to configure, badly documented and there's only 8 total. WS2812 control from the Pico is unreliable at best in my experience.
I really wish we would stop sticking wireless in every device. The spectrum is limited and the security concerns are just not worth it. And if you try to sell it, certifying will be RPITA even in US (rightfully so!). Just had to redesign a little Modbus RTU sensor prototype for mass production, noticed the old version used BT MCU. So I immediately imagined the certification nightmare - and the sensor is deployed underwater, it's not like BT will be useful anyway. Why? Quote "but how do we update firmware without a wireless connection"… How do you update firmware on a device with RS-485 out, a puzzle indeed. In all fairness, the person who did it was by no means a professional programmer and wasn't supposed to know. But conditioning beginners to wireless on everything - that's just evil. /rant
It wouldn't be surprising if the RP2350 gets officially certified to run at something above the max supported clock at launch (150MHz), though obviously nothing close to 800MHz. That happened to the RP2040[1], which at launch nominally supported 133MHz but now it's up to 200MHz (the SDK still defaults to 125MHz for compatibility, but getting 200MHz is as simple as toggling a config flag[2]).
[1] https://www.tomshardware.com/raspberry-pi/the-raspberry-pi-p...
[2] https://github.com/raspberrypi/pico-sdk/releases/tag/2.1.1
I bet if you designed a custom board it could do a little better
Here is an idea for a CPU designer...
Observe that you can get way more performance (increased clock speed) or more performance per watt (lower core voltage) if you are happy to lose reliability.
Also observe that many CPU's do superscalar out of order execution, which requires having the ability to backtrack, and this is normally implemented with a queue and a 'commit' phase.
Finally, observe that verifying this commit queue is a fully parallel operation, and therefore can be checked slower and in a more power efficient way.
So, here's the idea. You run a blazing fast superscalar CPU, well past the safe clock speed limits that makes hundreds of computation or flow control mistakes per second. You have slow but parallel verification circuitry to verify the execution trace. Whenever a mistake is made, you put a pipeline bubble in the main CPU, clear the commit queue, you put in the correct result from the verification system, and continue - just like you would with a branch misprediction.
This happening a few hundred times per second will have a negligible impact on performance. (consider 100 cycles 'reset' penalty, 100*100 is a tiny fraction of 4Ghz)
The main fast CPU could also make deliberate mistakes - for example assuming floats aren't NaN, assuming division won't be by zero, etc. Trimming off rarely used logic makes the core smaller, making it easier to make it even faster or more power efficient (since wire length determines power consumption per bit).
If so, then:
That seems like it would slow the ultimate computation to no more than rate rate at which they can be these computations can be verified.
That makes the verifier the ultimate bottleneck, and the other (fast, expensive -- like an NHRA drag car) pipeline becomes vestigial since it can't be trusted anyway.
https://www.usenix.org/system/files/1309_14-17_mickens.pdf
You should build one in some logic simulator as its super interesting architecture.
I hate hobbysts 'cpus' being inside of FPGA. We should build real hardware instead.
I recently turned turbo off on a small, lightly loaded Intel server. This reduced power by about a factor of 2, core temperature by 30-40C, and allowed running the fans much quieter. I’m baffled as to why the CPU didn’t do this on its own. (Apple gets these details right. Intel, not so much.)
Eventually it will be seen as a feature.