i'm a little thrown, because the Wayland diagram doesn't feel quite right. the compositor does lie between the kernel and the apps, but IIRC the apps have their own graphics buffers from the kernel that they are drawing into directly. the compositor then composites them together. to me, that feels more like the kernel is at the center of the diagram here: the wayland compositor is between the kernel and the output / input.
i don't think it has a huge impact on the discussion here. but this is such a key difference versus X, that i think is hugely under-told: Wayland compositors all rely on lots of kernel facilities to do the job, where-as X is basically it's own kernel, has origins where it effectively was the device driver for the gpu, talking to it over pci, and doing just about everything. when people contrast wayland versus X as wayland compositors needing to do so much, i can't help but chuckle, because it feels like the kernel does >50% of what X used to have to do itself; it's a much simpler world, using the kernel's built-in abstractions, rather than being multiple stacked layers of abstractions (kernels + X's own).
it means that the task of writing the display-server / compositor is much much much simpler. it's still hard! but the kernel is helping so much. there's an assumed base of having working GPU drivers!
author appears to super know their stuff. alas the FOSDEM video they link to is not loading for me. :(
one major question, since this is a protocol, how viable is it to decompose the window management tasks? rather than have a monolithic window manager, does this facilitate multiple different programs working together to run a desktop? not entirely sure the use case, but a more pluggable desktop would be interesting!
> the compositor then composites them together. to me, that feels more like the kernel is at the center of the diagram here: the wayland compositor is between the kernel and the output / input.
It's also possible to use hardware planes to get the actual graphics device to composite for you directly from its video memory, effectively reducing latency to the lowest possible.
The fact that Wayland can't just substitute out pluggable WMs without changing a bunch of other unrelated infrastructure is IMO one of the biggest user-facing losses relative to X11. Anybody who is working to improve that is doing god's work as they say.
Honestly, probably the best Linux GUI stack would look like a root Wayland server (not running as root ofc), inside which are nested a per-user Wayland servers (which can be switched between rendering to a monitor or offscreen for a remote login), inside which is nested an X11 server (which is freed from having to care about hardware), inside which runs a normal window manager.
I'm currently using a fully vibe-coded, personal River window manager that works just how I want it to. I switched to it after I realized I couldn't do everything I wanted in Hyprland (e.g. tile windows to equal areas instead of BSP by default).
Simple example of how impactful this separation has been for me.
I encountered similar setbacks with hyprland (https://github.com/ArikRahman/hydenix), and I eventually wound up preferring scrollable tiling managers. I restarted from scratch with niri, and have found it to be a stable platform to develop against. Here's my current dotfiles (https://github.com/ArikRahman/dotfiles)
I've never used a system with Wayland (been on i3 for ~15 years) but every time a project like this comes up, I have to wonder why Wayland is even a thing. So many hoops to jump through for things that should be simple.
Sure, X11 has warts but I can make it do basically anything I want. Wayland seems like it will always have too much friction to ever consider switching.
There's a type of input called "DeviceEvent" which is a bit lower level than "Window event". It also occurs even if the window isn't "active".
Windows and X11 support this, but Wayland doesn't except for mouse movement. I noticed my program stopped working on Linux after I updated it. Ended up switching to Window Events, but still kind of irritating.
I've been on wayland since KDE had it available (like the KDE 5 days) because it offered fractional HiDPI scaling that wasn't buns. As a laptop user, it has been one of the best features of Wayland.
Furthermore, getting stuff like VRR on Wayland working is way easier than X.org. And, Wayland also supports HDR.
My reason for switching from i3 to sway (about 8 years ago) is DPI support. High DPI is a pain in Xorg, and essentially impossible with heterogeneous monitors.
The migration was a one way thing. Lots of things are smoother and simpler, and not having to ever again touch Xorg.conf has improved my quality of life.
To this day, I still have different monitors with different scale factors.
I'm with you. I haven't had major issues with X11 for a good couple of decades. Ever since I didn't have to manually edit xorg.conf, I forget when that happened.
Granted, my requirements were simple, a laptop and occasionally one external monitor, though the issues I did run into were related to graphics drivers and NVIDIA shenanigans, but not to X11.
Now that I'm on Wayland, I do feel that visuals are slightly more responsive and crisper, but honestly, it wasn't worth replacing a bunch of my programs, significantly altering my workflow, and dealing with numerous new issues I didn't have to deal with before.
Unfortunately, the momentum is now fully with Wayland, and it's only a matter of time until X11 stops being supported altogether. The XLibre project is a noble idea, but a few contributors can't maintain an entire ecosystem on their own.
Many theories. A simple one is that corporations wanted more control. See systemd's rise - not related to wayland as such, but to corporate-driven influence.
I am not saying all of the design is corporate-controlled. But a ton of propaganda is associated with how wayland was advertised, until some folks had enough with it and decided to stop buying the "xorg is dead" routine these corporations push on:
It will be interesting to see what will happen though. The GTK devs said they will help kill off xorg with GTK5. KDE also wants to kill xserver. It would be kind of cool if that would not happen - imagine if a non-corporate controlled ecosystem would emerge. Not likely to happen, but it would be a lot of fun. As well as more real competition with wayland. Wayland broke its biggest promise: that it is a viable alternative to the xorg-server. I don't want to lose any feature, so it is a drawback for me.
I completely agree. This feels like the typical “open-source developers rewriting something that already works well, then forcing it on people who never asked for it” kind of project.
It will take years to reach the feature set of X11. And for what? From my perspective as both a developer and a user, I see no tangible benefits.
On top of that, it breaks software I rely on professionally. Code that worked perfectly fine under X11.
Meanwhile, I can still build and run Windows programs I wrote 30 years ago on Windows 11.
From a user perspective it just works, the online issues are all hypotheticals or very specific scenarios. On wayland my computer just works, my displays can have different dpi scales, my video doesn't tear, and programs don't have full access to record the screen and keylog without asking permission.
Insightful article. I don't recall ever viewing an easy-to-follow lesson, tutorial or book for that matter that clearly explained the various components of a Linux Desktop environment. Always had to follow complicated and obscure guides to do this and that, when solving issues, but seldom did any explain their functions clearly.
To me, this is the first time Wayland feels like it's not a waste of time. The display server does not need to have the complexity of window managing on top the surface management. I certainly share the author's sentiment:
> Although, I do not know for sure why the original Wayland authors chose to combine the window manager and Wayland compositor, I assume it was simply the path of least resistance.
Although I'm not sure if it was the least resistance per se (as a social phenomenon), but just that it's an easier problem to tackle. Or maybe the authors means the same thing.
(That and the remote access story needs to be fixed. It just works in X11. Last time I tried it with a system that had 90 degree display orientation, my input was 90 degrees off from the real one. Now, this is of course just a bug, but I have a strong feeling that the way architecture Wayland has been built makes these kind of bugs much easier to create than in X11.)
Wasn't one of Wayland's key design features combining the window manager and compositor? I am not too familiar with its history but surely there have been presentations or papers about the Wayland designers' reasoning for doing so.
Lots of weird misinformation in the comments here. Wayland doesn't choose anything. It leaves the compositor to decide where to position a window and whether or not that window receives key presses or not. The program can't draw wherever it wants or receive system wide keystrokes or on behalf of another program. When appropriately implemented the screenshot system is built directly into the compositor. It's an API that let's a program request read access to a part of the screen and the compositor provides upon approval. It's much more secure that way and it works perfectly fine these days. Unfortunately not every compositor implements this.
A project that has a daemon run in the background as a root service and that can provide an appropriate shim to pass key strokes to anything you want.
And just to be clear the appropriate secure model is to have a program request to register a "global" hot key and then the compositor passes it to the appropriate program once registered. This is already a thing in KDE Plasma 6 and works just fine.
River was really great even before this split, so I'm very excited to see what happens in the space in the future. I switched to Niri while waiting for it to happen, and I'll probably switch back at some point.
If you were an Xmonad user I feel pretty confident in saying River is the Wayland WM for you.
I switched to niri a few months ago, and while I like it for the most part, it feels too... busy for my taste. It defaults to a bunch of animations and decorations, all of which I've turned off. I'm happy with my current setup (aside from Wayland quirks[1]), but river's design and simplicity are very appealing. It reminds me of the philosophy of bspwm/sxhkd which I used for years on X11.
I do need scrollable tiling now that I've tried it, and I'm happy that there are a couple of options to choose from with river.
[1]: Seriously, why does copy/pasting sometimes simply not work?? I often have to copy twice for it to succeed. It's not related to Xwayland -> Wayland apps, and viceversa, or with copying from closed windows, etc. I don't use nor want a clipboard "manager". I just want my clipboard to work consistently. I've read many reports of this same bug on different distros and DEs, and nobody has figured it out. It's infuriating that such a basic feature is half-broken in a project that is 17 years old now!
At this point, take all the lessons of wayland, plan everything in advance rather than incrementally deciding basic things like screenshotting and then build something new, superseding wayland so that power users like me and app developers will stop clinging to X. Right now I have no confidence in wayland and I know I'm not alone.
Traditionally, X11 didn’t have compositors, and didn’t need the extra round trip wayland exists to remove.
I wonder if there’s space for a project like xlibre (or x.org, if it were revived) to update the x11 protocol to fill whatever gap compositors were meant to fill.
For what it’s worth, I’ve been moving all my machines to lxde.
Apparently, I accidentally switched back to a compositor free desktop without noticing. High framerate, vsync/tear-free and high dpi work fine. So does fractional scaling, but I disable it.
Personally, I’d rather these hypothetical x11 devs focused on reverse engineering hdmi vrr (blocked by lawyers at the moment), and HDR / expanded color spaces.
Well, it only took 15 years to someone to fix one of many Wayland design flaws and start to make it feel usable.
Now it will take another 15 years for people to settle down in a set of common protocols instead of writing their own extension protocols and others 15 years for window managers to mature at the same level of the X11 window managers.
Then, people who think they know better than everyone else will throw Wayland away and start from zero all over again.
I'm currently using an old window manager that I dug out of the depths of history. 1.0 was released in 1985. 2.0 shortly after. 3.0 a few years later. But version 3.1 was when things really got good. It's been great ever since.
I don't get the frustration with wayland (the protocol) in the comments. This project shows that having a separate window manager was always possible. First we got wlroots as a library that did most of the heavy lifting, and now we got river as an even higher level abstraction.
Sure I agree that wayland (the project) could have provided these abstractions much earlier. But anyone else could have done it, too. We get all of this for free, so we shouldn't complain if other people don't do the work that we could do just as well.
> I don't get the frustration with wayland (the protocol) in the comments. This project shows that having a separate window manager was always possible.
Wayland is 17 years old. At this point, it's almost more frustrating to have one of its bigger architectural problems potentially addressed, precisely because it shows that it was always possible, and the people pushing for its adoption just... didn't bother doing the things that would make it easier to adopt.
As a 25 year user of Linux I love wayland since cutting over to it about 5 years ago. No tearing ever, which I always had to battle with with X. Certain developers that must interact with the Wayland stack will have to do more work now, and some projects may not still be viable, I get it. I've been following the comments in Linux forums for years. But users exist too, and here is one data point for you.
45 comments
[ 5.1 ms ] story [ 64.4 ms ] threadi'm a little thrown, because the Wayland diagram doesn't feel quite right. the compositor does lie between the kernel and the apps, but IIRC the apps have their own graphics buffers from the kernel that they are drawing into directly. the compositor then composites them together. to me, that feels more like the kernel is at the center of the diagram here: the wayland compositor is between the kernel and the output / input.
i don't think it has a huge impact on the discussion here. but this is such a key difference versus X, that i think is hugely under-told: Wayland compositors all rely on lots of kernel facilities to do the job, where-as X is basically it's own kernel, has origins where it effectively was the device driver for the gpu, talking to it over pci, and doing just about everything. when people contrast wayland versus X as wayland compositors needing to do so much, i can't help but chuckle, because it feels like the kernel does >50% of what X used to have to do itself; it's a much simpler world, using the kernel's built-in abstractions, rather than being multiple stacked layers of abstractions (kernels + X's own).
it means that the task of writing the display-server / compositor is much much much simpler. it's still hard! but the kernel is helping so much. there's an assumed base of having working GPU drivers!
author appears to super know their stuff. alas the FOSDEM video they link to is not loading for me. :(
one major question, since this is a protocol, how viable is it to decompose the window management tasks? rather than have a monolithic window manager, does this facilitate multiple different programs working together to run a desktop? not entirely sure the use case, but a more pluggable desktop would be interesting!
It's also possible to use hardware planes to get the actual graphics device to composite for you directly from its video memory, effectively reducing latency to the lowest possible.
Simple example of how impactful this separation has been for me.
hy3?
https://github.com/outfoxxed/hy3
(I'm an ex i3/now sway user and hy3 is the only way I can bear using hyprland)
Sure, X11 has warts but I can make it do basically anything I want. Wayland seems like it will always have too much friction to ever consider switching.
There's a type of input called "DeviceEvent" which is a bit lower level than "Window event". It also occurs even if the window isn't "active".
Windows and X11 support this, but Wayland doesn't except for mouse movement. I noticed my program stopped working on Linux after I updated it. Ended up switching to Window Events, but still kind of irritating.
Furthermore, getting stuff like VRR on Wayland working is way easier than X.org. And, Wayland also supports HDR.
The migration was a one way thing. Lots of things are smoother and simpler, and not having to ever again touch Xorg.conf has improved my quality of life.
To this day, I still have different monitors with different scale factors.
Granted, my requirements were simple, a laptop and occasionally one external monitor, though the issues I did run into were related to graphics drivers and NVIDIA shenanigans, but not to X11.
Now that I'm on Wayland, I do feel that visuals are slightly more responsive and crisper, but honestly, it wasn't worth replacing a bunch of my programs, significantly altering my workflow, and dealing with numerous new issues I didn't have to deal with before.
Unfortunately, the momentum is now fully with Wayland, and it's only a matter of time until X11 stops being supported altogether. The XLibre project is a noble idea, but a few contributors can't maintain an entire ecosystem on their own.
I am not saying all of the design is corporate-controlled. But a ton of propaganda is associated with how wayland was advertised, until some folks had enough with it and decided to stop buying the "xorg is dead" routine these corporations push on:
https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver
It will be interesting to see what will happen though. The GTK devs said they will help kill off xorg with GTK5. KDE also wants to kill xserver. It would be kind of cool if that would not happen - imagine if a non-corporate controlled ecosystem would emerge. Not likely to happen, but it would be a lot of fun. As well as more real competition with wayland. Wayland broke its biggest promise: that it is a viable alternative to the xorg-server. I don't want to lose any feature, so it is a drawback for me.
It will take years to reach the feature set of X11. And for what? From my perspective as both a developer and a user, I see no tangible benefits.
On top of that, it breaks software I rely on professionally. Code that worked perfectly fine under X11.
Meanwhile, I can still build and run Windows programs I wrote 30 years ago on Windows 11.
> Although, I do not know for sure why the original Wayland authors chose to combine the window manager and Wayland compositor, I assume it was simply the path of least resistance.
Although I'm not sure if it was the least resistance per se (as a social phenomenon), but just that it's an easier problem to tackle. Or maybe the authors means the same thing.
(That and the remote access story needs to be fixed. It just works in X11. Last time I tried it with a system that had 90 degree display orientation, my input was 90 degrees off from the real one. Now, this is of course just a bug, but I have a strong feeling that the way architecture Wayland has been built makes these kind of bugs much easier to create than in X11.)
However if you really really really wanna side step this you can look at keyd - https://github.com/rvaiya/keyd
A project that has a daemon run in the background as a root service and that can provide an appropriate shim to pass key strokes to anything you want.
And just to be clear the appropriate secure model is to have a program request to register a "global" hot key and then the compositor passes it to the appropriate program once registered. This is already a thing in KDE Plasma 6 and works just fine.
If you were an Xmonad user I feel pretty confident in saying River is the Wayland WM for you.
I switched to niri a few months ago, and while I like it for the most part, it feels too... busy for my taste. It defaults to a bunch of animations and decorations, all of which I've turned off. I'm happy with my current setup (aside from Wayland quirks[1]), but river's design and simplicity are very appealing. It reminds me of the philosophy of bspwm/sxhkd which I used for years on X11.
I do need scrollable tiling now that I've tried it, and I'm happy that there are a couple of options to choose from with river.
[1]: Seriously, why does copy/pasting sometimes simply not work?? I often have to copy twice for it to succeed. It's not related to Xwayland -> Wayland apps, and viceversa, or with copying from closed windows, etc. I don't use nor want a clipboard "manager". I just want my clipboard to work consistently. I've read many reports of this same bug on different distros and DEs, and nobody has figured it out. It's infuriating that such a basic feature is half-broken in a project that is 17 years old now!
I wonder if there’s space for a project like xlibre (or x.org, if it were revived) to update the x11 protocol to fill whatever gap compositors were meant to fill.
For what it’s worth, I’ve been moving all my machines to lxde.
Apparently, I accidentally switched back to a compositor free desktop without noticing. High framerate, vsync/tear-free and high dpi work fine. So does fractional scaling, but I disable it.
Personally, I’d rather these hypothetical x11 devs focused on reverse engineering hdmi vrr (blocked by lawyers at the moment), and HDR / expanded color spaces.
Now it will take another 15 years for people to settle down in a set of common protocols instead of writing their own extension protocols and others 15 years for window managers to mature at the same level of the X11 window managers.
Then, people who think they know better than everyone else will throw Wayland away and start from zero all over again.
Sure I agree that wayland (the project) could have provided these abstractions much earlier. But anyone else could have done it, too. We get all of this for free, so we shouldn't complain if other people don't do the work that we could do just as well.
Wayland is 17 years old. At this point, it's almost more frustrating to have one of its bigger architectural problems potentially addressed, precisely because it shows that it was always possible, and the people pushing for its adoption just... didn't bother doing the things that would make it easier to adopt.
wlroots is a library for a complete display server + window manager.
It does not separate the two.
I've been heard!