As a Canadian living in the US, all I can say is that was lame.
For starters, Canada has a neo-con government. Yes, they're somewhat to the left of the Republicans, but they've only just gotten a majority, so give them time.
Second, that page shows a picture of a beer from Unibroue. I've found that there are beers from that same brewery that you can't find in Canada (at least not easily) that are available in the US. And the selection of american craft beers make Canada's look like a joke. Plus beer is cheaper here.
Finally, and most importantly for people here, Canada's VC industry is non-existent. And the current government isn't really a fan of entrepreneurship unless it involves taking something out of the ground.
Plus the high today in sunny Silicon valley is expected to be in the 80s.
As a Canadian living in Canada, it seems to me that you're a bit out of touch.
For starters, Canada has a neo-con government. Yes, they're somewhat to the left of the Republicans, but they've only just gotten a majority, so give them time.
I'd say that our government is somewhat to the left of the US Democratic party. Sure, there's the occasional nutty MP who wants to limit abortion rights, bring back the death penalty, or abolish gay marriage, but there's always going to be a few of those, and they're in no way representative of government policy.
The Canadian neo-con government is based on short-term thinking. They prefer to deny climate science, burn oil as fast as they can, move to pass laws to "increase jobs" without a single thought for the future.
Simply, the Canadian Conservative party is evil. They have been found guilty of cheating in elections (see In and Out in 2006, and voter suppression via robocall allegations in 2011). They cancel long-term science research to focus on profit motives.
They are neocons not due to their social policies but due to their oil/finance focus at the expense of the health of their own people and all life on Earth.
I agree about Canada's current government, but we have a legacy of progressive policies that have given us, among other things, a working health-care system.
Having lived in the 'states as well, beer is an odd mention. It's not that Canada has bad beer, but California has great beer. I'd kill (well, figuratively) to get Moonlight Brewing's Death and Taxes up here. And as good as poutine is, I miss the Mission Burrito even more.
I prefer Canada's seasons to the SF peninsula's flatline. Comparing fall temperatures for one day in the fall avoids the fact that you'll still be wearing long sleeves some days in July.
And I think the VC industry has changed since you left, but the absence of VC money has bred some resilient, profitable companies like Freshbooks and Shopify rather than hundreds of Instagram clones.
As a Canadian who as also lived in the US I can say that thanks, it was my attempt at sattire :)
For starters, Canada has a neo-con government. Yes, they're somewhat to the left of the Republicans, but they've only just gotten a majority, so give them time.
As cperciva mentioned, I think you're also reading the headline news, our 'conservative' party is still more left than the Democratic party in the US.
Second, that page shows a picture of a beer from Unibroue. I've found that there are beers from that same brewery that you can't find in Canada (at least not easily) that are available in the US. And the selection of american craft beers make Canada's look like a joke. Plus beer is cheaper here.
You got me there, but I love Dieu De Ciel, and the number of microbrews coming up every few months in Toronto and other major cities is amazing. The scene is definitely evolving here.
Finally, and most importantly for people here, Canada's VC industry is non-existent. And the current government isn't really a fan of entrepreneurship unless it involves taking something out of the ground.
If you're building something interesting you're guaranteed to be able to pull financing from the same US based investors. Just look at Wattpad, Shopify et al. With the eased restrictions on foreign investment, this will only get better with time.
Plus the high today in sunny Silicon valley is expected to be in the 80s.
I was really hoping nobody pulled this out of the bag! Yeah we're already in the freezing this week :(
As another Canadian living in the US, I think your'e blowing things way out of proportion.
Canada's federal government is the most conservative it has been in decades - but it's still far from neoconservative (at least in the sense that we know it in the US). It is still far more liberal in almost every way from either the Democrats or the Republicans.
Not scientific by any means, but it's a clear expression of Canada's political zeitgeist. We are, as a whole, way further to the left than the US, even with the Conservative Party of Canada in charge.
Agreed on the VC industry though - and it's more than just seeking funding for your startup, but also strongly affects employees. It's hard to feel optimistic about going back to Canada for a cool startup gig when the cost of failure is doing IT "consulting" for IBM.
That's funny - but our current PM Stephen Harper isn't exactly a towering paragon of liberty and justice. He also has much more direct power over how the country works than Obama or Romney.
... although there's a great discussion to be had about free health care making it much easier to be a startup/entrepreneur/freelancer.
Actually the US had a surplus during the time period (1995-98) mentioned in that article. Then the US elected a party determined to shrink government small enough to drown it in a bathtub. Canada is behind on that, but catching up fast.
There are two major differences between the fiscal policies of the Republican & Conservative parties:
1. Harper wants to cut both spending & taxes, and at the moment is concentrating on cutting the spending. That's probably so he can deliver his tax cuts just before the next election. OTOH Bush cut taxes and increased spending.
2. Harper cut defense spending in his last budget.
Not that I'd ever vote for him, but at least he's behaving more rationally fiscally conservative than his American counterparts.
> "Depending on where you settle, cost of living is lower than SF or NYC"
Quite true, and your compensation will drop to match, and then some. I've done the math many times, my QOL in Manhattan is substantially higher than if I took a job in Vancouver or Toronto.
A lot of Canadians don't seem to fully grasp just how wide the salary gap is, even disregarding taxation differences. I've had cocky Torontonian recruiters contact me saying money is no object, and then go completely silent when they hear my current range.
Heck, one of my former employers ended up opening a dev office in Toronto and offered its Canadian expat devs a route back - but with "market adjustments" to salary.
> "quality of life is better"
Depends on how you measure it? If you're very much into the semi-urban lifestyle with easy access to nature, then sure, it's unequivocally better. There's more to QOL than being liberal and having universal health care (which admittedly is pretty awesome).
> "And if you are a Canadian living in the States, what the hell are you doing over there?"
If my currently amazing startup employer decides to become very lame (as startups tend to do as they age), I can throw a stone out the window and hit 5 equally cool startups looking to hire, working with talented, well-funded people. Call me again when Toronto and Vancouver can offer me that type of security.
The problem with the tech scene in Canada is that good jobs at good companies are very few and far between. And once you find yourself into such a position it is both highly coveted by everyone else around you, and you have few options at your disposal should shit go south. Very pro-employer, very anti-employee.
In the US my "backup" plan is working with more talented, well-funded people on some other thing. In Canada my "backup" plan involves drop ceilings and fluorescent lighting.
Quite true, and your compensation will drop to match, and then some.
The question is can you afford to purchase any property in Manhattan, even with the salary most may get? There are quite a few companies in Toronto (startups as well) paying over $120K for well versed engineers. I can't say it's the norm but it's not impossible to find.
But having lived in SF myself, I can tell you it all balances out if you're thinking of settling down in an area. The cost of housing, healthcare (if you're part of a startup that doesn't have full insurance coverage - only my partner who worked at one of those big companies you dislike was offered full coverage comparable to what you'd get in Canada, well slightly better really), etc all add up while that's adjusted for up here.
In the US my "backup" plan is working with more talented, well-funded people on some other thing. In Canada my "backup" plan involves drop ceilings and fluorescent lighting.
I would have agreed with you 2 years ago but more and more I see amazing companies take off here. And again I've lived in SF as well so I know very well what you're talking about and it's the main reason I suggest a lot of new grads to hang out down there for a few years before coming back up. It is a huge reason to still live down the states but there are a ton of cool well funded companies here as well.
Also when there's 300,000 Canadians living in San Francisco, most of that talent you're talking about is Canadian anyways!
> "The question is can you afford to purchase any property in Manhattan"
Nope, but I can't afford to buy in Vancouver on a Vancouver salary either, so that's rather besides the point. Toronto is possible, though one has to question the angle of "come to Toronto! You can own your own home in a city with a limited tech job market!" - I'll keep renting, thanks.
Now that I think of it, I don't think I can afford to buy downtown (Manhattan-equivalent) on a Torontonian software salary. I'd have to live further afield - and I can afford to buy in Brooklyn or Queens. So really the affordability argument is a wash.
> "I can't say it's the norm but it's not impossible to find."
I hear this refrain a lot from Canadians - everyone's "heard of" these magical fairy dust jobs but nobody can point at one.
Not to mention in NYC (and especially the Bay Area) $120K for even moderately experienced engineers is a matter of course. So why do I want to go back to Canada and claw my way at the incredibly rare $120K job with thousands of other hopefuls, when I can interview for most startups in NYC/SF/SV and get that kind of offer as a matter of course?
> "Also when there's 300,000 Canadians living in San Francisco, most of that talent you're talking about is Canadian anyways!"
And that's exactly why I can't move back. Not only would I be fighting a severely uphill battle in a substantially worse job market, for worse compensation, but the bulk of your local talent has already fled.
I'm not doubting the prowess of Canadian engineers (lest I doubt my own skills, I suppose), I'm doubting the realism for a software employee to move back to Canada. Even accounting for cost of living differences I'd be making less, my purchasing power substantially decreases, my job options narrow dramatically (two orders of magnitude? probably), and there are very few institutional employers worth working for as a backup. In SF/NYC I have Google, Facebook, Amazon, among many others. In Toronto I have TD, Royal, and Scotia.
> "And just to name a few aside from us"
I also hear this line of argument a lot. You know why people in SF/NYC don't list their local startups? Because it's impossible. It would take literally days just to recite the names from a list. Hell, in my building in Brooklyn there are more VC-funded startups than the list you just gave.
Which isn't to say that these startups aren't worthwhile - not at all. What I am saying is that the scale difference is so ridiculous wide that comparisons seem silly. "We have a handful of well-known successes" is a long, long, long, LONG way from "We have a sea of well-known successes and an order of magnitude more funded startups ready to hire".
I don't doubt that there are some very worthwhile startups in Toronto/Canada, and that they are good places to work. What I doubt is my place in that job market, where the number of good places to work (that can afford to pay me) can be exhaustively enumerated in my head.
I would like to top that. I'm Canadian and have been in SF for less than 3 months and I can see already all the advantages of being here while working the the tech industry. Even more when founding your own startup...
The value to have so many people connected to so many other people, with the culture of helping each other... Just that allows you to get jobs, funding or anything else an infinite time easier than anywhere else.
I really have no idea where in Canada we are supposed to have that; But it's definitely not in Toronto or Montreal :)
And Free Health care? Health Care is paid by any startup you'll work for now, and even if not, I'ld rather pay my own insurance for 300$/month and pay 30% taxes, than having health care and pay 55% of taxes on half the salary I would make :)
I still love Canada, I lived in Montreal for 10 years, don't get me wrong. My only point is that I personally think in that particular industry, we're better of in SF or NYC!
And just to name a few aside from us (EventMobi), within just Toronto (and surrounding area) there's Wattpad, Shopify, Freshbooks, 500px, Chango, Idee, Upverter, Vidyard, Uken Games, Wave Accounting, etc, etc
To be fair, the TTC in Toronto is very, very good, and IMO the second closest to supporting the fully-urban lifestyle on this continent.
Which may be a sad statement on this continent...
I'll say this: as someone who's lived in both Toronto and currently in NYC, if money were no object and employment a non-issue, Toronto will be a close second to NYC for me. The TTC doesn't go as far as the MTA, nor does it run around the clock, but it is highly competent and one won't have any trouble of maintaining a highly urban (and car-less) lifestyle with it.
19 comments
[ 3.1 ms ] story [ 50.5 ms ] threadFor starters, Canada has a neo-con government. Yes, they're somewhat to the left of the Republicans, but they've only just gotten a majority, so give them time.
Second, that page shows a picture of a beer from Unibroue. I've found that there are beers from that same brewery that you can't find in Canada (at least not easily) that are available in the US. And the selection of american craft beers make Canada's look like a joke. Plus beer is cheaper here.
Finally, and most importantly for people here, Canada's VC industry is non-existent. And the current government isn't really a fan of entrepreneurship unless it involves taking something out of the ground.
Plus the high today in sunny Silicon valley is expected to be in the 80s.
For starters, Canada has a neo-con government. Yes, they're somewhat to the left of the Republicans, but they've only just gotten a majority, so give them time.
I'd say that our government is somewhat to the left of the US Democratic party. Sure, there's the occasional nutty MP who wants to limit abortion rights, bring back the death penalty, or abolish gay marriage, but there's always going to be a few of those, and they're in no way representative of government policy.
Simply, the Canadian Conservative party is evil. They have been found guilty of cheating in elections (see In and Out in 2006, and voter suppression via robocall allegations in 2011). They cancel long-term science research to focus on profit motives.
They are neocons not due to their social policies but due to their oil/finance focus at the expense of the health of their own people and all life on Earth.
Having lived in the 'states as well, beer is an odd mention. It's not that Canada has bad beer, but California has great beer. I'd kill (well, figuratively) to get Moonlight Brewing's Death and Taxes up here. And as good as poutine is, I miss the Mission Burrito even more.
I prefer Canada's seasons to the SF peninsula's flatline. Comparing fall temperatures for one day in the fall avoids the fact that you'll still be wearing long sleeves some days in July.
And I think the VC industry has changed since you left, but the absence of VC money has bred some resilient, profitable companies like Freshbooks and Shopify rather than hundreds of Instagram clones.
For starters, Canada has a neo-con government. Yes, they're somewhat to the left of the Republicans, but they've only just gotten a majority, so give them time.
As cperciva mentioned, I think you're also reading the headline news, our 'conservative' party is still more left than the Democratic party in the US.
Second, that page shows a picture of a beer from Unibroue. I've found that there are beers from that same brewery that you can't find in Canada (at least not easily) that are available in the US. And the selection of american craft beers make Canada's look like a joke. Plus beer is cheaper here.
You got me there, but I love Dieu De Ciel, and the number of microbrews coming up every few months in Toronto and other major cities is amazing. The scene is definitely evolving here.
Finally, and most importantly for people here, Canada's VC industry is non-existent. And the current government isn't really a fan of entrepreneurship unless it involves taking something out of the ground.
If you're building something interesting you're guaranteed to be able to pull financing from the same US based investors. Just look at Wattpad, Shopify et al. With the eased restrictions on foreign investment, this will only get better with time.
Plus the high today in sunny Silicon valley is expected to be in the 80s.
I was really hoping nobody pulled this out of the bag! Yeah we're already in the freezing this week :(
Canada's federal government is the most conservative it has been in decades - but it's still far from neoconservative (at least in the sense that we know it in the US). It is still far more liberal in almost every way from either the Democrats or the Republicans.
The National Post had an interesting poll:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/11/04/canada-calls-the-u-s...
Not scientific by any means, but it's a clear expression of Canada's political zeitgeist. We are, as a whole, way further to the left than the US, even with the Conservative Party of Canada in charge.
Agreed on the VC industry though - and it's more than just seeking funding for your startup, but also strongly affects employees. It's hard to feel optimistic about going back to Canada for a cool startup gig when the cost of failure is doing IT "consulting" for IBM.
... although there's a great discussion to be had about free health care making it much easier to be a startup/entrepreneur/freelancer.
So while you take issue with your PM at least Canada is in a much better situation financially because all their sides worked together.
1. Harper wants to cut both spending & taxes, and at the moment is concentrating on cutting the spending. That's probably so he can deliver his tax cuts just before the next election. OTOH Bush cut taxes and increased spending.
2. Harper cut defense spending in his last budget.
Not that I'd ever vote for him, but at least he's behaving more rationally fiscally conservative than his American counterparts.
Quite true, and your compensation will drop to match, and then some. I've done the math many times, my QOL in Manhattan is substantially higher than if I took a job in Vancouver or Toronto.
A lot of Canadians don't seem to fully grasp just how wide the salary gap is, even disregarding taxation differences. I've had cocky Torontonian recruiters contact me saying money is no object, and then go completely silent when they hear my current range.
Heck, one of my former employers ended up opening a dev office in Toronto and offered its Canadian expat devs a route back - but with "market adjustments" to salary.
> "quality of life is better"
Depends on how you measure it? If you're very much into the semi-urban lifestyle with easy access to nature, then sure, it's unequivocally better. There's more to QOL than being liberal and having universal health care (which admittedly is pretty awesome).
> "And if you are a Canadian living in the States, what the hell are you doing over there?"
If my currently amazing startup employer decides to become very lame (as startups tend to do as they age), I can throw a stone out the window and hit 5 equally cool startups looking to hire, working with talented, well-funded people. Call me again when Toronto and Vancouver can offer me that type of security.
The problem with the tech scene in Canada is that good jobs at good companies are very few and far between. And once you find yourself into such a position it is both highly coveted by everyone else around you, and you have few options at your disposal should shit go south. Very pro-employer, very anti-employee.
In the US my "backup" plan is working with more talented, well-funded people on some other thing. In Canada my "backup" plan involves drop ceilings and fluorescent lighting.
The question is can you afford to purchase any property in Manhattan, even with the salary most may get? There are quite a few companies in Toronto (startups as well) paying over $120K for well versed engineers. I can't say it's the norm but it's not impossible to find.
But having lived in SF myself, I can tell you it all balances out if you're thinking of settling down in an area. The cost of housing, healthcare (if you're part of a startup that doesn't have full insurance coverage - only my partner who worked at one of those big companies you dislike was offered full coverage comparable to what you'd get in Canada, well slightly better really), etc all add up while that's adjusted for up here.
Depends on how you measure it?
You're right and I don't expect everyone to flock here. It makes sense for certain people, but I always like throwing out stats like these: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/economy/ec... as BS as they may be.
In the US my "backup" plan is working with more talented, well-funded people on some other thing. In Canada my "backup" plan involves drop ceilings and fluorescent lighting.
I would have agreed with you 2 years ago but more and more I see amazing companies take off here. And again I've lived in SF as well so I know very well what you're talking about and it's the main reason I suggest a lot of new grads to hang out down there for a few years before coming back up. It is a huge reason to still live down the states but there are a ton of cool well funded companies here as well.
Also when there's 300,000 Canadians living in San Francisco, most of that talent you're talking about is Canadian anyways!
Nope, but I can't afford to buy in Vancouver on a Vancouver salary either, so that's rather besides the point. Toronto is possible, though one has to question the angle of "come to Toronto! You can own your own home in a city with a limited tech job market!" - I'll keep renting, thanks.
Now that I think of it, I don't think I can afford to buy downtown (Manhattan-equivalent) on a Torontonian software salary. I'd have to live further afield - and I can afford to buy in Brooklyn or Queens. So really the affordability argument is a wash.
> "I can't say it's the norm but it's not impossible to find."
I hear this refrain a lot from Canadians - everyone's "heard of" these magical fairy dust jobs but nobody can point at one.
Not to mention in NYC (and especially the Bay Area) $120K for even moderately experienced engineers is a matter of course. So why do I want to go back to Canada and claw my way at the incredibly rare $120K job with thousands of other hopefuls, when I can interview for most startups in NYC/SF/SV and get that kind of offer as a matter of course?
> "Also when there's 300,000 Canadians living in San Francisco, most of that talent you're talking about is Canadian anyways!"
And that's exactly why I can't move back. Not only would I be fighting a severely uphill battle in a substantially worse job market, for worse compensation, but the bulk of your local talent has already fled.
I'm not doubting the prowess of Canadian engineers (lest I doubt my own skills, I suppose), I'm doubting the realism for a software employee to move back to Canada. Even accounting for cost of living differences I'd be making less, my purchasing power substantially decreases, my job options narrow dramatically (two orders of magnitude? probably), and there are very few institutional employers worth working for as a backup. In SF/NYC I have Google, Facebook, Amazon, among many others. In Toronto I have TD, Royal, and Scotia.
> "And just to name a few aside from us"
I also hear this line of argument a lot. You know why people in SF/NYC don't list their local startups? Because it's impossible. It would take literally days just to recite the names from a list. Hell, in my building in Brooklyn there are more VC-funded startups than the list you just gave.
Which isn't to say that these startups aren't worthwhile - not at all. What I am saying is that the scale difference is so ridiculous wide that comparisons seem silly. "We have a handful of well-known successes" is a long, long, long, LONG way from "We have a sea of well-known successes and an order of magnitude more funded startups ready to hire".
I don't doubt that there are some very worthwhile startups in Toronto/Canada, and that they are good places to work. What I doubt is my place in that job market, where the number of good places to work (that can afford to pay me) can be exhaustively enumerated in my head.
The value to have so many people connected to so many other people, with the culture of helping each other... Just that allows you to get jobs, funding or anything else an infinite time easier than anywhere else.
I really have no idea where in Canada we are supposed to have that; But it's definitely not in Toronto or Montreal :)
And Free Health care? Health Care is paid by any startup you'll work for now, and even if not, I'ld rather pay my own insurance for 300$/month and pay 30% taxes, than having health care and pay 55% of taxes on half the salary I would make :)
I still love Canada, I lived in Montreal for 10 years, don't get me wrong. My only point is that I personally think in that particular industry, we're better of in SF or NYC!
Which may be a sad statement on this continent...
I'll say this: as someone who's lived in both Toronto and currently in NYC, if money were no object and employment a non-issue, Toronto will be a close second to NYC for me. The TTC doesn't go as far as the MTA, nor does it run around the clock, but it is highly competent and one won't have any trouble of maintaining a highly urban (and car-less) lifestyle with it.