How long before there is a "we've detected your account has been used multiple times to re-setup a phone.. we've re-enabled the Google Nanny Safety mode.. also we've locked your google account just in case.. "
I mean other than hackers, who has needed to factory reset their phone more than once in a year you must be doing something shady... right right?
It's a very small concession. The high initial friction still means when someone comes to me with a problem and I tell them the solution is in F-Droid, they have to wait a day. Most give up and pick a different, less trustworthy solution from Google Play.
Not to mention that the "concession", such that it is, will presumably only work if you sign into a Google account. Presumably, this will require that you have Google Play Services installed.
Of course, many people who want to de-Google their phones won't want to do either. This is an attack on people who want to keep their lives separate from Google.
WTF win? Sounds like I will need a tracking google account because it can "carry over" when I "upgrade my phone"
"Google giving a concession" is no win.
WTF Concession? Why are we asking google for permission to use the devices we bought as they see fit?
Ok, google is doing what is best for them, abusing users. But the manufacturers are really to blame here because the devices are by default locked to what google and them decide. There is no Market Choice here.
You still seem to need a Google account to be able to use the hardware you just paid for. I don't have one, don't want one either. I've been using Android without Google for about 15 years now but will hold off on getting a new device until I'm sure I can continue using it without getting a Google account.
That's a name i've not heard in ages. That project was abandoned back in 2012 or so for lack of interest on all sides. The domain and site were sold back in 2014-ish to someone who blatantly misrepresented themselves as wanting to keep that piece of internet history online, but turned out to be a SEO operation which only wanted it because the domain had a decent reputation with Google. Lesson learned.
> Glad to see you're still alive and kickin' -- hope you are doing well, despite life's challenges.
What's the phone OS landscape now? What can someone who values their agency and wants FOSS choose?
* iOS - walled garden, so no
* Android:
* * with a Google account and Play Services - a bit less of a walled garden, but still no
* * Android without Google:
* * * GrapheneOS - root or adb not supported, so no
* * * LineageOS - (edit: root or adb not supported, so no - just learned) seems like a viable option although it seems like it depends on Google's development of Android and keeping it FOSS. How's the situation with security updates? Which phones would you recommend? I don't count Samsung or whatever crap as they're generally quite user-hostile.
* Linux - IIRC only PMOS supported FDE. Is that still the case? Are there are good Linux phones? I tried PinePhone a few years ago, but it was crappy. The OS also lacked basic features like new windows showing up inside the screen.
I had the first two iPhone models, but then moved to Android. So I've been an Android user for ~15 years. This will probably be the drop that makes me go back and try an iPhone again. If all phone OSes are going to be walled gardens, might as well go for the best one.
Android has always been lagging on usability/performance/polish, but I stuck with it for the openness and because it generally was first to tryi new things. I remember how people at work laughed at me when I got a Samsung Galaxy Note ("It's so big it looks like you have an iPad in your pocket"), yet a few years later every phone was that size. And now Android is leading with foldables. I love my OnePlus Open, but OnePlus seems to be pulling out from the Western market so further support is looking "iffy", so might as well get an iPhone.
I thought that even after the 24h wait, you will have to go through some annoying dialog to install (or maybe even update) anything not from the play store. So installing from F-droid will become an obnoxious process. Even worse if updates also become obnoxious. F-droid often wants to update several apps at once, so I click "update all". If that becomes multiple dialogs, that sucks.
How will the transfer occur? I'm assuming via Google account?
So this is vendor lock-in to an online account being sold as a way to "win" against a problem _created_ by said vendor? I would prefer a per-device wait time and I sincerely hope a Google account will not be a hard requirement. I didn't consider this initially.
Google is in the process of stealing the shirts from our backs and selling them back to us. Whoever wrote this article is drinking the kool-aid. This should NOT be presented as a positive thing. Some of us use Android without a Google account and would still like to sideload.
We hereby grant you a conditional right to install software on the device you "own", subject to conditions, and terms, but only under certain circumstances and only so long as it pleases us.
None of the comments here seem to discuss or even mention how this situation looks from googles perspective? I feel like HN readers are not aware of the scale of the problem they face or their motivation behind these changes.
If you look at the rate of growth of the call/text scam industry I think it's entirely possible that android owners are getting scammed out of more money than google themselves makes on the android platform as a whole. It's at least not that far off. Which doesn't even account for the humanitarian issues which they probably feel partially responsible for.
Their solution to every problem is to take away more control of the smartphones each time from the users who own them. Meanwhile, I have much less problems with scam and security issues and more freedom with software off FDroid. Makes you wonder if the actual problem is perhaps the one coming up with these solutions and their malevolent intentions behind a thin veil of laughable PR. Besides, I don't get people's habit of justifying trillion dollar corporations that can't seem to come up with any non-dystopian solutions.
Google's perspective is that they want full control on Android.
If they really care about scams, the first result when I search for chatgpt is a fake app with a fake logo. Maybe they should start by tackling the scams on the play store as the play store is the far west.
I don't find the assertion credible that people are getting scammed out of more money than the entire platform is worth. But given that Google does not make the revenue for Android public, what kind of numbers do you think you're talking about here?
Also, I think it's disingenuous to say that scams are predominantly powered by sideloading. I think the vast majority of the scams that are perpetrated use apps directly from the Play Store.
> ADB would be unaffected, and any power users who needed to install an app straight away could always connect their Android device to a computer and use ADB commands to manually install - no delay at all.
So in practice this won't be an issue for anyone tech-savvy who uses their Android device with apps outside of the Play Store, as they can simply install through the ADB mechanism via a separate device. It can even be done using WebUSB.
However, the many, many people worldwide who lack such technical knowledge, and are more susceptible to being scammed via malicious app installs because of it, are still protected by this new process Google are introducing.
Two steps forwards and one step backwards in the never-ending march to dytopia and you celebrate it as a show of your generosity and benevolence! I don't know who you're trying to fool. But I'm certainly interested in finding out, because that person must be both naïve and incredibly powerful if you think that it's worthwhile to pull off a public charade like this.
The first thing I do with any new phone is to enable developer mode. If it is weekend, I will use adb to sideload, if not, I will do it in next weekend as I don't have much time at workdays. In any case the sideloading will be done on the same day as now. Problem solved.
What is this steaming pile of shit? Android and Google are bending their customers over a table and ramming it into their asses.
If a device doesn't allow the user full control, then it isn't your device.
You are renting it from a duopoly that will bend over backwards to give all your data to the government! Also selling it to other corporations.
It is no excuse that an extremely small amount of ancient people over 85 who have never used technology in their life got scammed by some foreigner who worked them over for a full day or two.
That will happen regardless of whatever immoral restrictions are placed on our devices.
If you aren't smart enough to use the tech, don't use it.
Maybe Im a conspiracist but it seems there is a recent concerted effort to lock OS platforms down.
Just last week apple added an age verification system to uk iPhones. No legal req. as far as I can tell
56 comments
[ 3.6 ms ] story [ 72.5 ms ] threadThe horrors!
Of course, many people who want to de-Google their phones won't want to do either. This is an attack on people who want to keep their lives separate from Google.
WTF Concession? Why are we asking google for permission to use the devices we bought as they see fit?
Ok, google is doing what is best for them, abusing users. But the manufacturers are really to blame here because the devices are by default locked to what google and them decide. There is no Market Choice here.
> Google’s been working hard to relive everyone’s fears...
I somehow doubt there's a team at Google dedicated to roleplaying the nightmares of all living people :-D
When I saw your user name, I was like "I wonder if that's the C++ s11n guy", and sure enough, confirmed it by viewing your profile.
Glad to see you're still alive and kickin' -- hope you are doing well, despite life's challenges.
That's a name i've not heard in ages. That project was abandoned back in 2012 or so for lack of interest on all sides. The domain and site were sold back in 2014-ish to someone who blatantly misrepresented themselves as wanting to keep that piece of internet history online, but turned out to be a SEO operation which only wanted it because the domain had a decent reputation with Google. Lesson learned.
> Glad to see you're still alive and kickin' -- hope you are doing well, despite life's challenges.
Thank you and right back at you!
* iOS - walled garden, so no
* Android:
* * with a Google account and Play Services - a bit less of a walled garden, but still no
* * Android without Google:
* * * GrapheneOS - root or adb not supported, so no
* * * LineageOS - (edit: root or adb not supported, so no - just learned) seems like a viable option although it seems like it depends on Google's development of Android and keeping it FOSS. How's the situation with security updates? Which phones would you recommend? I don't count Samsung or whatever crap as they're generally quite user-hostile.
* Linux - IIRC only PMOS supported FDE. Is that still the case? Are there are good Linux phones? I tried PinePhone a few years ago, but it was crappy. The OS also lacked basic features like new windows showing up inside the screen.
* anything else?
Website: https://sailfishos.org/
Main forum: https://forum.sailfishos.org/
Recently on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47216037 / https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47311456 / https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41749296
Android has always been lagging on usability/performance/polish, but I stuck with it for the openness and because it generally was first to tryi new things. I remember how people at work laughed at me when I got a Samsung Galaxy Note ("It's so big it looks like you have an iPad in your pocket"), yet a few years later every phone was that size. And now Android is leading with foldables. I love my OnePlus Open, but OnePlus seems to be pulling out from the Western market so further support is looking "iffy", so might as well get an iPhone.
So this is vendor lock-in to an online account being sold as a way to "win" against a problem _created_ by said vendor? I would prefer a per-device wait time and I sincerely hope a Google account will not be a hard requirement. I didn't consider this initially.
Google is in the process of stealing the shirts from our backs and selling them back to us. Whoever wrote this article is drinking the kool-aid. This should NOT be presented as a positive thing. Some of us use Android without a Google account and would still like to sideload.
Modern handheld computing is such a shitshow...
As long as they keep it like this. The existence of the "only allow side-loading for 7 days" option is definitely worrying.
step 2: make situation tiiiny amount better
step 3: proclaim this as "a win"
...really?
It's really not. Try to realise that it's not meant to be Google's phone and they shouldn't be "letting" me do things
If you look at the rate of growth of the call/text scam industry I think it's entirely possible that android owners are getting scammed out of more money than google themselves makes on the android platform as a whole. It's at least not that far off. Which doesn't even account for the humanitarian issues which they probably feel partially responsible for.
If they really care about scams, the first result when I search for chatgpt is a fake app with a fake logo. Maybe they should start by tackling the scams on the play store as the play store is the far west.
Google choose an OS using a VM by design is insecure by default....
ITS NOT US USERS FAULT!
Also, I think it's disingenuous to say that scams are predominantly powered by sideloading. I think the vast majority of the scams that are perpetrated use apps directly from the Play Store.
> ADB would be unaffected, and any power users who needed to install an app straight away could always connect their Android device to a computer and use ADB commands to manually install - no delay at all.
So in practice this won't be an issue for anyone tech-savvy who uses their Android device with apps outside of the Play Store, as they can simply install through the ADB mechanism via a separate device. It can even be done using WebUSB.
However, the many, many people worldwide who lack such technical knowledge, and are more susceptible to being scammed via malicious app installs because of it, are still protected by this new process Google are introducing.
If a device doesn't allow the user full control, then it isn't your device.
You are renting it from a duopoly that will bend over backwards to give all your data to the government! Also selling it to other corporations.
It is no excuse that an extremely small amount of ancient people over 85 who have never used technology in their life got scammed by some foreigner who worked them over for a full day or two.
That will happen regardless of whatever immoral restrictions are placed on our devices.
If you aren't smart enough to use the tech, don't use it.