In the U.S. at least the incentives are perverse. Probably what would actually move the needle is a test trial with results showing it's more cost and resource effective
> It's usually more dangerous for women to give birth lying down, so why do they? It's all because of a Frenchman who decided it was more convenient – for men.
The first paragraph itself makes me not want to read further.
This article mixes the science with unnecessarily gendered language. It turns "a lying down position helps the doctor" to "men decided women should be on their backs" and "one pervert king liked watching women give birth, therefore somehow that's why".
Can't we just focus on the scientific advantages and not try to shoehorn sexism into everything?
90% of the article is about the scientific advantages. You've chosen to fixate on the "sexism" part which is, as other commenters pointed out, mainly there to explain why things are done this way today at all. I don't think it's the article that's the problem.
> This article mixes the science with unnecessarily gendered language. It turns "a lying down position helps the doctor" to "men decided women should be on their backs" and "one pervert king liked watching women give birth, therefore somehow that's why".
Looking more into the history of it, I find the "gendered language" to instead be important factual context. It was also not the author who wrote about the king or other "gendered language" things but instead quotes from a birth center founder and a uni professor.
Also, in the article it says "They can thank a French man named François Mauriceau". The King was a possible influence but not "one pervert king liked watching women give birth, therefore somehow that's why". The article says nothing about "a lying down position helps the doctor".
Mauriceau, who wrote a book "that helped establish obstetrics as science"[0], thought of pregnancy as illness, and that it would be "more convenient for the male physician attending". This is an important tidbit, as the article continues, "(there was already a movement emerging to dispense of midwives and instead have male surgeons present at births)."
The only problem with the "gendered language" is not explaining it further, and probably where the immediate jump to thinking it's "sexism" comes from.
At that time "man-midwives", or people with medical education and the same educational requirements as a surgeon, decided "midwifery" was a great side hustle and created a movement to push traditional midwives out of the birthing process by saying the job required a medical degree, that only men could get. Since men had no idea what the natural process for child birth was, unlike midwives who probably went through it themselves, they decided that having a woman lying down was less work for the people attending. This happened specifically because they were male. The females were pushed out of the birthing process at this time. It went against everything that women had for millennia been doing. It's absolutely important to point that out when trying to give background on why -- all of a sudden -- this natural process was perverted. I don't know how else they could put it other than, it was more convenient (and profitable) for men at the time. And propagated because one guy, who thought of it as an illness, decided he knew better and other doctors decided to listen to him.
I don't think it's shoehorned in this case, it's scientific to also look at the historical context and causes.
The article tries to explain two things, what scientifically are the pros/cons of the position, but also tries to explain why it's the default position that is used in most hospitals and have been for a long time now, and if it's true that it's due to either convenience to the men (at the time) physicians, or weird pleasure of the King, than in both cases it would have been "for men".
That said, I'll grant you it doesn't seem to really know what caused the back position to become predominent, it seems more to only mention two possible cause of many more and leaves much to be desired in a thorough root cause, and so it's probably partially thrown in just for better engagement with the article :p
> Can't we just focus on the scientific advantages and not try to shoehorn sexism into everything.
Why are you trying to destroy journalism ? The guy is trying to make a point and he needed some "metaphors". If he only presents scientific facts, the article will be short and boring. /s
Maybe this is a UK problem? Or the author just doesn't have kids? (and has no experience?)
German hospital beds for giving birth are at a 45 degree angle, which to me looked like a good compromise between "the mother can safely take a nap when she is tired" and "gravity will help you". Also, they have these thingys to put your legs up, so the overall posture is pretty close to squatting. (But with a back rest to prevent you from falling over if you're sleepy.) And modern German hospitals also have a bathtub with handrails to hang from above. And they have chairs with a hole in them. There's like a lot of options to choose from. But the nurses said that, statistically, most women choose the 45-degree-bed anyway. My guess would be because it looks the most comfortable.
As a woman it will be neat/cute to watch YC men discuss this one. If anyone is really curious how this happened in American (and spread) I highly recommend the book “Born in the USA” by Marsden Wagner.
TL;DR men saw money/opportunity in stealing women’s confidence in their natural and intuitive ability to give birth, built up tools and laws around it, and now we are stuck with a high caesarean AND fatality rate even despite this “progress.”
I went to school to be a hospital midwife until I discovered what a sad racket it is. No wonder we also have high rates of postpartum depression.
19 comments
[ 4.5 ms ] story [ 41.3 ms ] threadThe first paragraph itself makes me not want to read further.
https://www.worldhistory.org/img/c/p/1200x627/18720.jpg
The mother appears to be sedentary, rather than supine. I doubt I would have noticed that detail had I not read the article.
Can't we just focus on the scientific advantages and not try to shoehorn sexism into everything?
Looking more into the history of it, I find the "gendered language" to instead be important factual context. It was also not the author who wrote about the king or other "gendered language" things but instead quotes from a birth center founder and a uni professor.
Also, in the article it says "They can thank a French man named François Mauriceau". The King was a possible influence but not "one pervert king liked watching women give birth, therefore somehow that's why". The article says nothing about "a lying down position helps the doctor".
Mauriceau, who wrote a book "that helped establish obstetrics as science"[0], thought of pregnancy as illness, and that it would be "more convenient for the male physician attending". This is an important tidbit, as the article continues, "(there was already a movement emerging to dispense of midwives and instead have male surgeons present at births)."
The only problem with the "gendered language" is not explaining it further, and probably where the immediate jump to thinking it's "sexism" comes from.
At that time "man-midwives", or people with medical education and the same educational requirements as a surgeon, decided "midwifery" was a great side hustle and created a movement to push traditional midwives out of the birthing process by saying the job required a medical degree, that only men could get. Since men had no idea what the natural process for child birth was, unlike midwives who probably went through it themselves, they decided that having a woman lying down was less work for the people attending. This happened specifically because they were male. The females were pushed out of the birthing process at this time. It went against everything that women had for millennia been doing. It's absolutely important to point that out when trying to give background on why -- all of a sudden -- this natural process was perverted. I don't know how else they could put it other than, it was more convenient (and profitable) for men at the time. And propagated because one guy, who thought of it as an illness, decided he knew better and other doctors decided to listen to him.
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/François_Mauriceau
I don't think it's shoehorned in this case, it's scientific to also look at the historical context and causes.
The article tries to explain two things, what scientifically are the pros/cons of the position, but also tries to explain why it's the default position that is used in most hospitals and have been for a long time now, and if it's true that it's due to either convenience to the men (at the time) physicians, or weird pleasure of the King, than in both cases it would have been "for men".
That said, I'll grant you it doesn't seem to really know what caused the back position to become predominent, it seems more to only mention two possible cause of many more and leaves much to be desired in a thorough root cause, and so it's probably partially thrown in just for better engagement with the article :p
Why are you trying to destroy journalism ? The guy is trying to make a point and he needed some "metaphors". If he only presents scientific facts, the article will be short and boring. /s
We're not meant to do anything. It's not like we were consciously designed with a purpose in mind. Do whatever you want.
German hospital beds for giving birth are at a 45 degree angle, which to me looked like a good compromise between "the mother can safely take a nap when she is tired" and "gravity will help you". Also, they have these thingys to put your legs up, so the overall posture is pretty close to squatting. (But with a back rest to prevent you from falling over if you're sleepy.) And modern German hospitals also have a bathtub with handrails to hang from above. And they have chairs with a hole in them. There's like a lot of options to choose from. But the nurses said that, statistically, most women choose the 45-degree-bed anyway. My guess would be because it looks the most comfortable.
TL;DR men saw money/opportunity in stealing women’s confidence in their natural and intuitive ability to give birth, built up tools and laws around it, and now we are stuck with a high caesarean AND fatality rate even despite this “progress.”
I went to school to be a hospital midwife until I discovered what a sad racket it is. No wonder we also have high rates of postpartum depression.
Childbirth was extraordinaly dangerous. 6-8 births per woman and a 1-2% chance of dying per birth for the majority of history.
We have no idea what that was like. Rates today are ~0.013%.