> And the presence of lower-cost alternatives can force non-Chinese brands to have to compete, rather than sitting on their laurels and gathering profits from expensive land yachts as the competition’s prices are inflated by tariffs. This is why the UK is getting Honda’s super cool Super-N, and the US isn’t.
The Honda Super-N EV will also be released in Australia, New Zealand, and other countries in Southeast Asia that were also British colonies: this decision has nothing to do with tariffs and everything to do with left-hand-drive vs. right-hand-drive.
Not quite. The UK govt has a rolling target of how many EVs are sold as a proportion of all vehicles. The manufacturers get "fined" £15k per ICE car sold over the target. The targets are ramping up rapidly - 22% in 2024, 28% in 2025, 33% in 2026, etc, reaching 80% (AFIAK, keeps changing) in 2030. There's various trading mechanisms in place and what not so it's a bit more complicated than this.
So it's far better to sell EV below cost (Chinese or not) to get more sold than have to a pay £15k for an ICE car.
The Chinese manufacturers are arguably at double advantage here as they have more BEV to sell so it's far easier for them meet the targets, and they can 'sell' the excess to the Western manufacturers (and further subsidise their EVs!).
I'm not personally against it, I got a brand new EV on a lease recently for close to free after all the tax advantages, and it's not like the Western manufacturers didn't have time to prepare...?
It's a shame that the UK isn't making their own EVs. It's a nation with a long tradition of manufacturing and a working class hungry for opportunities.
Both Labour and the Conservative parties seem to have resigned the nation to only being a financial hub.
Unlike the EU and the US, the UK doesn't have any major car companies anymore, so there's less of an incentive for them to apply tariffs on Chinese imports.
Meanwhile Ford’s CEO said that if Chinese EVs are allowed into USA it will destroy the US automakers.
He is not even hiding the fact US automakers make a more expensive inferior product, but that US consumers should not be allowed have the superior one.
"thanks to Chinese competition". More like anti-competitive practices. They can force down Chinese wages to keep labor costs down. They can require companies involved in component technologies to share their IP in order to do business in China, then replicate it and subsidize the hell out of it to push them not just out of China, but out of business globally. Then subsidize the whole final vertically integrated manufacturing of the end product so it's all cheaper and harder to compete with.
Not very free market. It's basically military and intelligence budget combined. If you can hurt auto manufacturing, you further consolidate manufacturing inside China. Then if you can get people to pay for you to spy on them through their own cars, that's well spent intelligence budget. If you reduce the portion of global manufacturing outside of China, you reduce the amount of manufacturing that can quickly pivot to wartime production like we saw during World War 2.
I'm glad that we still have sane enough people in the US that we ban these obvious and transparently bad things. It wasn't that hard to see free trade died.
Hopefully people don't still think that China's green energy initiatives are about the climate. Whatever you think about those initiatives, don't let that blind you to the legitimate questions around China's motivations.
The treatment of our betters regarding "nudged" electrification is borderline misanthropic.
For people with a garage or a driveway who can charge at home, EVs are overwhelmingly a better option. The problem is that large swathes of the population are outside of that and you're making their lives miserable by punishing ICE car ownership.
Meanwhile, adoption numbers are thrown about ignoring that for those in optimal conditions, adoption is already very high and cannot grow much more. While for those particularly misaligned with the strengths of EVs, it will often be so painful to own one they will resist with everything they have, and in many cases they will have to admit defeat and stop driving altogether. Which I guess the government will also be content with. But it will take some time.
> The problem is that large swathes of the population are outside of that and you're making their lives miserable by punishing ICE car ownership
I think that's the plan - force adoption and double down on the misery so that people forcefully invest into building infrastructure that otherwise wouldn't have.
In other words, you're synthesizing demand. It would be extremely interesting to see how it works out! In my limited experience, these synthetic initiatives explode in costs because it lets grifters, scammers and arbitragers defraud the synthetic demand side (due to the lack of a real free market system which is naturally self calibrating and managing).
One thing that I wonder about - unlike in the U.S. where gas is cheap, my understanding is that it's around $10/gal around most of the E.U. right now? If so, what's stopping people from running towards EVs naturally?
- Is it just the lack of charging infrastructure?
- Is it because most people in the E.U. live in dense areas where it's hard to setup charging infrastructure?
- Is it because most people in the E.U. live in dense areas where public transportation is cheap on a unit "per head" basis making local governments hesitate to invest in charging infrastructure directly?
- Is it that over-regulation in the E.U. make it extremely difficult to build charging infrastructure in the first place?
From a U.S. perspective, I would imagine that most of the U.S. (especially rural and suburban US) would switch to EVs overnight if Chinese EVs were allowed to flood the market. A lot of cities in the U.S. are accommodating literally golf carts on their streets so a $10k brand new Chinese EV that you could plugin is likely to sell like hotcakes.
we're not in the EU anymore but yep, our petrol and diesel prices are not far off those of France or the Netherlands
right now, petrol goes for ~£1.5 per litre and diesel for £1.90
that is converted to US gallons and US currency, $7.67 for petrol (gasoline) and $8.99 for diesel
> From a U.S. perspective, I would imagine that most of the U.S. (especially rural and suburban US) would switch to EVs overnight if Chinese EVs were allowed to flood the market. A lot of cities in the U.S. are accommodating literally golf carts on their streets so a $10k brand new Chinese EV that you could plugin is likely to sell like hotcakes.
Suburban, sure. I'm not sure about rural, esp in the colder areas, because it takes significant investment to deploy the amount of energy you would need to heat vehicles and still have range, so it would take a bit longer.
The main reason the market is not being taken over by cheap Chinese EVs, is that despite the best efforts from our government to destroy the ICE car industry, it still is a MUCH better product for certain niches of the market that are quite significant. So you keep punishing those people for no good reason, while the people who are a perfect fit for EVs already have them.
Meanwhile policy is all over the place with new taxes for EVs specifically paid by the mile because they are heavy and they don't pay enough road tax, and they also don't pay petrol tax which is a massive cash cow and the exchequer is broke.
Over time, councils will make it easier for people to charge at home getting some extra % of natural growth. But until the energy cost situation is sorted - our electricity is EXPENSIVE, especially in public chargers - and this could take a very long time, then for a lot of people EVs will remain a bad fit.
Without the current wave of punitive measures, EVs would have a very similar adoption rate regardless, and I'm convinced that it will surely climb, just more slowly than they would hope. It's also okay that some people keep driving ICEs long into the future.
> Consumers accept that they can pay more for a better product, so when you compare a Model 3 to an ICE BMW 3 series, and they’re similar in price, but the Model 3 offers better technology and drive characteristics, then on balance you’re getting a better deal with the Model 3.
statements like these are what turn some people away. cz they're not sincere.
you can easily compare the costs between models within a manufacturer - BMW ICE version vs Electric version
& on a head to head basis the old guard of auto makers e.g BMW, Mercedes make better vehicles than Tesla.
UK stats are bogus because one in five new cars there are paid for by the government under the Motability scheme. What it actually costs is hard to say because we don't know where they're measuring the price at. Motability could have an agreement, or they might be not counting the motability money spent and so on.
Of course EVs are perhaps a net benefit to society (noise, pollution etc) but at least be honest about the cost trajectory.
Any article that doesn't mention the cost of motorway/dual carriage way electric charging is being disingenuous. PAYG is 75-90p/kWh currently. Tesla superchargers with a subscription 57p/kWh (you'll pay with time, due to being busy)
And do you think when EV ownership becomes more popular, the 4p/kWh home charging rate is going to stick around? That is an insane discount compared to daytime electricity.
The UK does not have a good, cheap solution plentiful cheap electric in the next decade or two, so any major increase in demand will mean even higher costs.
> The UK does not have a good, cheap solution plentiful cheap electric in the next decade or two, so any major increase in demand will mean even higher costs.
Of course it does… the UK has tariffs that change by electricity demand and supply capacity
As we build out more renewables there will be more times of excess supply and hence cheaper electricity during these times
The buildout of battery storage and north-south inter-connectors will reduce this fluctuation but it’ll still be there
Over time the UK is going to switch it’s pattern of electricity consumption
Right, brand new. But I think if the UK government want everyone to be using EVs they really need to help out the used market by incentivising it in some way. I can't get much other than a Nissan leaf or Renault Zoe under £10k second hand, or some massive SUV which I don't want. So then I'll buy an ICE powered car instead...
26 comments
[ 3.0 ms ] story [ 23.0 ms ] threadThe Honda Super-N EV will also be released in Australia, New Zealand, and other countries in Southeast Asia that were also British colonies: this decision has nothing to do with tariffs and everything to do with left-hand-drive vs. right-hand-drive.
So it's far better to sell EV below cost (Chinese or not) to get more sold than have to a pay £15k for an ICE car.
The Chinese manufacturers are arguably at double advantage here as they have more BEV to sell so it's far easier for them meet the targets, and they can 'sell' the excess to the Western manufacturers (and further subsidise their EVs!).
I'm not personally against it, I got a brand new EV on a lease recently for close to free after all the tax advantages, and it's not like the Western manufacturers didn't have time to prepare...?
Both Labour and the Conservative parties seem to have resigned the nation to only being a financial hub.
He is not even hiding the fact US automakers make a more expensive inferior product, but that US consumers should not be allowed have the superior one.
https://nationalpost.com/news/massive-risk-chinese-evs-are-t...
Hopefully this means competition with the other EV manufacturers in Canada too.
Do they operate like Tesla, or can indie garages handle repairs? How long are warranties?
Not very free market. It's basically military and intelligence budget combined. If you can hurt auto manufacturing, you further consolidate manufacturing inside China. Then if you can get people to pay for you to spy on them through their own cars, that's well spent intelligence budget. If you reduce the portion of global manufacturing outside of China, you reduce the amount of manufacturing that can quickly pivot to wartime production like we saw during World War 2.
I'm glad that we still have sane enough people in the US that we ban these obvious and transparently bad things. It wasn't that hard to see free trade died.
Hopefully people don't still think that China's green energy initiatives are about the climate. Whatever you think about those initiatives, don't let that blind you to the legitimate questions around China's motivations.
For people with a garage or a driveway who can charge at home, EVs are overwhelmingly a better option. The problem is that large swathes of the population are outside of that and you're making their lives miserable by punishing ICE car ownership.
Meanwhile, adoption numbers are thrown about ignoring that for those in optimal conditions, adoption is already very high and cannot grow much more. While for those particularly misaligned with the strengths of EVs, it will often be so painful to own one they will resist with everything they have, and in many cases they will have to admit defeat and stop driving altogether. Which I guess the government will also be content with. But it will take some time.
*typo
I think that's the plan - force adoption and double down on the misery so that people forcefully invest into building infrastructure that otherwise wouldn't have.
In other words, you're synthesizing demand. It would be extremely interesting to see how it works out! In my limited experience, these synthetic initiatives explode in costs because it lets grifters, scammers and arbitragers defraud the synthetic demand side (due to the lack of a real free market system which is naturally self calibrating and managing).
One thing that I wonder about - unlike in the U.S. where gas is cheap, my understanding is that it's around $10/gal around most of the E.U. right now? If so, what's stopping people from running towards EVs naturally?
- Is it just the lack of charging infrastructure?
- Is it because most people in the E.U. live in dense areas where it's hard to setup charging infrastructure?
- Is it because most people in the E.U. live in dense areas where public transportation is cheap on a unit "per head" basis making local governments hesitate to invest in charging infrastructure directly?
- Is it that over-regulation in the E.U. make it extremely difficult to build charging infrastructure in the first place?
From a U.S. perspective, I would imagine that most of the U.S. (especially rural and suburban US) would switch to EVs overnight if Chinese EVs were allowed to flood the market. A lot of cities in the U.S. are accommodating literally golf carts on their streets so a $10k brand new Chinese EV that you could plugin is likely to sell like hotcakes.
right now, petrol goes for ~£1.5 per litre and diesel for £1.90
that is converted to US gallons and US currency, $7.67 for petrol (gasoline) and $8.99 for diesel
> From a U.S. perspective, I would imagine that most of the U.S. (especially rural and suburban US) would switch to EVs overnight if Chinese EVs were allowed to flood the market. A lot of cities in the U.S. are accommodating literally golf carts on their streets so a $10k brand new Chinese EV that you could plugin is likely to sell like hotcakes.
Suburban, sure. I'm not sure about rural, esp in the colder areas, because it takes significant investment to deploy the amount of energy you would need to heat vehicles and still have range, so it would take a bit longer.
The main reason the market is not being taken over by cheap Chinese EVs, is that despite the best efforts from our government to destroy the ICE car industry, it still is a MUCH better product for certain niches of the market that are quite significant. So you keep punishing those people for no good reason, while the people who are a perfect fit for EVs already have them.
Meanwhile policy is all over the place with new taxes for EVs specifically paid by the mile because they are heavy and they don't pay enough road tax, and they also don't pay petrol tax which is a massive cash cow and the exchequer is broke.
Over time, councils will make it easier for people to charge at home getting some extra % of natural growth. But until the energy cost situation is sorted - our electricity is EXPENSIVE, especially in public chargers - and this could take a very long time, then for a lot of people EVs will remain a bad fit.
Without the current wave of punitive measures, EVs would have a very similar adoption rate regardless, and I'm convinced that it will surely climb, just more slowly than they would hope. It's also okay that some people keep driving ICEs long into the future.
statements like these are what turn some people away. cz they're not sincere.
you can easily compare the costs between models within a manufacturer - BMW ICE version vs Electric version
& on a head to head basis the old guard of auto makers e.g BMW, Mercedes make better vehicles than Tesla.
FIFY.
People who receive PIP can choose to use to lease a car from Motability which is an independent scheme
Those people could equally choose to have an ICE car
https://www.lingscars.com/car-lease-deals/?fuelTypes=electri...
Any article that doesn't mention the cost of motorway/dual carriage way electric charging is being disingenuous. PAYG is 75-90p/kWh currently. Tesla superchargers with a subscription 57p/kWh (you'll pay with time, due to being busy)
And do you think when EV ownership becomes more popular, the 4p/kWh home charging rate is going to stick around? That is an insane discount compared to daytime electricity.
The UK does not have a good, cheap solution plentiful cheap electric in the next decade or two, so any major increase in demand will mean even higher costs.
Of course it does… the UK has tariffs that change by electricity demand and supply capacity
As we build out more renewables there will be more times of excess supply and hence cheaper electricity during these times
The buildout of battery storage and north-south inter-connectors will reduce this fluctuation but it’ll still be there
Over time the UK is going to switch it’s pattern of electricity consumption