I've been looking for 200+ hp engine swaps for my 100 hp, 125 lb-ft of torque lifted 1986 Toyota pickup with 31" tires (like the one on Back to the Future but 1 year newer and not extended cab).
For comparison, my 2013 Nissan Leaf has 107 hp, about 200 lb-ft of torque, weighs the same 3300 lbs, and does 0-60 mph in about 7-10 seconds depending on the weather.
So even accounting for the 300-500 lb weight of the 22r engine and accessories vs 1000+ lbs of electric motor and batteries, doubling the hp would be ludicrous speed (0-60 mph under 6 seconds), by all but 2010s era EV times.
I just looked up the price of Nissan Leaf battery swaps:
24 kWh (refurbished): 84 miles of range, $3,500-$5,000
40 kWh (upgrade): 125 miles of range, $6,500-$8,000
62 kWh (advanced upgrade, requires reshaping): 195 miles of range, $12,000-$14,500
Labor: Approximately 5-7 hours of labor at $100-$150/hour, adding $500-$1,500 to the total.
I'm part of the "radical center" politically (the opposite of centrist/moderate, popularized by Thom Hartmann and others), so this disappoints both sides of my sensibilities.
An electric motor is far easier to build than a gas engine, so should cost less than a crate engine (which are typically $2,000-7,000). Of course that's limited by copper and aluminum prices (not to mention lithium for batteries). Edit: wouldn't want to forget rare earths like neodymium either!
I believe that the decades-long delay in EV manufacturing (see Who Killed the Electric Car) was a supply chain problem, not a tech problem, since we've known how to do this since the 1980s and arguably for more like a century since the first cars were EV/biofuel powered and we've had nickel-iron and sodium-sulfur batteries forever that could have done the job, but I digress.
If/when the economy crashes in 2027/2028, and after voters demand better, I'd expect a cottage industry to open up again that builds EV parts for 1/2 price or less.
Cool idea for vintage cars that were unremarkable when it came to driving characteristics or where only the frame and/or body survived with no drivetrain and hard to source donors.
Yeah, I thought of the first corvettes that had catalytic converters:
1974 models had the last true dual exhaust system that was dropped on the 1975 models with the introduction of catalytic converters requiring the use of no-lead fuel. Engine power decreased with the base ZQ3 engine producing 165 hp (123 kW; 167 PS), the optional L82's output 205 hp (153 kW; 208 PS), while the 454 big-block engine was discontinued.
" only available through approved installation centers."
This won't sell; people will just buy a crashed EV for 1/10th the cost and salvage the motor and battery. This is more of an insult than a product. It reeks of "you're not qualified to work on our premium electrons until you pay $10k and pass our one-day eCourse"
You're underestimating the complexity of doing what you're describing. There is a market for a $10k package where the communications busses are documented, everything has square plumb mounting, no fabrication is required, etc.
I have done several EV conversions using parts as you describe and there is a healthy amount of reverse engineering, defeating or replicating functions you didnt think of until it doesnt work right with modules that are expecting other modules to exist on the bus that no longer exist, and a million other things.
That's fine for a personal hobby project, but that is a very, very, very small project. The target for this kind of product is conversion shops that want to be able to offer customers tight turnarounds on vanity EV conversions with warrantees. 10k is pretty minor on that kind of project, the lead time and integration complexity is way more important.
Even if someone could buy this off she shelf and install themselves- I don't see a single use case that would make this cool at this power level (eg. EV conversions- 200hp is slow in almost anything!)
The worst part of the EV transition is that EV's naturally lend themselves to computer control, which means manufacturers can software the ever living fuck out of it, and put hard locks on everything. Even now moving to encrypted CANs so you cannot even see what your vehicle is doing.
Maybe you can make some kind of case in their defense, safety or whatever, but what makes it truly indefensible is that once the car is out of warranty, out of their liability, they're just gonna chuck the software keys in a pit and leave you with an eternally immutable half-baked design.
So unless this comes with a fully open source software package, or even no software at all and just documentation, it's a bad product and I wish the worst for it.
Everyone is talking about how only licensed installers can work on this, but the battery is also ~1.5m square. How many cars have room for that? You'd basically have to rebuild the chassis from scratch, right? I guess you could put it in the bed of a pickup...
Am I missing something or are there no clear pictures of what this actually looks like form factor wise? It seems to be going for a literal motor form factor in the pictures, with a 4-speed transmission and the batteries in the trunk? I went through the catalog [1] and it didn't really give me much of a better idea of what this is supposed to look like. I can take a good guess but you'd think they'd have a few clear pictures of the individual parts as-is.
Interesting that it's designed to connect to a 4 speed transmission. That's incredibly ancient by gas transmission technologies, even heavy duty pickups are on 10 speeds now.
Interesting. This past weekend, I got a chance to speak with Corvette's chief engineer Josh Holder at Chevrolet's Corvette Corral for the IMSA race at Laguna Seca.
I asked him if we'd see an all electric Corvette in the C8 timeframe, or would have to wait until the C9?
He confirmed (to the group) there would not be an all electric C8.
GM has long done "crate" engines, where people swap their cars OE engine for one of GM's small block v8s (an "LS or LT swap") frequently found in Corvettes, Escalades, and probably Silverado/large trucks/SUVs.
Seeing an electric crate engine from GM shows me that they plan to do the same with an electrified power train. Cool.
Man, I’m jealous of those of you who have the skills to do an ICE/BEV conversion. I have this total baseless fantasy that when I retire, I will open a little boutique shop doing conversions of old ICE vehicles into BEVs. Sadly, I have none of the skills, connections, or talent for such a thing. But in another life, it’s something I could see myself getting a real kick out of for many, many years. Having the neighbourhood kids drift in and out, call me “Old Man”, learn a thing or two.
My dad used to rebuild and flip old Daimlers and MGs back in the day on our suburban front lawn in Australia. For reasons of space, gentrification, economics, labour market changes, technological shifts, etc, that’s sadly far less common than it used to be. Such a loss.
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[ 3.5 ms ] story [ 50.3 ms ] threadI've been looking for 200+ hp engine swaps for my 100 hp, 125 lb-ft of torque lifted 1986 Toyota pickup with 31" tires (like the one on Back to the Future but 1 year newer and not extended cab).
For comparison, my 2013 Nissan Leaf has 107 hp, about 200 lb-ft of torque, weighs the same 3300 lbs, and does 0-60 mph in about 7-10 seconds depending on the weather.
So even accounting for the 300-500 lb weight of the 22r engine and accessories vs 1000+ lbs of electric motor and batteries, doubling the hp would be ludicrous speed (0-60 mph under 6 seconds), by all but 2010s era EV times.
I just looked up the price of Nissan Leaf battery swaps:
Found this page of 200 hp motors:https://electricmotors.com/200-horsepower-electric-motors.ht...
So while $27k is a lot, it's probably close to the going rate.Also I feel that these numbers are inflated, due to the US's current 100% import tariff on Chinese EVs:
https://www.utilitydive.com/news/joe-biden-china-tariff-hike...
I'm part of the "radical center" politically (the opposite of centrist/moderate, popularized by Thom Hartmann and others), so this disappoints both sides of my sensibilities.
An electric motor is far easier to build than a gas engine, so should cost less than a crate engine (which are typically $2,000-7,000). Of course that's limited by copper and aluminum prices (not to mention lithium for batteries). Edit: wouldn't want to forget rare earths like neodymium either!
I believe that the decades-long delay in EV manufacturing (see Who Killed the Electric Car) was a supply chain problem, not a tech problem, since we've known how to do this since the 1980s and arguably for more like a century since the first cars were EV/biofuel powered and we've had nickel-iron and sodium-sulfur batteries forever that could have done the job, but I digress.
If/when the economy crashes in 2027/2028, and after voters demand better, I'd expect a cottage industry to open up again that builds EV parts for 1/2 price or less.
It won't take years for they to think that they can pry in private conversations in the car for whatever purpose they want
Yeah, I thought of the first corvettes that had catalytic converters:
1974 models had the last true dual exhaust system that was dropped on the 1975 models with the introduction of catalytic converters requiring the use of no-lead fuel. Engine power decreased with the base ZQ3 engine producing 165 hp (123 kW; 167 PS), the optional L82's output 205 hp (153 kW; 208 PS), while the 454 big-block engine was discontinued.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Corvette
though GM seems to be the only american automaker that hasn't really given up on EVs
This won't sell; people will just buy a crashed EV for 1/10th the cost and salvage the motor and battery. This is more of an insult than a product. It reeks of "you're not qualified to work on our premium electrons until you pay $10k and pass our one-day eCourse"
I have done several EV conversions using parts as you describe and there is a healthy amount of reverse engineering, defeating or replicating functions you didnt think of until it doesnt work right with modules that are expecting other modules to exist on the bus that no longer exist, and a million other things.
That's fine for a personal hobby project, but that is a very, very, very small project. The target for this kind of product is conversion shops that want to be able to offer customers tight turnarounds on vanity EV conversions with warrantees. 10k is pretty minor on that kind of project, the lead time and integration complexity is way more important.
Maybe you can make some kind of case in their defense, safety or whatever, but what makes it truly indefensible is that once the car is out of warranty, out of their liability, they're just gonna chuck the software keys in a pit and leave you with an eternally immutable half-baked design.
So unless this comes with a fully open source software package, or even no software at all and just documentation, it's a bad product and I wish the worst for it.
[1] https://indd.adobe.com/view/a055533b-ed9a-4d56-84cb-5a416287...
https://edisonmotors.ca/trucks/pickup-kit/
I asked him if we'd see an all electric Corvette in the C8 timeframe, or would have to wait until the C9?
He confirmed (to the group) there would not be an all electric C8.
GM has long done "crate" engines, where people swap their cars OE engine for one of GM's small block v8s (an "LS or LT swap") frequently found in Corvettes, Escalades, and probably Silverado/large trucks/SUVs.
Seeing an electric crate engine from GM shows me that they plan to do the same with an electrified power train. Cool.
My dad used to rebuild and flip old Daimlers and MGs back in the day on our suburban front lawn in Australia. For reasons of space, gentrification, economics, labour market changes, technological shifts, etc, that’s sadly far less common than it used to be. Such a loss.