It's bizarre that the Indian subcontinent is now known for poverty, high inequality and the caste system, when its ancient civilizational counterpart seemed to be the opposite.
Genetically and linguistically, it's indisputable that the Indo-Aryan languages were transplants brought in by a small external group. This was followed by Islamic invasions and then British imperialism, followed by partition, and the recent ascendency of Hindu nationalism, yet the core people have been remarkably stable over thousands of years.
Online, at least, the levels of hatred and resentment seem off-the-charts. China, on the other hand seems to be growing by leaps-and-bounds, while India seems to be getting consumed by internal hatreds, and Pakistan seems to focus on the security threat posed by India, enriching a corrupt political and military elite at the expense of its own development.
I have to wonder if we'll ever find out the exact point where it all went wrong.
Entire civilization flourished for 2000 years and then disappeared without any clue why.
I have a pet theory about Indus Valley script - inscriptions on the seals are so short and unique because they are just name signatures, to stamp other objects.
Having to be durable, they were the only inscribed objects that survived.
They didn't disappear into thin air. Their culture syncretised with that of the incoming (or invading, depending on who you ask) Indo-Aryans, they moved southeast into the furthest bits of the Indian peninsula. The strongest hypothesis is that the IVC language, culture, and genetics is Dravidian, and the bulk of Dravidian culture today descends from the IVC.
It's a pleasant finding but not surprising. In all the excavations done over time in indus valley, they never found any weapons or any signs of war. I have this book with pretty cool illustrations if anyone wants a light read on this topic -
also:
>the material record offers indirect evidence for distributed authority. Indus seals, small stone stamps that likely facilitated exchange and credit, were found primarily in private residences at Mohenjo-daro rather than in temples or central administrative buildings.
Speculative, of course. But cool data & approach. And it doesn't have to prove anything, except that it's plausible there are other ways to structure societies, that can have different results.
This is actually a thought-provoking book and a must read. History as taught today is very much misunderstood/skewed/euro-centric and many times plain wrong. The wikipedia page itself gives the highlights and worth reading.
A very good example comes from India itself i.e. "The Paradox of Indian History" which is the dichotomy between Archeological Evidence (Indus Valley, Ashoka's inscriptions etc.) vs. Literary Evidence (Puranas, Itihasas etc.) Add to this the linguistic diversities, group/ethnic diversities and successive waves of invasions and displacements and it is enough to drive a Historian mad/happy depending upon how you look at it. The literary/linguistic evidence paints a picture of very advanced societies while the archeological evidence paints a distinctly different but again advanced societies.
Hence studies like the OP's submission are very much needed and welcome.
"Trade practices show a similar pattern. Indus seals, used for business and administration, turned up in common homes across the city. Archaeologists did not find evidence showing rulers controlled access to these objects. Standardized weights and measures spread throughout the region as well, helping create consistent trade practices."
I've done a lot of reading on this particular subject and I think the "stateless utopia" conclusion so many researchers seem to be fishing for (Graeber etc) is more nonsensical than they let on. They didn't have monumental temples or palaces, that seems to be it.
Yet there is tons of documentary evidence "Meluhha" was engaged in a pretty sophisticated scale of commodity production (artisanal carnelian beads) and export trade with Dilmun and Sumer. Their standardized weight system was used for this trade, and they're found elsewhere in large numbers as the article says. They even had expats living in Sumer who were noted as translators (of the Indus valley seals??) This trade is where a lot of their obvious wealth probably came from, since they'd have copious silver revenue from Dilmun.
"Archaeologists did not find evidence showing rulers controlled access to these objects."
Like really, think about it. These weights were very precise. And they had to be, because "weight" was basically equivalent to "money." So there had to be a standard, and that standard had to be enforced when the weights were produced. And the weights had to remain trustworthy as they were distributed elsewhere for use in the trade. Someone was obviously "in charge" lol
I don’t find that obvious from what you’ve described. Agreeing on weights and measures is well within plausibility of a society where power was pretty evenly distributed. I don’t remember Graeber and Wengrow describing it as a stateless utopia, they were a lot more academic than their detractors suggest in the usual caricatures. Is there any more evidence you’ve read about that supports this conclusion?
> Like really, think about it. These weights were very precise. And they had to be, because "weight" was basically equivalent to "money." So there had to be a standard, and that standard had to be enforced when the weights were produced. And the weights had to remain trustworthy as they were distributed elsewhere for use in the trade. Someone was obviously "in charge" lol
Not really - a trust based system would still function very well. The same reason why hawala networks and Hofläden still persist today.
Cheaters are punished by societal ostracization. Very common in Asia even today.
This could also be a story of technological progress. A thought experiment - imagine you, an archaeologist, recovered the remains of our civilization, from roughly 1925 to 2025, but the only surviving artifact was televisions. You know that televisions are valuable - initially only wealthy families had them - so you used them as a proxy for riches and plotted the Gini coefficient using just the size, quality, resolution, color depth, etc. You could conclude that our society became less unequal over that period, because you miss that technology dramatically compressed the distribution of this resource and that household wealth was freed up to put to other purposes.
> The study also raises broader questions about how early cities functioned. Archaeologists often link urban growth with centralized political power and rising social divisions. Mohenjo-daro points toward another model, one where collective governance and public investment shaped the city’s long-term stability.
Fascinating. I hope that discoveries like this increase the interest of the public in investing in historical research... so much of our theory of the world is shaped by a narrow focus on the history of areas that were easier (relatively) to study.
16 comments
[ 2.8 ms ] story [ 40.8 ms ] threadGenetically and linguistically, it's indisputable that the Indo-Aryan languages were transplants brought in by a small external group. This was followed by Islamic invasions and then British imperialism, followed by partition, and the recent ascendency of Hindu nationalism, yet the core people have been remarkably stable over thousands of years.
Online, at least, the levels of hatred and resentment seem off-the-charts. China, on the other hand seems to be growing by leaps-and-bounds, while India seems to be getting consumed by internal hatreds, and Pakistan seems to focus on the security threat posed by India, enriching a corrupt political and military elite at the expense of its own development.
I have to wonder if we'll ever find out the exact point where it all went wrong.
I have a pet theory about Indus Valley script - inscriptions on the seals are so short and unique because they are just name signatures, to stamp other objects.
Having to be durable, they were the only inscribed objects that survived.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/014345532X?ref=ppx_yo2ov_dt_b_fed_...
I am not related to the author in anyway. i heard about this book on a podcast and bought it.
also: >the material record offers indirect evidence for distributed authority. Indus seals, small stone stamps that likely facilitated exchange and credit, were found primarily in private residences at Mohenjo-daro rather than in temples or central administrative buildings.
Speculative, of course. But cool data & approach. And it doesn't have to prove anything, except that it's plausible there are other ways to structure societies, that can have different results.
In case you haven't heard of it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dawn_of_Everything
A very good example comes from India itself i.e. "The Paradox of Indian History" which is the dichotomy between Archeological Evidence (Indus Valley, Ashoka's inscriptions etc.) vs. Literary Evidence (Puranas, Itihasas etc.) Add to this the linguistic diversities, group/ethnic diversities and successive waves of invasions and displacements and it is enough to drive a Historian mad/happy depending upon how you look at it. The literary/linguistic evidence paints a picture of very advanced societies while the archeological evidence paints a distinctly different but again advanced societies.
Hence studies like the OP's submission are very much needed and welcome.
I've done a lot of reading on this particular subject and I think the "stateless utopia" conclusion so many researchers seem to be fishing for (Graeber etc) is more nonsensical than they let on. They didn't have monumental temples or palaces, that seems to be it.
Yet there is tons of documentary evidence "Meluhha" was engaged in a pretty sophisticated scale of commodity production (artisanal carnelian beads) and export trade with Dilmun and Sumer. Their standardized weight system was used for this trade, and they're found elsewhere in large numbers as the article says. They even had expats living in Sumer who were noted as translators (of the Indus valley seals??) This trade is where a lot of their obvious wealth probably came from, since they'd have copious silver revenue from Dilmun.
"Archaeologists did not find evidence showing rulers controlled access to these objects."
Like really, think about it. These weights were very precise. And they had to be, because "weight" was basically equivalent to "money." So there had to be a standard, and that standard had to be enforced when the weights were produced. And the weights had to remain trustworthy as they were distributed elsewhere for use in the trade. Someone was obviously "in charge" lol
I don’t find that obvious from what you’ve described. Agreeing on weights and measures is well within plausibility of a society where power was pretty evenly distributed. I don’t remember Graeber and Wengrow describing it as a stateless utopia, they were a lot more academic than their detractors suggest in the usual caricatures. Is there any more evidence you’ve read about that supports this conclusion?
Not really - a trust based system would still function very well. The same reason why hawala networks and Hofläden still persist today.
Cheaters are punished by societal ostracization. Very common in Asia even today.
House size/living space is far more constant. It would make a good and proxy for riches in a contemporary society too.
Fascinating. I hope that discoveries like this increase the interest of the public in investing in historical research... so much of our theory of the world is shaped by a narrow focus on the history of areas that were easier (relatively) to study.